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Mannyfit75
Guest
I’m a dissenter when it comes to style of music of the Mass. I don’t think guitar’s are proper. I think Gregorian or more tradition music should be used. If possible chanting with be even much better. Call me old fashion Catholic though, I was born in 1975…
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pilgrimR
Guest
Guitars are instruments, not a style. Perhaps most liturgies that have guitars leading the music feature music in a particular style, but that is the choice of those who have chosen the music, not a product of the guitars that lead the music.
In our parish, we do the Christmas novena in the latter part of Advent. The musical style of the antiphons and the prophecies is chant and is lead very tastefully with guitar. The lead instrument is the assembly’s combined voices though. The guitar supports them.
Thanks
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
And remember, “Silent Night” was orignally played on the guitar, according to legend.
I have also heard an excellent version of “Veni, Veni Emmanuel” on guitar.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
<<Yes, the guitar is unquestionably a secular instrument in this country,>>
Speaking as a musician with a master’s in the subject, ALL musical instruments were at one time “secular.”
Even the organ was originally used in the pagan games and circuses.
Speaking as a musician with a master’s in the subject, ALL musical instruments were at one time “secular.”
Even the organ was originally used in the pagan games and circuses.
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pilgrimR
Guest
Here, I assume, you are reacting to the choice of repertoire by the persons planning the music for the liturgies. I have also seen in this thread the point made more than once that even when the organ is used, sometimes it is as ridiculous as the examples you have provided. Again because of the hymns chosen (can you call them hymns when they are not appropriate in sacred settings?)
I think that choice of instrument is secondary to choice of music and the reverence with which it is lead. We have all had too many experiences where we have felt that the music is inappropriate and/or that it was not lead reverently and perhaps that happens more often (overwhelmingly?) when the guitar is the lead accompaniment.
I have no choice which instrument to lead with. My only talent that can be publicly used is for guitar and I lead the choir. My only choices are (1) to keep going and choose the best hymns available to my parish or (2) to quit and let someone else do it.
I chose number one!
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Sarabande
Guest
I don’t believe you to be a dissenter. I actually think there are more people out there who have similar thoughts - at least the people I know. What you want is the ideal. Where I attend mass and also work as a musician, we never have guitars - always organ and at our high masses, a choir, which does chant, polyphony and other appropriate sacred choral works. I am very fortunate in that and very thankful that I live in a city where I can experience this and be a part of. But there are many parishes which don’t have the resources, instruments or talent to effectively produce what is ideal. So, you have to work with what you have. It wouldn’t be right to deny them of music altogether if they don’t have those resources. Those who rely on sacred music to pray need something to help them. And as I always state, anything badly played - organ, voice, guitar, etc. - will always sound bad no matter how beautiful the composition.
Given the choice with a horrific “organist” who knows nothing about music, or a choir that sounds like a bunch of fighting cats to a guitarrist who has mastered the art of performing the guitar, such as our forum friend, Guitar, playing hymns or other appropriate works classical or otherwise, I would go with the guitarrist. I have just as much respect for someone who has mastered any instrument and play with equal reverence as someone who has mastered the organ or the voice.
Perhaps it’s not the “ideal”, especially if you are in a large church/cathedral or older church that lends itself better to a majestic instrument like an organ and a choir. But that talented guitarrist/musician is certainly someone who can truly get across the spirituality in musical prayer during mass much more effectively than the former choices. Otherwise, I’ll be praying to keep my mind off of the disruptive noise. Whereas, the latter will actually aid in my focus on the mass rather than take away from it.
BTW - I’m also considered old-fashioned and grew up in the 80s/90s as well.
And given my preferred ideal - I LOVE Rennaissance polyphony, choral motets from various centuries, chant and gloriously played organ music along with any other instrument that supplements the organ and choir. But I can certainly get spiritual inspiration from any well-played instrument which can play with reverence.
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
I notice you haven’t posted much.
You’re taking me wrong, and getting upset for no reason. You also seem to be taking a general thread as personal criticism.
I, too, think the choice of instrument is secondary to the choice of music. If you read my posts before and after the extreme examples (which were to make a point), you would know that.
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Sarabande
Guest
You know… I am admittedly one of those kids who actually liked Elvis’ music growing up (my mother loved his music and corny movies - I couldn’t escape it. She wanted me so badly to be born on January 8th when she went into labor - I was born on the 9th) He actually did do a good job and would have liked that as a nice secular song, but I would not want that during mass.
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
It isn’t Elvis. It’s the material. It’s from what was known as the FEL Hymnal (although I don’t think Ray Repp got his due for “What A Great Thing It Is” published in the same songbook).
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Sarabande
Guest
Oh, I know you weren’t putting down Elvis. haha!
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pilgrimR
Guest
Nope, not upset and not taking things personally.
And sorry that I do not have time to post too often.
I am somewhat frustrated though at the predicament in which I find myself. I truly do want to lead music well at Mass. I am continually dissatisfied with the musical offerings in the hymnal and do so long to help my parish worship almighty God and get caught up in that worship.
And I do truly believe that I can serve God in this way using the talents with which He has blessed me. That means for me using the guitar to lead the music.
I don’t really want to hear that my instrument is inappropriate!
Thanks
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pilgrimR
Guest
I would like to try to put chant into the repertiore at my parish, but have not found the resources to do so effectively. In particular, I would like to have a setting of the entrance antiphons for the four weeks of Advent that the choir (and effentually the assembly!) could sing those Sundays.
Last year someone in the forums recommended a book that had these in the Gregorian chant. My choir found them very difficult to learn though and objected to the fact that they were in Latin.
So, I thought that I could take the English and fit it to the chant itself. But that didn’t work too well. Of course, the problem is that if you have music and try to fit the words to it, you are serving the music and not the words. For me though, the words are the primary element. So, now, in order to get this task done, it seems that I need to learn how to compose chant in the Gregorian style. I am completely at a loss as to how to gain that skill.
Oh the whoa’s of a semi-talented choir leader.
Oh, yes and I would accompany the chant with a simple setting on … guitar!
Have a great Sunday!
Last year someone in the forums recommended a book that had these in the Gregorian chant. My choir found them very difficult to learn though and objected to the fact that they were in Latin.
So, I thought that I could take the English and fit it to the chant itself. But that didn’t work too well. Of course, the problem is that if you have music and try to fit the words to it, you are serving the music and not the words. For me though, the words are the primary element. So, now, in order to get this task done, it seems that I need to learn how to compose chant in the Gregorian style. I am completely at a loss as to how to gain that skill.
Oh the whoa’s of a semi-talented choir leader.
Oh, yes and I would accompany the chant with a simple setting on … guitar!
Have a great Sunday!
W
Wolseley
Guest
Your mother would undoubtedly love this priest then:
antoniupetrescu.com/
His night job: antoniupetrescu.com/fotografie.php
His day job: antoniupetrescu.com/sacerdote.php
Sorry the site is in Italina, but he doesn’t have an English translation.
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pnewton
Guest
I have used these three in the last month. One of my favorite guitar pieces is “O Sanctissima”.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Try to get a copy of the the 1940 Episcopalian hymnal. Most of the common Gregorian chants (e.g. the Sequences) have been translated into English with modern musical notation. My cathedral choir used this hymnal for about ten years before we were allowed to use Latin. Also, Worship III has modern notation for the Latin chants. Also consider the use of the Taize hymnals as a means of transitioning into Latin chant.I would like to try to put chant into the repertiore at my parish, but have not found the resources to do so effectively. In particular, I would like to have a setting of the entrance antiphons for the four weeks of Advent that the choir (and effentually the assembly!) could sing those Sundays.
Last year someone in the forums recommended a book that had these in the Gregorian chant. My choir found them very difficult to learn though and objected to the fact that they were in Latin.
So, I thought that I could take the English and fit it to the chant itself. But that didn’t work too well. Of course, the problem is that if you have music and try to fit the words to it, you are serving the music and not the words. For me though, the words are the primary element. So, now, in order to get this task done, it seems that I need to learn how to compose chant in the Gregorian style. I am completely at a loss as to how to gain that skill.
Oh the whoa’s of a semi-talented choir leader.
Oh, yes and I would accompany the chant with a simple setting on … guitar!
Have a great Sunday!
S
Strummer
Guest
Those who focus at all upon the instrumentation miss the point entirely. Any question about liturgical music should focus first, foremost, and practically exclusively upon the music. The instrumentation is merely the vehicle for delivering that music. I cannot think of any instrument which cannot, in the hands of a good musician, be bent to glory of God. Not long ago, I would’ve been among those who thought the electric guitar had no place in the liturgy but I heard one played by a fine musician who never played in any attention-getting way. Rather, he played quiet “responses” to the melodies which echoed and lifted the music higher and eased our voices out as well. I grant that this was an NO Mass but I also hold that it was reverant and packed.
If we continue this needless focus upon instrumentation, what is to prevent us from then turning our attention against those with odd voices from being lector? Or perhaps the sad limp of an child born with a birth defect might make him ineligible to be an altar server for his lack of “perfection”? No, we should focus on the destination the liturgy gives us. If the road is true, it does not matter what vehicle we take.
If we continue this needless focus upon instrumentation, what is to prevent us from then turning our attention against those with odd voices from being lector? Or perhaps the sad limp of an child born with a birth defect might make him ineligible to be an altar server for his lack of “perfection”? No, we should focus on the destination the liturgy gives us. If the road is true, it does not matter what vehicle we take.
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Hello,
This is the MASS! It demands absolute sacredness and solemnity and anything less is inadequate, inappropriate and intolerable.
I agree to a certain extant that primary emphasis must be placed upon the music over that of the instruments. But in both cases it must never be forgotten:
This is the MASS! It demands absolute sacredness and solemnity and anything less is inadequate, inappropriate and intolerable.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
OK, let’s drop back 500 years. There were shawms, rebecs, recorders, crumhorns, etc. There was popular music - madrigals as opposed to motets. Composers like Gabrielli and Monteverdi used the popular dance tunes as the framework upon which they composed Masses. When was the last time you heard a shawm, rebec, recorder, or crumhorn used at Mass?
I live in Louisiana. I grew up in New Orleans. I’ve seen/heard Jazz funerals - even before Vatican II. We have a lot of African-American Catholics here. It’s not an either/or situation but rather a both/and. It’s not the instrument but rather the intent. Ever heard a saxophone and organ prelude? I have. It’s not the instrument, it is the way the instument is used.
We have 1500 years of Catholic music. Why are we throwing out the baby with the bathwater?
I live in Louisiana. I grew up in New Orleans. I’ve seen/heard Jazz funerals - even before Vatican II. We have a lot of African-American Catholics here. It’s not an either/or situation but rather a both/and. It’s not the instrument but rather the intent. Ever heard a saxophone and organ prelude? I have. It’s not the instrument, it is the way the instument is used.
We have 1500 years of Catholic music. Why are we throwing out the baby with the bathwater?
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pnewton
Guest
I do not think every Mass is a solemnity. That is a specific type of Mass. Some are also feasts. In fact, for centuries the liturgical calendar has included both times of mourning and repentance and times celebration. I would not consider “Ode to Joy” solemn, for example, but it is highly appropriate for Easter. Both the liturgical date and the position in the liturgy can dictate the tone of appropriate music.
While on the subject of appropriate, large type, bold type and All caps are considered shouting.
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