Is God responsible for evil for not offering Beatific Vision as a gift?
- Status
V
Vico
Guest
Angels have a nature that is not a composite of body and soul, which composite the human person has.
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, p. 118:
Modern Catholic Dictionary
A
Aloysium
Guest
The Beatific Vision may be thought of as a state of being in which all creation participates as a manifestation of His glory. We being persons, it involves communion with God, who brings us into being within the ocean of His infinite compassion. In order for this complete and loving connection to be possible, its possession necessarily requires a contribution on our part to that relationship. The Beatific Vision is offered and ultimately bestowed upon us as a consequence of our acceptance of His Divine will.
Every creature has a will of its own, in keeping with its nature. Those beings who are below us, from the material dust of the universe to plants and animals, are a part of the eternal wonder of creation, but determined and unable to give of themselves. We and the angels above us are different in that we have a free will, which is a manifestation of our capacity to know love and act. We make of ourselves what we will in the moral universe.
The Centre of existence being Love itself, in order to know Him, all that have the capacity to do so must themselves be transformed into love. We must give ourselves totally to Him, as did the angels who followed Him. Those that did not, those messengers who chose to convey their “truth” rather than the Truth, fell as did we in following their false promises.
In a way it’s a test, but it seems more rational to think of it as the destiny for which we are meant and the reason for our existence. As did the angels before us, they at the instant of their creation and we over time, we become who we are through the exercise of our free will. Within eternity, we choose to be either with God or against Him. To be with God is to be in loving union with Him at the very Core of all His glory; against Him, we have only ourselves.
Every creature has a will of its own, in keeping with its nature. Those beings who are below us, from the material dust of the universe to plants and animals, are a part of the eternal wonder of creation, but determined and unable to give of themselves. We and the angels above us are different in that we have a free will, which is a manifestation of our capacity to know love and act. We make of ourselves what we will in the moral universe.
The Centre of existence being Love itself, in order to know Him, all that have the capacity to do so must themselves be transformed into love. We must give ourselves totally to Him, as did the angels who followed Him. Those that did not, those messengers who chose to convey their “truth” rather than the Truth, fell as did we in following their false promises.
In a way it’s a test, but it seems more rational to think of it as the destiny for which we are meant and the reason for our existence. As did the angels before us, they at the instant of their creation and we over time, we become who we are through the exercise of our free will. Within eternity, we choose to be either with God or against Him. To be with God is to be in loving union with Him at the very Core of all His glory; against Him, we have only ourselves.
Last edited:
S
STT
Guest
I am afraid that this forum is about philosophy.
A
Aloysium
Guest
A philosophy which is not grounded in reality is what is commonly referred to as a delusion.
At a certain point it is wise to broaden one’s horizons, to think outside the box, as they say.
At a certain point it is wise to broaden one’s horizons, to think outside the box, as they say.
A
ANV
Guest
God is supposed to have created the world so indirectly he is responsible for everything that was created. Without him creating the world, no evil ot suffering would have happened
G
Gorgias
Guest
ANV is supposed to have created aspects of the situation of the world (through the effects of his/her actions), so indirectly, s/he is responsible for those things created. Without him/her creating these effects in the world, none of that resulting evil or suffering would have happened.
By your own logic, ANV, it looks like you’re responsible for a whole lot of evil…
(Can you see how your logic doesn’t hold up?)
F
fhansen
Guest
I doubt that good or joy couldn’t happen without evil; everything God created is good after all. But the knowledge of evil gives us the knowledge of good, by bringing God’s creation, which, again, is all good, into contrast with anything that would detract from that goodness, i.e. with evil. Everything in Eden was good to begin with and as such goodness was not identifiable as something separate from anything else; there’d probably be no need for the word “good”, even, because everything was literally “all good”. I’m pretty well convinced, along with Aquinas in one of his treatises, that the meaning of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is that the eating of it would give Adam & Eve the direct, experiential knowledge of both, the knowledge that they and we would experience daily in this world ever since the Fall.
In any case this knowledge allows for a choice, a more informed choice, to be made between good and evil, life and death, God or no God. This information, this knowledge, was not available to Adam in his innocence-he had no need for it so long as he didn’t question God’s wisdom or authority, so long as he made the right choice to begin with IOW. Either way the Beatific Vision is the reward for right choices made, made without benefit of the full vision of God. In this way we choose justice or goodness, or we reject it, opting for evil. And in this way our cooperation in becoming just is drawn from us and we thus participate in owning it before we’re crowned with the ultimate justice, the immediate presence of God.
In any case this knowledge allows for a choice, a more informed choice, to be made between good and evil, life and death, God or no God. This information, this knowledge, was not available to Adam in his innocence-he had no need for it so long as he didn’t question God’s wisdom or authority, so long as he made the right choice to begin with IOW. Either way the Beatific Vision is the reward for right choices made, made without benefit of the full vision of God. In this way we choose justice or goodness, or we reject it, opting for evil. And in this way our cooperation in becoming just is drawn from us and we thus participate in owning it before we’re crowned with the ultimate justice, the immediate presence of God.
Last edited:
B
Benadam
Guest
As a gift the vision of God would remove choice wouldn’t it? Being irresistible and transformative
V
Vico
Guest
Specific words exist with opposites which describe notions, such as evil is the deprivation of good. Adam and Eve had the knowledge of what God commanded. For us creatures with free will, good and evil comes with creation of free will, and we do not experience the Beatific Vision initially since we are created journeying. In the Catechism:
S
STT
Guest
Weren’t Adam and Eve intellectual beings? If yes, how couldn’t they possibly know evil and good? Otherwise, there were innocent. Why then should they be held responsible for their act?
B
Benadam
Guest
they had never confronted a lie. They had never heard anything they couldn’t believe. They had no built in defense mechanism to not believe. They just had the command from God. That’s why listening was so dangerous and a sin. Eve said part of the command was to not even touch it.
Satan’s lie isn’t irresistable but it is an imitation… But it was much more so for them imo.
Satan’s lie isn’t irresistable but it is an imitation… But it was much more so for them imo.
Last edited:
V
Vico
Guest
They were given the knowledge of what God commanded, but through pride, choose to do what they wanted instead first though thought and then action. That is uncharitable and a mortal sin.fhansen:
Weren’t Adam and Eve intellectual beings? If yes, how couldn’t they possibly know evil and good? Otherwise, there were innocent. Why then should they be held responsible for their act?
F
fhansen
Guest
They wouldn’t know good and evil because they wouldn’t know evil. There’s no inherent need for evil in God’s creation. The first evil they experienced BTW was their own sin, which immediately put them in a compromised or damaged position vis a vis God and their relationship with Him. They had effectively rejected His Godhood, and this act/state was itself a matter of injustice, casting them into a very different sort of world where a rift now existed, between themselves and God, themselves and their fellow man, themselves and creation, and between and within their very own selves.
And while innocent, they weren’t ignorant of God’s command. That command was written in their hearts/consciences already. It was like the command against murder or bearing false witness or committing pedophilia that we have in our hearts now. We all know these things are intrinsically wrong; we sense it within ourselves as revulsion. And yet we can rationalize and justify any behavior, overriding any and all internal laws simply because we’re free to, by deciding, for example, that no such absolute morality exists, that our interior sense of revulsion and righteous indignation against certain acts are simply the result of social conditioning, etc. We’re free to think anything, and then to act accordingly.
Adam simply exercised that same freedom. Was he culpable in some absolute, irrevocable, sense? No, which is why God never abandoned Adam but rather sought to work with humankind, leading them to perfection/salvation over time, a perfection that would ultimately involve their making the right choice.
Last edited:
F
fhansen
Guest
I think it would be more accurate to say that free will allows for the possibility of evil, rather than to say that “good and evil comes with creation of free will”, no? Either way, yes, from the larger perspective God made His creation in a state of journeying to perfection, with Adam and Eve the first travelers. But is this world that we live in now an inevitable detour out of Eden, or just a possible one? They didn’t have to disobey, to sin.
Last edited:
B
BornInMarch
Guest
Without the ability to sin, our virtue would mean nothing because it would be the only choice. Additionally it would involve a lack of free will, which would be the same as not being alive to begin with.
V
Vico
Guest
From an eastern perspective, there is no moral evil without an act and that act is the first angelic defection, entering creation through the will: a condition (εξις) and not a nature (φύσις). It is an attraction of the will towards nothing, a negation of being, of God, of creation, of grace.Vico:
I think it would be more accurate to say that free will allows for the possibility of evil, rather than to say that “good and evil comes with creation of free will”, no? Either way, yes, from the larger perspective God made His creation in a state of journeying to perfection, with Adam and Eve the first travelers. But is this world that we live in now an inevitable detour out of Eden, or just a possible one? They didn’t have to disobey, to sin.
F
fhansen
Guest
Not sure- can the will be attracted to nothing, to negation? Didn’t both Lucifer and Adam at least think they were gaining something?fhansen:
From an eastern perspective, there is no moral evil without an act and that act is the first angelic defection, entering creation through the will: a condition (εξις) and not a nature (φύσις). It is an attraction of the will towards nothing, a negation of being, of God, of creation, of grace.Vico:
I think it would be more accurate to say that free will allows for the possibility of evil, rather than to say that “good and evil comes with creation of free will”, no? Either way, yes, from the larger perspective God made His creation in a state of journeying to perfection, with Adam and Eve the first travelers. But is this world that we live in now an inevitable detour out of Eden, or just a possible one? They didn’t have to disobey, to sin.
S
STT
Guest
Is pride evil? How could they be created good and have sense of pride?
- Status