Is Guitar mass okay

[Lormar]

Well this woman in her sixties hated guitar Masses back then and still does today. And I still go to Mass.

In my opinion, it is time they retired the guitar permanently from Mass, but no one consulted me, so it remains my opinion.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

I guess you haven’t heard that St. Therese of Lisieux is a doctor of the church.

 

[babochka]

The answer is related to the above paragraph. What atmosphere does guitar music create. In general, the guitar(and drums, saxophones, etc.) do not inspire reverence. Why? The reason is mostly because of their use. Guitars and other said instruments are used commonly in non-liturgical music. And, at least in the Latin Rite, their use has mostly been secular. If you heard the music of a guitarist or sax player on the street, nothing would be out of the ordinary. Because they are so commonly used in profane (the real meaning of this word is worldly ) music, they do not set the mass apart or create a holy and sacred atmosphere for worship.

This was once true of the organ, precisely because of its association with the profane. It was not until the 12th century that the organ was universally acceptable in the west. The Byzantine East has retained the prohibition against musical instruments in general.

From the Catholic Encyclopeda:

In the early centuries the objection of the Church to instrumental music applied also to the organ, which is not surprising, if we remember the association of the hydraulus with theatre and circus. According to Platina (“De vitis Pontificum”, Cologne, 1593), Pope Vitalian (657-72) introduced the organ into the church service. This, however, is very doubtful. At all events, a strong objection to the organ in church service remained pretty general down to the twelfth century, which may be accounted for partly by the imperfection of tone in organs of that time. But from the twelfth century on, the organ became the privileged church instrument, the majesty and unimpassioned character of its tone making it a particularly suitable means for adding solemnity to Divine worship.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Also, Palestrina is a composer of sacred polyphony, which is considered one of the greatest forms of Catholic music.
Why do people keep insisting that music at Mass is a matter of taste and preference? That is just false.
http://m.ncregister.com/daily-news/...rvel-of-polyphony-and-the-timelessness-of-sac

 

[thistle]

The special place of the pipe organ in the musical tradition of the Roman Rite is written in the Church’s Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium.

120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.

But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

That is not a Church teaching.

 

[thistle]

Is the catechism the only source of Church teachin?

Yes with regard to anything that binds Catholics.

 

[quies]

Just jumping in with a pic of the Hazel Wright Pipe Organ at Orange County’s Christ Cathedral…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

According to Wiki: “…one of the world’s largest pipe organs. As of 2019, it has 293 ranks and 17,106 pipes, fully playable from two 5-manual consoles…”

Maybe that organ is the cause of all those California earthquakes?!

…But impressive, eh? Wonder what “Green Onions” would’ve sounded like if Booker T. & the M.G.'s had had that baby in the old Stax Records studios?!

 

[tafan2]

Really? Sola Catatica? Can you give me the paragraph of the CCC that says that?

 

[Peeps]

Yeah well, when have you heard classical guitar at Mass? And why would it be replacing the organ? Because it can’t.

I’m in late on this thread and I’m sure others have said the same thing.

Why would guitar replace the organ?

Because there are a lot more people who play the guitar competently than have ever TOUCHED the organ, let alone know how to play it well enough to play it well.

Learning to play the organ is horrendously expensive and practically difficult.

First, you have to find a teacher, who will charge a minimum of $50/hour for a lesson.

Second, you have to find an organ to practice on. Let’s say you’re a 12 year old pianist who found an organ teacher and now you want to practice on your parish organ for an hour every day, and extra on Saturdays. LOTSA LUCK! To begin with, no parish with any brains will allow a minor to be ALONE in their nave/choir loft/organ loft! NOPE, ain’t happenin, especially since the latest story is that the Catholic Church will pay billions of dollars in damages to sexual assault victims.

So third, you have to keep looking to find an organ to practice on, and there are plenty for sale–for several thousand dollars or more. A guitar can be purchased for a few hundred or less if you can find someone who just wants to get rid of their guitar because they never learned to play it–and there are scads of those people!

Fourth, you have to maintain your interest in the organ, and that’s not always easy, because you can’t just whip out your organ and play it whenever you feel mellow.

It’s just not an easy thing, Loud-iving dogma. I am a pianist who has played in church since childhood. Eight years ago in 2011, I decided that I wanted to learn how to play the organ so that I would be able to accompany even the most traditional Masses. My lessons cost $260/month. I had to get out of work early to be able to practice on my parish organ, and usually I was only allowed to be there for an hour or less, as there were always funerals or other activities in the nave, or the parish was closed for the day (they close at 4:00 p.m.). So I had to scrounge around to find another organ, and thankfully, an older friend who is organist at a Lutheran church got me in to practice at her church almost every day–I was able to just walk in and start practicing! No wonder Lutheran churches generally have more organ music!

It took me TWO YEARS (remember, I’m a pianist with a lot of experience and ability–even majored in it in college for a year!) to get to the point where I could play in Mass, and even then, I was horrifically nervous because organs can be cantankerous! (Sometimes pipes get clogged with dust, or the power to a certain stop goes out and it doesn’t work, etc.).

(continued next post)

 

[Peeps]

(continued from last post)

Eventually I got to the place where I can comfortably play hymns, but I have to practice in advance to make sure the registration is correct. I have pre-sets on my parish organ, but I don’t trust that they will always be there, so I HAVE to practice in advance, and I CAN’T do that before Mass because people who are praying in the pews don’t really want to hear the organist trying out registrations that sound like baying wildebeests and North Atlantic foghorns, and playing pedal passes that don’t work because I have arthritis in my knees and one foot, and I have to work really really hard to play pedals!

And then you have the priests in certain parishes who tell me that “we really don’t like the pipe organ played loud.” SO SAD! The instrument is not meant to be played softly, like a…guitar. But I have to obey the priests. I’m not in charge of the Church.

Anyway, I love playing the organ and wish I had more time and more money to develop my abilities. But I hope this post has opened your eyes (and everyone else’s)–organists are rare these days. Read the AGO publications, and you’ll see that there are very few organ majors in colleges and the numbers have dropped every year for decades. Unless Catholic churches wake up and start encouraging and HELPING young people to learn the organ, you won’t see it in any parishes other than the “tourist” parishes in the Big Cities.

 

[thistle]

Really? Sola Catatica? Can you give me the paragraph of the CCC that says that?

The CCC summaries all Church teachings, both infallible and non-infallible, plus disciplines.
I should have added that Catholics are also bound by Canon Law but that does not contain any teachings that are not in the CCC.

I’m not sure if you are asking if we are bound by the teachings contained in the CCC or if we have teachings outside the CCC that binds Catholics.

If you know teachings of the Church that binds Catholics I am happy for you to show them to me.

You should read the Apostolic Constitution written by the Pope at the beginning of the CCC.

 

[tafan2]

I am asking a very simple question. If the Catechism has all of the Church’s teachings, you can only know that if the Church teaches that. Which means it must be in the Catechism. So what paragraph number states this?

I think we are bound by the teachings of the Second Vatican Council. You have been given the quote from the council that the organ takes preference over other instruments.

 

[thistle]

I am asking a very simple question. If the Catechism has all of the Church’s teachings, you can only know that if the Church teaches that. Which means it must be in the Catechism. So what paragraph number states this?

I think we are bound by the teachings of the Second Vatican Council. You have been given the quote from the council that the organ takes preference over other instruments.

There is no such paragraph, obviously and nor does there need to be.

Show me the paragraph that states we are bound by the teachings of the Second Vatican Council.

Some words from Pope Benedict on Vatican II:

“Where the Council was not teaching on matters of faith and morals, such as where it was describing contemporary conditions or offering recommendations for renewal, its statements are to be received with respect and gratitude but are not necessarily flawless in either their factual accuracy or their prudential judgment.”

In short, anything about musical instruments is not binding as it is not a matter of a faith or morals.

 

[tafan2]

There is no such paragraph, obviously and nor does there need to be.

If the CCC contains every teaching of the Church, it seems like it should say so. Otherwise, how would we know it does?

 

[tafan2]

Where the Council was not teaching on matters of faith and morals, such as where it was describing contemporary conditions or offering recommendations for renewal, its statements are to be received with respect and gratitude but are not necessarily flawless in either their factual accuracy or their prudential judgment.”

I never said the statement about organs by the council was infallible, I said I feel we bound by them. I can see even that was too far. Still, it cannot lightly be disregarded.

 

[Lea101]

Prior to joining CAF, I didn’t know there are Catholics who feel strongly about this issue.

I’ve attended Mass which had guitars before. I think it’s pretty rigid to expect a certain instrument especially since there are Masses that aren’t held in physical churches. I grew up in a Catholic girls school, and when we had Masses in school halls, we used a simple piano. For youth masses that were held in smaller rooms, guitars and even drum sets were used because of the availability and ease of transporting.

I don’t think we cared about the instruments. The bigger factor for us is how everyone else sang and behaved during Mass. No point having an esteemed organ when everyone sounds tired and unhappy,lol.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

tafan2:

I am asking a very simple question. If the Catechism has all of the Church’s teachings, you can only know that if the Church teaches that. Which means it must be in the Catechism. So what paragraph number states this?

I think we are bound by the teachings of the Second Vatican Council. You have been given the quote from the council that the organ takes preference over other instruments.

There is no such paragraph, obviously and nor does there need to be.

Show me the paragraph that states we are bound by the teachings of the Second Vatican Council.

Some words from Pope Benedict on Vatican II:

“Where the Council was not teaching on matters of faith and morals, such as where it was describing contemporary conditions or offering recommendations for renewal, its statements are to be received with respect and gratitude but are not necessarily flawless in either their factual accuracy or their prudential judgment.”

In short, anything about musical instruments is not binding as it is not a matter of a faith or morals.

CCC 1158
CCC 1191

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal spells out the Church’s norms.
Or should people just ignore the GIRM because the contents are not duplicated in the CCC?

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...bout-the-catechism-of-the-catholic-church.cfm

See number 12.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

A longer discussion from the Vatican on the CCC which discusses music in the liturgy and references Sacrosanctum Concilium, and reiterates that the pipe organ should be held in high esteem.

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/details/ns_lit_doc_20120404_come-celebrare2_en.html

 

[Welshrabbit]

Now THAT is a work of art!

I may have to drop by and see it next time I’m in California. That is impressive!