Is God responsible for evil for not offering Beatific Vision as a gift?

[Vico]

fhansen:

Why not? People do it all the time. What they presumably learned by now, as we’re all here to learn, is why not to eat of it, why God is worthy and deserving of obedience.

Ok. Now we are back to OP. Why God didn’t then share Beatific Vision?

The Beatific Vision cannot be shared without first being established in virtue through an act of free will.

 

[fhansen]

STT:

fhansen:

Why not? People do it all the time. What they presumably learned by now, as we’re all here to learn, is why not to eat of it, why God is worthy and deserving of obedience.

Ok. Now we are back to OP. Why God didn’t then share Beatific Vision?

The Beatific Vision cannot be shared without first being established in virtue through an act of free will.

This is basically it-the will is involved. We’re essentially asked to select the “God option” first in order to see Him. We’re asked to begin to align our wills with His will first, to orient ourselves towards truth and goodness and justice. We know enough to do this; Adam knew enough to do this. And He/we should know even better now, after a sojourn from Eden.

 

[STT]

Ok. Now we are back to OP. Why God didn’t then share Beatific Vision?

Actually I still have problem with your argument since God also should have done evil before if the knowledge of evil as you said is experiencing. God said: Now they are like one of us…

 

[STT]

Moral evil is through an act of will not temptation and the pride is a temptation.

Yes, that I agree. But we act evil because we cannot resist temptation anymore. So the question is why God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve knowing the fact that they eventually sin?

 

[STT]

The Beatific Vision cannot be shared without first being established in virtue through an act of free will.

Why not? Could you please explain?

 

[STT]

I don’t know that it has any easy answer. Only that He wants us to choose good over evil based on what we know of both in this world, and not without the aid of grace, before we have the full benefit of experiencing the absolute pure good, Himself. He wants to test and refine us-to see how we’ll behave when the Master’s gone away. He brings an even greater justice and perfection out of His creation by placing it on a journey to that perfection, one which involves struggle, a struggle to do the right thing, a struggle to be just, a struggle to learn how to love rather than simply so overwhelm and saturate us with that goodness that there really is no choice, no tested and refined and increased justice in us. He wants us to play a role in it all-and that’s where our own true value is established.

Actually I think there is no answer for that. God could share Beatific Vision and solve the problem. Instead He prefer to wait for sin to happen knowing the fact that sinning is just matter of time when you are under temptation.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Moral evil is through an act of will not temptation and the pride is a temptation.

Yes, that I agree. But we act evil because we cannot resist temptation anymore. So the question is why God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve knowing the fact that they eventually sin?

There is a difference between an act of will and and involuntary act so “cannot resist temptation” indicates inability which would not be deliberate consent. The correct phrase for sin is will not resist temptation.

Note what the Catechism teaches:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

 

[Vico]

Vico:

The Beatific Vision cannot be shared without first being established in virtue through an act of free will.

Why not? Could you please explain?

The Beatific Vision (of the soul) is the immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven, not the mediate knowledge of God that the human mind knows. Those without charity cannot receive the Beatific Vision. Charity must be chosen by final perseverance which is the proof of charity through which one is crowned.

2 Timothy 2

3 Labour as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No man, being a soldier to God, entangleth himself with secular businesses; that he may please him to whom he hath engaged himself. 5 For he also that striveth for the mastery, is not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

 

[STT]

There is a difference between an act of will and and involuntary act so “cannot resist temptation” indicates inability which would not be deliberate consent. The correct phrase for sin is will not resist temptation.

Note what the Catechism teaches:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

Have you ever sinned? What happens to me when I sin is like that I am not able to resist it any more. Does it happen to you differently?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

There is a difference between an act of will and and involuntary act so “cannot resist temptation” indicates inability which would not be deliberate consent. The correct phrase for sin is will not resist temptation.

Note what the Catechism teaches:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

Have you ever sinned? What happens to me when I sin is like that I am not able to resist it any more. Does it happen to you differently?

A person that is not able to resist means that it is impossible to resist. Mortal sin requires deliberate consent and “Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man” (Catechism 1855). Venial sin is different for “Venial sin allows charity to subsist” (Catechism 1855).

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

I don’t know that it has any easy answer. Only that He wants us to choose good over evil based on what we know of both in this world, and not without the aid of grace, before we have the full benefit of experiencing the absolute pure good, Himself. He wants to test and refine us-to see how we’ll behave when the Master’s gone away. He brings an even greater justice and perfection out of His creation by placing it on a journey to that perfection, one which involves struggle, a struggle to do the right thing, a struggle to be just, a struggle to learn how to love rather than simply so overwhelm and saturate us with that goodness that there really is no choice, no tested and refined and increased justice in us. He wants us to play a role in it all-and that’s where our own true value is established.

Actually I think there is no answer for that. God could share Beatific Vision and solve the problem. Instead He prefer to wait for sin to happen knowing the fact that sinning is just matter of time when you are under temptation.

Well, sin is not inevitable or necessary. And yet it can be beneficial in terms of helping us finally come to appreciate its opposite, which is summed up best by the term “love”. Had Adam loved God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, then there would be no problem; his justice would be complete. More than likely he does just that by now.

 

[Richca]

Are the makers of axes responsible for some person who uses some axe to murder someone? No, not unless the axe maker made the axe specifically for some person to murder someone. Similarly, God created human beings with free will so that they could love him and freely follow his commandments which is natural for the will. God is not responsible for those people who abuse their will and God given freedom.

The beatific vision is not the only way to prevent evil. The human will does not sin or do evil out of necessity. It can freely do good or do evil which is why it is called a free will. Adam and Eve did not sin in the garden of Eden out of necessity, they freely chose to disobey God’s commandment. Our first parents could have not sinned, they chose otherwise. On earth, we have the possibility, not the necessity, of sinning and abusing our free will. In heaven, our free will will be perfected because we won’t have the possibility of sinning any more. Sinning is a defect of the use of our free will. Also, our Blessed Lady did not have the beatific vision while living on earth but she remained sinless her whole life long. Sinning is not natural for us, it goes against human nature. Virtue is what is in accord with our human nature.

 

[STT]

Well, sin is not inevitable or necessary. And yet it can be beneficial in terms of helping us finally come to appreciate its opposite, which is summed up best by the term “love”. Had Adam loved God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, then there would be no problem; his justice would be complete. More than likely he does just that by now.

Sin is inevitable when you are under strong temptation. Everything is just matter of time.

 

[STT]

Are the makers of axes responsible for some person who uses some axe to murder someone? No, not unless the axe maker made the axe specifically for some person to murder someone. Similarly, God created human beings with free will so that they could love him and freely follow his commandments which is natural for the will. God is not responsible for those people who abuse their will and God given freedom.

A axes maker is responsible for selling axes when he is sure that the buyer will eventually commit a sin a kill someone with axes.

The beatific vision is not the only way to prevent evil. The human will does not sin or do evil out of necessity. It can freely do good or do evil which is why it is called a free will. Adam and Eve did not sin in the garden of Eden out of necessity, they freely chose to disobey God’s commandment. Our first parents could have not sinned, they chose otherwise. On earth, we have the possibility, not the necessity, of sinning and abusing our free will. In heaven, our free will will be perfected because we won’t have the possibility of sinning any more. Sinning is a defect of the use of our free will. Also, our Blessed Lady did not have the beatific vision while living on earth but she remained sinless her whole life long. Sinning is not natural for us, it goes against human nature. Virtue is what is in accord with our human nature.

Well, according to scripture Adam and Eve where under temptation of Snake/Satan. It seems that the temptation was strong enough to make them sin.

 

[fhansen]

Sin is inevitable when you are under strong temptation. Everything is just matter of time.

That’s speculation

 

[Vico]

fhansen:

Well, sin is not inevitable or necessary. And yet it can be beneficial in terms of helping us finally come to appreciate its opposite, which is summed up best by the term “love”. Had Adam loved God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, then there would be no problem; his justice would be complete. More than likely he does just that by now.

Sin is inevitable when you are under strong temptation. Everything is just matter of time.

It depends upon if the person has sanctifying grace or not and if you are referring only to mortal sin. With sanctifying grace (lost with mortal sin) it is possible to remain in that state until death.

 

[fhansen]

STT:

fhansen:

Well, sin is not inevitable or necessary. And yet it can be beneficial in terms of helping us finally come to appreciate its opposite, which is summed up best by the term “love”. Had Adam loved God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, then there would be no problem; his justice would be complete. More than likely he does just that by now.

Sin is inevitable when you are under strong temptation. Everything is just matter of time.

It depends upon if the person has sanctifying grace or not and if you are referring only to mortal sin. With sanctifying grace (lost with mortal sin) it is possible to remain in that state until death.

STT would include Adam & Eve, before the Fall, as being subject to the inevitability of sin.

 

[STT]

That’s speculation

Have you ever been tempted to a degree that you break down and sin?

 

[STT]

It depends upon if the person has sanctifying grace or not and if you are referring only to mortal sin. With sanctifying grace (lost with mortal sin) it is possible to remain in that state until death.

So what Satan was doing there if He knew that with sanctifying grace one can resist temptation?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

It depends upon if the person has sanctifying grace or not and if you are referring only to mortal sin. With sanctifying grace (lost with mortal sin) it is possible to remain in that state until death.

So what Satan was doing there if He knew that with sanctifying grace one can resist temptation?

Yes, the angels had to cooperate with the grace of God to reach heaven and had been given sanctifying grace. They fell willingly, which means mortal sin.