Is guitar music OK at Mass?

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

No, he is being accepting of other tastes. He does now have low expectations of others.

 

[anamchara]

Hello,

We are those in the Church. Them are those who are new to the Church.

 

[anamchara]

Well, if you think Father Corapi is not an orthodox Catholic Priest, well that explains ALOT!

Oh, nice try again. I didn’t say he wasn’t an orthodox priest. Do you actually read all the words someone posts?

And it is not pride, it is know what a person is actually capable of, and it is not limited to ho-humming jingles and dance numbers, nor the level of English used in the funny pages!

Capable of what YOU want them to do. Heaven for bid if they don’t agree with you. Wow, what a black and white world you live in coder. Someone doesn’t like what you like so they must be dancing to silly jingles in their parish and having low expectations of people.

You need some prayers and this thread needs to get back on topic!

I’m done with this thread folks!

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Oh I’m sure they can’t wait for you to teach them you should let the Pope know that you will be the one to educate all the new people.

I am not the Church, but merely a member of It. And I DO know enough to catechize a person; at least I can instruct them on the Real Presence.

This tactic of yours is getting old. No where in this thread do I ever suggest I have low expectations of the faithful. My posts can stand by this and I have faith others will see this. Nice try though

You have suggested that people shouldn’t be expected to know their parts in Latin because that is an elitist attitude. If you think that, it is logic to conclude then that the normal mode is to not being able or expected to learn their parts in Latin - which is a low expectation of others.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Oh, nice try again. I didn’t say he wasn’t an orthodox priest. Do you actually read all the words someone posts?

You said:

Instead of listening to every little thing Father Corapi says you might want to take a look at Church teaching on pride.

That reads to me like you think that Father Corapi doesn’t teach what the Church teaches.

Capable of what YOU want them to do. Heaven for bid if they don’t agree with you. Wow, what a black and white world you live in coder. Someone doesn’t like what you like so they must be dancing to silly jingles in their parish and having low expectations of people.

Capable of basic learning skills. Would you trust your car to some yo-yo who doesn’t know a spark plug from a fuel filter? Would you go to a doctor who couldn’t use a stethoscope? We expect people to know certain things and behave in certain ways all the time in our lives - why not in the one area that actually matters?

Wow, what a black and white world you live in coder.

Christ said, say yes when you mean yes and no when you mean no and all else is from the evil one. Gray is satan’s favorite color.

You need some prayers and this thread needs to get back on topic!

It’s always humorous to have someone say “I’ll pray for you” pejoratively - especially after they accuse you of pride and elitism.

 

[pnewton]

Hello,

Is it necessary to know Latin to join the Catholic Church - no. Just like it is not necessary to know what the teaching on the Immaculate Conception is to join. But would you consider a Catholic well catechized if they don’t what the Immaculate Conception is?

There is a quantum difference. The Immaculate Conception is dogma which must be believed with faith. One can not be Catholic and reject the Immaculate Conception, but can be Catholic and refuse to learn Latin. I have no object to the learning of Latin, but I see no point in learning responses in Latin that one never uses. That seems like useless memorization for the common parishoner that attends Mass in the vernacular.

 

[sphilomena]

Match, meet gasoline. :

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

There is a quantum difference. The Immaculate Conception is dogma which must be believed with faith. One can not be Catholic and reject the Immaculate Conception, but can be Catholic and refuse to learn Latin. I have no object to the learning of Latin, but I see no point in learning responses in Latin that one never uses. That seems like useless memorization for the common parishoner that attends Mass in the vernacular.

I think this analogy my have failed to bring out the point I was aiming for. I was trying to show that while it is not a requirement to know Latin to join the Church, a Catholic in the course of his catechetical training, as part of learning the Mass, should learn his parts in Latin.

This point is part of the teaching of the Church. Both the Second Vatican Council and just about every document on the Liturgy since have stated that the laity should learn their parts for the Mass in Latin.

That’s the point I was trying to make. I hope this clarifies it for you.

 

[BostonMyrtleBea]

Unfortunately in the english mass they use electric bass and drums (horrible,horrible) the difference in the music is night and day, with the english mass sounding just awful, almost protestant sounding.

I was just complaining about this (and other things) in a recent post. I HATE electric guitars and drums. I am NOT going back to a Mass that has them. It’s very protestant (no offense to the prostestants) and is, I think, to entertain to a less-serious crowd. Whether it’s not allowed - I don’t see how it can be banned or anything, I just don’t like it.

 

[spellinggirl]

There are one or two acoustic guitars played at my church, and they make the liturgy very beautiful. I think you should be okay.

 

[Tracy07]

Hi we mainly have the organ but maybe every other week we have two acoustic guitars and two singers leading the hymns both are very beautiful.
We were at a neighbouring parish over easter and they had guitars etc led by a choir of girls, beautiful singers and music but because they sang the songs slightly different to our parish (tune wise) i got a bit lost that said it was a beautiful church and beautiful music.
x

 

[quiet52]

Hallelujah!
Praise God in his holy sanctuary;
give raise in the mighty dome of heaven.
Give praise for his mighty deeds,
praise him for his great majesty.
Give praise with blasts upon the horn,
praise him with harp and lyre.
Give praise with tambourines and dance,
praise him with flutes and strings.
Give praise with crashing cymbals,
praise him with sounding cymbals.
Let everything that has breath
give praise to the Lord!
Hallelujah!

                                  - Psalm 150

(just felt like posting this)

 

[benedictgal]

(just felt like posting this)

While that is all well and good, that doesn’t necessarily justify using all of this stuff for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. These weren’t even used in the context of the liturgy of Ancient Israel. The Lord set down specific requirements. All you have to do is read through Leviticus and even parts of Numbers and Deuteronomy. The only instrument, if memory serves, that the Lord mentions is the horn to call Ancient Israel to worship.

That being said, it is rather sad that the guitar has replaced the organ as the instrument of choice, even though the documents clearly state that the organ has pride of place in liturgy. It’s as though we have forgotten what the documents state and are merely going with something simply because it’s easier and less cumbersone. No wonder liturgical music has gone downhill over the course of the last 40 years.

I can understand using the guitar in some instances, for example, when the organ is out of commission; however, to use it all of the time? There are some pieces of Sacred Music that do not translate well from organ to guitar, and vice-versa. However, some publishing houses, like OCP, send forth music that only works for the guitar and completely ignore the organ. My parish, along with a majority of parishes in my diocese, is pretty much stuck on the guitar. While we also have a piano, there is still something missing. The organ, on the other hand, gives me a sense that we are in the divine presence of the majesty of God. You just don’t get it with the guitar, especially when you have a lot of Protestant Praise and Worship stuff. It’s just not there.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

While that is all well and good, that doesn’t necessarily justify using all of this stuff for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. These weren’t even used in the context of the liturgy of Ancient Israel. The Lord set down specific requirements. All you have to do is read through Leviticus and even parts of Numbers and Deuteronomy. The only instrument, if memory serves, that the Lord mentions is the horn to call Ancient Israel to worship.

That being said, it is rather sad that the guitar has replaced the organ as the instrument of choice, even though the documents clearly state that the organ has pride of place in liturgy. It’s as though we have forgotten what the documents state and are merely going with something simply because it’s easier and less cumbersone. No wonder liturgical music has gone downhill over the course of the last 40 years.

I agree with all of your sentiments - however, it is a bit of a red herring to say that the guitar has replaced the organ.

Certainly at my church, the instrument most often heard is the organ. The piano is second. On some rare occassions, the guitar is used. This seems to be the case in many other communities as well. Just as people sometimes talk about a new wave of priests coming out of the seminaries who are returning to “traditional liturgy”, so too are there a new wave of younger musicians taking jobs in parishes who are trained in the organ and “better” music. The days of the guitar mass are over; the 70’s and 80’s are long gone.

 

[benedictgal]

I agree with all of your sentiments - however, it is a bit of a red herring to say that the guitar has replaced the organ.

Certainly at my church, the instrument most often heard is the organ. The piano is second. On some rare occassions, the guitar is used. This seems to be the case in many other communities as well. Just as people sometimes talk about a new wave of priests coming out of the seminaries who are returning to “traditional liturgy”, so too are there a new wave of younger musicians taking jobs in parishes who are trained in the organ and “better” music. The days of the guitar mass are over; the 70’s and 80’s are long gone.

Of course, no one has told many of the parishes in my diocese. I have heard some pretty bad guitar music, to the point that some of it sounds like Tejano/Ranchera music. The sad part is that in my diocese, several parishes are stuck in a 1970s time warp and won’t invest in getting (or learning) better music.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Of course, no one has told many of the parishes in my diocese. I have heard some pretty bad guitar music, to the point that some of it sounds like Tejano/Ranchera music. The sad part is that in my diocese, several parishes are stuck in a 1970s time warp and won’t invest in getting (or learning) better music.

I hate to say it - and I say it at the risk of even being considered “racist” - but it really has a lot to do with where you are.

Unfortunately, even though there is a great tradition of organ and choral music in Mexico and spanish speaking countries, the mass as it is celebrated by most hispanics in the United States doesn’t seem to reflect it. They need to be introduced to Victoria, et al.

 

[pnewton]

I can understand using the guitar in some instances, for example, when the organ is out of commission; however, to use it all of the time? There are some pieces of Sacred Music that do not translate well from organ to guitar, and vice-versa.

I agree. There are many hymns I can not so with a guitar and many more just aren’t the same. For example, “Dona Nobis Pacem” is night and day different on organ and guitar, but both work well. We have had an organist on occasion, but for the last few years we have not had one trained keyboard player of any flavor out of 1200 families. Such is our lot.

 

[benedictgal]

I hate to say it - and I say it at the risk of even being considered “racist” - but it really has a lot to do with where you are.

Unfortunately, even though there is a great tradition of organ and choral music in Mexico and spanish speaking countries, the mass as it is celebrated by most hispanics in the United States doesn’t seem to reflect it. They need to be introduced to Victoria, et al.

Oddly enough, a priest friend and I were having dinner and we discussed the same thing. Although, his take is that Mexico does not have a strong choral tradition. What little the Church in Mexico has is what was brought over from Spain. In fact, the last vestiges of it was found in a little known composition by a Spanish priest that had settings for Vespers for the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Yes, there is some organ music; however, it is not on the grand scale that exists in Europe or even in parts of the United States.

One example that made me shudder was the Spanish version of Jesus Christ is Risen Today. I started to belt it out with the Lyrica Davidica melody when the older women and the priest (I was visiting a parish) launched into Michael Rowed His Boat Ashore. It killed an otherwise beautiful song. What was worse was to hear it on the radio broadcast of the Mass from the Cathedral. Jesus Christ is Risen Today was played on the organ, but, with the Michael Rowed His Boat Ashore tune. The organist knew better than that because when I used to serve at the Cathedral, I had that song scheduled in rotation for Easter with the correct tune.

I am still on the OCP mailling list. I received a sample CD for Flor Y Canto. Almost all of the hymns are sung with a guitar accompanyment. One of them sounds more like something you would hear on a Saturday night at a Tejano club. And that was a song for Palm Sunday! About the only decent song in the lot was Amen, a Spanglish song by Fr. Schiavone (which, from what I understand will be used for the New York Papal Mass). That one featured the organ and it actually sounded nice.

 

[HelenRose]

The guitar is allowable. And while the organ is given pride of place it is not a “sacred” instrument. It was used in the secular world before its use in the church

I play classical guitar and use the guitar for finding pitch. It would be wonderful if our vocalists all had perfect pitch but they don’t. The guitar chorded quietly in the back ground adds greatly to vocal music. I especially love the sound of chants with the guitar.

I like the passages in the Bible referring to ten stringed lutes. I try to emulate the concept of a lute.

I can see how a guitar is often abused. An organ played by someone who loves to fill the church with loud music can override voices and be just as abusive.

My first love is the voice however. For me instruments are the means in which to show forth the voice.

There are instrumentalists that disagree with me on this and I understand that also.

I want to add also. There is a sizable Hispanic presence in our Parish which to me has added much to my approach to music and how I use the guitar.

 

[Guitar]

That being said, it is rather sad that the guitar has replaced the organ as the instrument of choice, even though the documents clearly state that the organ has pride of place in liturgy. It’s as though we have forgotten what the documents state and are merely going with something simply because it’s easier and less cumbersone. No wonder liturgical music has gone downhill over the course of the last 40 years.

I can understand using the guitar in some instances, for example, when the organ is out of commission; however, to use it all of the time? There are some pieces of Sacred Music that do not translate well from organ to guitar, and vice-versa. However, some publishing houses, like OCP, send forth music that only works for the guitar and completely ignore the organ. My parish, along with a majority of parishes in my diocese, is pretty much stuck on the guitar. While we also have a piano, there is still something missing. The organ, on the other hand, gives me a sense that we are in the divine presence of the majesty of God. You just don’t get it with the guitar, especially when you have a lot of Protestant Praise and Worship stuff. It’s just not there.

A number of points:

I agree with PGA that the guitar has not replaced the organ - in my neck of the woods, anyway, organ music is more common than guitar music. The repertoire certainly needs some improving, but the instrument itself hasn’t fallen into disuse.

I am glad you said, “and vice versa”. Guitarist are not the only people guilty of failure to adapt music to their instrument. (I have no great love for City of God, as an example, but I have yet to hear an organist who doesn’t turn it into an oom-pah-pah merry-go-round waltz, which it is most emphatically NOT. Musicians should be like doctors, rule number one is “first, do no harm”. Play the piece, or don’t play it, but if you do play it, don’t make it any worse!)

It is absolutely true that not all sacred music adapts well to guitar. I am sometimes an organist but have a long-term left-hand injury that lets me play but not practice as much as I need to. I also play in situations where there is no organ or it is laughably inadequate. There are many traditional hymns I don’t play as I can’t come up with a tasteful way of arranging them. A surprising number can work very well, though. People argue with this, saying that it can’t be done, on the basis they’ve only ever heard it done badly. Well, on that basis it would be easy for me to “prove” fairly quickly that Nessun Dorma cannot be sung by a tenor. The nay-sayers tend to be those who have never heard lute, archlute, theorbo or period guitar playing continuo in an ensemble or period orchestra. (And those whose parish guitarists have not either! ) The other important thing is recognising what the guitar is good at and what it does not do well. It is not at all a good lead/support instrument in the way organ is. I lead singing by the combination of my accompaniment arrangement and my voice (and the extra instruments if I have them). The guitar is just a piece of the overall picture.

It’s often said that publishers promote guitar music but most “modern” stuff I see in print, post-St Louis Jesuits, Medical Mission Sisters etc, is not guitar music at all. It is piano music. Haas, Haugen, Cotter … some bits works better on guitar than others but idiomatically it is nearly all piano music. I’ve asked here before, what is “guitar music”? There is guitar music i.e. music idiomatic to the guitar, there is music played on guitar whether it suits it or no, and there is the guitar itself and all three things get mixed up pretty quickly.

It’s a common assumption that all guitarists play what you call Protestant P&W. I do not - I work out of the same hymnal the parish organists do, as does the other guitarist in my parish. When I work with other instruments, it is usually oboe, violin and cello (full quartet for bigger jobs), occasionally a double bass, and either organ or piano depending on what is in the chapel or church. Maybe I’m in the minority, but the presence of a guitar does not have to mean P&W on the menu.