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Counterpoint
Guest
Is God’s efficacious grace irresistible? If not, why not?
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oldcelt
Guest
If anything is created in such a way as to make it irresistible, then it follows that it violates free will. This would be particularly true when the creator happens to be the Deity.
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Richca
Guest
hello counterpoint,
Efficacious grace as understood by some Thomists, Augustinians, Molinists, and others is irresistable, it infallibly produces its effect. Now no catholic theologian would probably deny that God can give a grace to a person which will infallibly produce an effect and which is irresistable and which does not violate a person’s free will. This kind of grace though is extraordinary as Fr. William Most points out and outside God’s ordinary providence. The official teaching of the Catholic Church is that grace is resistable and that it requires the cooperation of man’s free will to be effective:
“Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom” (CCC#1993).
“God’s free initiative demands man’s free response” (CCC#2002)
“When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.” (CCC#1993).
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Counterpoint
Guest
It doesn’t violate an individual’s free will if he or she does not want to resist it.
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Counterpoint
Guest
This implies that God has the power to save everyone (without violating anyone’s free will).
What parent wouldn’t save his child if it were in his power to do so?
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Why would anyone posit an idea about God that ends up making him so small?
Resistance is futile.
How different is this God than say, the Dear Leader of North Korea in this case?
Resistance is futile.
How different is this God than say, the Dear Leader of North Korea in this case?
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oldcelt
Guest
That was Aquinas’ attempt to explain it and still allow for free will, and a rather odd one IMHO.
If something is irresistible and created by the Deity, then that precludes free will. Efficacious grace is not irresistible if it also permits free will.
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oldcelt
Guest
From what I was taught about the Christian God, if you assume Him to be our parent, there is at least one.
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Counterpoint
Guest
Do you believe that God is the final cause?
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Counterpoint
Guest
Do you believe free will presupposes final causality (teleology)?
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Counterpoint
Guest
There are some Christians (admittedly, a small minority) who teach universal reconciliation.
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oldcelt
Guest
If the choice is made on the basis of true free will, untainted by outside influence like a god, then yes. Free will should be exactly that with no explanation needed.
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StrawberryJam
Guest
I believe that Catholic theology allows for one to believe that God is the final cause.
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littlestsouls2
Guest
Fr. William Most has written well on this subject. If you search the EWTN library you will find several of his articles about effiacious grace, sufficient grace etc. He certainly raises many valid points against common interpretations of Aquinas.
Ordinarily, grace can be resisted, but a number of theologians say that there are extraordinary graces that infallibly produce their intended effect, though without destroying free will. How this works, I do not know… and if I somehow could, I doubt it would be easy to explain!
In his work, ‘Grace, Predestination and the Salvific Will of God,’ Fr. William Most provides the following anecdote, which I believe is as far as most of us should probe into this intellectually exhausting topic: "One day, when the thought of the mystery of predestination caused St. Rose of Lima to fear greatly, Jesus said to her: 'My daughter, I condemn only those who will to be condemned. Therefore, from today forth banish from your mind all uneasiness on this point.’ "
St. Alphonsus does not go into great philosophical depth about the topic of predestination, but he does indirectly provide an alternative to (in)sufficient and efficacious grace:
catholictreasury.info/books/prayer/pr16.php (This is a good read!)
Ordinarily, grace can be resisted, but a number of theologians say that there are extraordinary graces that infallibly produce their intended effect, though without destroying free will. How this works, I do not know… and if I somehow could, I doubt it would be easy to explain!
In his work, ‘Grace, Predestination and the Salvific Will of God,’ Fr. William Most provides the following anecdote, which I believe is as far as most of us should probe into this intellectually exhausting topic: "One day, when the thought of the mystery of predestination caused St. Rose of Lima to fear greatly, Jesus said to her: 'My daughter, I condemn only those who will to be condemned. Therefore, from today forth banish from your mind all uneasiness on this point.’ "
St. Alphonsus does not go into great philosophical depth about the topic of predestination, but he does indirectly provide an alternative to (in)sufficient and efficacious grace:
catholictreasury.info/books/prayer/pr16.php (This is a good read!)
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oldcelt
Guest
The bolded paragraph is a problem that the Church has had. When people throughout history have pointed out some of the really difficult questions, they offer an overly simplistic answer, let a mystic speak infallibly, or call it a mystery. Nothing can be irresistible if there is true free will.
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simpleas
Guest
I think its interesting what Fr Rohr teaches about Grace :
The goodness of God fills all the gaps of the universe, without discrimination or preference. God is the gratuity of absolutely everything. The space in between everything is not space at all but Spirit. God is the “goodness glue” that holds the dark and light of things together, the free energy that carries all death across the Great Divide and transmutes it into Life. When we say that Christ “paid the debt once and for all,” it simply means that God’s job is to make up for all the deficiencies in the universe. What else would God do?
Grace is not something God gives; grace is who God is. Grace is God’s official job description. Grace is what God does to keep all things that God has created in love alive—forever. If we are to believe the primary witnesses—the mystics, the saints, the transformed people—an unexplainable goodness is at work in the universe. (Some of us call this phenomenon God, but that word is not necessary. In fact, sometimes it gets in the way of the experience, because too many have named God something other than Grace.)
The goodness of God fills all the gaps of the universe, without discrimination or preference. God is the gratuity of absolutely everything. The space in between everything is not space at all but Spirit. God is the “goodness glue” that holds the dark and light of things together, the free energy that carries all death across the Great Divide and transmutes it into Life. When we say that Christ “paid the debt once and for all,” it simply means that God’s job is to make up for all the deficiencies in the universe. What else would God do?
Grace is not something God gives; grace is who God is. Grace is God’s official job description. Grace is what God does to keep all things that God has created in love alive—forever. If we are to believe the primary witnesses—the mystics, the saints, the transformed people—an unexplainable goodness is at work in the universe. (Some of us call this phenomenon God, but that word is not necessary. In fact, sometimes it gets in the way of the experience, because too many have named God something other than Grace.)
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littlestsouls2
Guest
I see what you mean.
Interestingly, in Heaven the blessed will love God spontaneously and perfectly; they will be drawn to Him like moths to the flame. Perhaps (in the extraordinary ways of Providence) God has a similar way of removing our resistance to Him? After all, evil is not a substance; it is merely the privation of being and perfection. Subsequently, it seems that God could fill our emptiness (with His grace), so to speak, thus drawing us to Himself, without hindrance. This might seem absurd as it seems to destroy free will; but this is not enough to discredit such a possibility, for one could just as easily argue that free will (for us) cannot exist due to the will’s inability to rise from potency to act without the assistance of the divine power.
Ultimately, our understanding is fallible; certain paradoxes and contradictions might only be apparent.
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Counterpoint
Guest
Final causality itself requires an explanation. What is this teleological cause?
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Counterpoint
Guest
Well, if God is the final cause and the final cause is what it is ultimately determining your free will (endowing it with some ultimate purpose), then how would it be possible not to act in accordance with it? Indeed, how would it be possible to act at all?
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Richca
Guest
hello counterpoint,
You make a good point here. However, it would be against the very nature of human beings whom God has created with free will to always move them infrustrably and irresistably. God would be contradicting the very nature He created if he always moved human beings with an irresistable grace. As St Augustine said. “God created us without us, but He will not save us without us.” God saves the willing, not the unwilling.
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