Is God responsible for evil for not offering Beatific Vision as a gift?
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Lea101
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God is not fair as in he does give equally (worldly). According to CAF, this idea isn’t necessarily ‘perfection’ so it’s possible that he isn’t fair (eg why are people more beautiful/rich/healthy than others, why do people have more talents/spiritual gifts, why is there a hierarchy in marriage etc)
The parable you posted seems to show that God is fair in the sense that he sticks to the agreement (if I mess up, I’ll go to hell if I didn’t repent, that’s fair because I knew what I would get myself into, he didn’t surprise me with this information). That’s true.
But like I said earlier, if we are talking about equal opportunities, he technically isn’t fair because he is generous to some people (eg helping them more, worldly blessings)
The parable you posted seems to show that God is fair in the sense that he sticks to the agreement (if I mess up, I’ll go to hell if I didn’t repent, that’s fair because I knew what I would get myself into, he didn’t surprise me with this information). That’s true.
But like I said earlier, if we are talking about equal opportunities, he technically isn’t fair because he is generous to some people (eg helping them more, worldly blessings)
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Vico
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No one with the Beatific Vision would sin, however there is still free will. Those with the Beatific Vision have already passed the test proving their charity.Vico:
The main question is whether we would sin or not if we perceive Beatific Vision? If yes we all sin even after going to Heaven otherwise the question is why God didn’t share Beatific Vision knowing that we would sin.
The other question was answered in an earlier post.
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Vico
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Catechism insight:ProdglArchitect:
A car which is perfect doesn’t fail. A perfect being who is rational doesn’t sin.
302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:
By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.161
306 God is the sovereign master of his plan. But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures’ co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God’s greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.
412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’"308
1870 “God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all” (Rom 11:32).
1871 Sin is an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law (St. Augustine, Faust 22L 42, 418). It is an offense against God. It rises up against God in a disobedience contrary to the obedience of Christ.
1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. It wounds man’s nature and injures human solidarity.
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Crusaderbear
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We are meant to CHOOSE Heaven, not be handed it as the Angels were…
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
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Elf01
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However, there is more expected of the person who was given more blessings.
Luke 12:48 RSVCE
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Lea101
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Isn’t that referring to believers vs non believers? (genuinely asking)
Yes, rich people are expected to give more compared to someone living on the streets.
But my point was that the person who wasn’t given anything besides burdens…not easy to live with
Yes, rich people are expected to give more compared to someone living on the streets.
But my point was that the person who wasn’t given anything besides burdens…not easy to live with
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Elf01
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My point is though, that (I believe), based on this, that God will only judge based on what gifts / blessings we were given. I don’t think someone who was only given burdens will be judged as harshly as someone who was given many blessings.
I probably need to remember this more and act based on it.
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eddietoo
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to define evil as the opposite of good; and to then define good as the opposite of evil is a completely meaningless attempt at defining good and evil. it is an absurdity and it is an equal absurdity to think any meaningful discussion can occur with someone who defines good and evil in this way and thinks they have thus stated something with meaning.
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Vico
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Even the angels had to cooperate with the grace of God to reach heaven.
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BrunoMaria
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You keep asking same thing over and over again, which proves you are as your Avatar shows, blind on one eye and hardly seeing on the other. Alter this blindness before it’s too late!
Instead of blind, rather I’d say you don’t want to understand. Refuse all reason. Thy to find out as to who made you insist on refusal…… If you do, you’ll see a horrid image!
Beatific Vision of God is the highest award and distingtion we can ever get.
But to obtain any merit, or award, one must earn it by deeds!
Which mate or swabbie gets a distinction to be awarded Admiral, just like this, without having done and overcome a thing?! Thanks heavens no-one does!
Even your „act of free will“ doesn’t work just like this, but you got to gauge both sides, else you can’t decide.
The Angels had this challenge. Gauge between Lucifer and his legion’s proposals on one side, and God on the other.
We more or less are thanks to God’s justness, in same position.
Now you might say: Ok, but the Angels where in Beatific Vision of God in the first place. Right. But as you know, obviously the temptation to change position and convert to Lucifer’s side, was extremely strong to Creatures, Angels, who from first moment on had God in Beatific Vision and didn’t know anything else.
So, finally there where two very strong parties. God’s and Lucifer’s and a very first and very terrible war resulted between Creatures who all where immortal. Hence, none was killed in this battle; led by Arch-Angel Michael on one side, and Arch-Angel Lucifer’s legions on the other.
Lucifer should have known, that the stronger side always is the true side - the mere truth of God. Not like here on earth, where superficially seen, the weapon-stronger side wins - but finally will be judged according to TRUTH.
Lucifer’s legions where condemned to eternal withdrawal of Beatific Vision.
We with this knowledge, got it much easier, to trust THE TRUTH OF GOD. We are the next creations after the Angels, but lost the Beatific Vision forehand - because of the Original Sin we fell for, by Satan’s lie. Same lie he gathered his legions with in heaven: TO BE LIKE GOD. No-one can, No-one ever will,because God is eternal and has been before all time. He created all there is. The true as the fallen Angels, the universe with all in it, and finally us.
continued below, because I types 3323 characters - limit is 3200.
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BrunoMaria
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Our earth here, which would be a great place for a hundred times as many people as today, if we’d stick to God’s Truth and did not through greediness, hate and wars spoil it all.
But if you ask for Beatific View now, such ask for the salary before you have done something, you might get punished for so much arrogant assumption.
Imagine a mate on the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, demanding to be prompted to fleet-captain now. Then you know what your demand would mean.
Life without acts of love is dead Match the Gospel of St. James 2,17: So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith without works and I will show you faith by my works. You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that – and tremble with fear.
Yours
Bruno
But if you ask for Beatific View now, such ask for the salary before you have done something, you might get punished for so much arrogant assumption.
Imagine a mate on the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, demanding to be prompted to fleet-captain now. Then you know what your demand would mean.
Life without acts of love is dead Match the Gospel of St. James 2,17: So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith without works and I will show you faith by my works. You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that – and tremble with fear.
Yours
Bruno
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ANV
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God then would be responsible for the fate of every soul he made, without him making these souls they wouldn’t have suffered.
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ANV
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Yes I agree, they indirectly are, although the case for parents is very much different since they don’t claim to be all loving, all knowing, all powerful, so they are not in equal comparison to such a deity and them having children was a part of own choice, how society works and nature. The case for an all knowing, powerful and loving deity is different but still parents are also responsible because they acknowledged the possibility of their children suffering or going to hell or causing harm and they risked that on them once they gave them birth.
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STT
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I am not asking for my salary and I don’t think that your picture is correct.
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Vico
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Even the angels had to cooperate with the grace of God to reach heaven for they did not have the Beatific Vision.
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Gorgias
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LOL! OK, then… when your kids sin – or, more easily verifiably, when they commit an infraction of civil law – please be true to your word and turn yourself in for civil punishment!
Actually, your case is much more stringent than you think it is! If I think – with all deliberation and rational thought – that there’s the possibility of my descendants ever committing a crime (for which I’d be held responsible), then I’d necessarily have to eschew bringing them into the world, or even attempting to do so. Whoops! That’d be a real problem, for anyone who ever was a parent (or, as it were, ever participated in unprotected sex, since that would mean consent in potential criminal activity!). Your claim is interesting… but wholly untenable.
Ding ding ding! You’ve just hit upon it! Procreation – or the participation in potentially procreative activities – is inherently sinful and criminal, by your own admission! Umm… yeah. Good luck with that assertion.
So… by your assertion, all potentially fecund sexual activity is immoral. Umm… uhh…
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BrunoMaria
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Vico, what makes you think the Angels had no Beativic Vision of God? They truly did and where in closest togetherness with God. It would actually be another thread “Angels”, and I think here exists one (?)
Anyhow: We got masses of evidence in both Covenants, that Angels came as messengers of God, and brought important decisions of God - God gave them, when God Himself send them. Direct contact to God, is Beatific Vison Angels had from the beginning on when they where created.
Whilst God - the Holy Trinity, in God’s infinite power and knowledge is without any beginning, Angels were created as second beings after God. They are God’s servants and are without material. Non-material beings; same as we - the actual „WE“ is our soul“ will be non-material beings in heaven - or hell, until we get a body from where so ever - just by God’s will.
Of course, Angels had aeons before the Bible mentions them, been in large Legions with God in Beativic Vision - before Lucifer triggered the schism, which send him and his legions down to earth as Christ mentioned in Luke 10,18 - quoting Isaiah 14,12. Much later Satan and his legions were send to hell, the earth renewed and first people where created.
The spaces of time when was what, are to us - as we compared with Angels just live a moment’s time, unthinkable, and we must not ponder about things we anyhow see clearly only when we are in heaven.
Very many humans had direct contact with Angels - see holy Mary in Announciation in Luke 1,30. He, Arch-Angel Gabriel, was send by The Holy Spirit.
Yours
Bruno
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