Is gun-point really insufficient consent?

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sdegutis

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I’ve often heard the requirement of “sufficient consent” explained using gun-point as an example, that is, if you commit a grave sin with full knowledge of its sinfulness, at gun-point, it is not mortal. But I recall a saint (there were probably more than one) who was tortured and tempted intentionally by other people (pagans I think) to commit sin, and she refused, which is one of the reasons she is esteemed so highly. Plus Jesus said we should follow Him unto death, so isn’t it still mortal to knowingly commit a grave sin at gun-point?
 
sdegutis said:
I’ve often heard the requirement of “sufficient consent” explained using gun-point as an example, that is, if you commit a grave sin with full knowledge of its sinfulness, at gun-point, it is not mortal. But I recall a saint (there were probably more than one) who was tortured and tempted intentionally by other people (pagans I think) to commit sin, and she refused, which is one of the reasons she is esteemed so highly. Plus Jesus said we should follow Him unto death, so isn’t it still mortal to knowingly commit a grave sin at gun-point?
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No.

It is exemplary virtue to refuse to sin in spite of torture and detah, that’s why they made them Saints.

There is no way you can have full consent of the will when you’re being threatened with death, so it can not be a mortal sin.

God Bless
 
Bilop nailed it – there is no full consent with a gun at your head. However, it is a prime opportunity to show heroic virtue and embrace martyrdom.

But to run from martrydom is not a mortal sin.
 
sdegutis said:
I’ve often heard the requirement of “sufficient consent” explained using gun-point as an example, that is, if you commit a grave sin with full knowledge of its sinfulness, at gun-point, it is not mortal. But I recall a saint (there were probably more than one) who was tortured and tempted intentionally by other people (pagans I think) to commit sin, and she refused, which is one of the reasons she is esteemed so highly. Plus Jesus said we should follow Him unto death, so isn’t it still mortal to knowingly commit a grave sin at gun-point?
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bilop said:
No.

It is exemplary virtue to refuse to sin in spite of torture and death, that’s why they made them Saints.

There is no way you can have full consent of the will when you’re being threatened with death, so it can not be a mortal sin.

God Bless
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Both of these posts bring up very valid points. Lets’ start by taking a quick look at the relative paragraph in the CCC
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
There can be no doubt but that torture and “gun point” will have an effect on the, “consent (being) sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice”. That said, one should hope and seek to be strong enough to resist even unto death.
So - Pray for strength, resist as long as you possibly can and, perhaps, you will become one of those who, bilop describes as having “exemplary virtue”…

If not,

Be like Peter…If asked if you would deny Christ (commit some mortal sin) - even at gun point or under torture - DENY that you would, and believe it - commit to it in your heart. Later, if you fail, be like Peter here too. Turn back to God quickly in remorse, repentance and humility for having failed. Then our gracious God will forgive.

But be careful of “feigned ignorance”, for as the Catechism points out…“Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin”…likewise one can easily fool themselves into thinking they were “forced” in some way to commit the sin (another form of “feigned ignorance”).

I pray none of us are ever put to this test…

Peace
James
 
So, are you saying that if a man points a gun to a woman’s head and tells her he’ll kill her if she doesn’t perform certain sexual acts and she does it’s a sin?
 
maltmom said:
So, are you saying that if a man points a gun to a woman’s head and tells her he’ll kill her if she doesn’t perform certain sexual acts and she does it’s a sin?
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Are you asking me or the OP?

Peace
James
 
maltmom said:
The OP. I thought about it later but couldn’t edit it. Sorry.
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No problem - as I was considering your question, this response came to mind…

Did Peter sin when he denied Christ three times out of fear for his life?

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
No problem - as I was considering your question, this response came to mind…

Did Peter sin when he denied Christ three times out of fear for his life?

Peace
James
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Interesting question, but a rape victim is not denying Christ as she does what she has to do to not be killed.

I’m going to leave this conversation now b/c I can see where it will derail the thread.
 
maltmom said:
Interesting question, but a rape victim is not denying Christ as she does what she has to do to not be killed.
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Peter also did what he had to in order not to be killed…
As to whether we deny Christ when we knowingly do something contrary to the Will of God…
Mt 16:
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life?
Understand - I make no judgement here.
Perhaps the best one to make that call, other than God Himself, would be St. Maria Goretti
I’m going to leave this conversation now b/c I can see where it will derail the thread.
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Farewell…But I don’t really see how this derails the thread.

Peace
James
 
Maltmom – the woman would still be performing an intrinsic evil. That’s not the same thing as accusing her of mortal sin.
We can still legitimately discuss the objective nature of an act, and then as a separate question assess how much culpability she has due to the gun.
 
JRKH said:
Be like Peter…If asked if you would deny Christ (commit some mortal sin) - even at gun point or under torture - DENY that you would, and believe it - commit to it in your heart. Later, if you fail, be like Peter here too. Turn back to God quickly in remorse, repentance and humility for having failed. Then our gracious God will forgive.
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Well said. I love reading about St Peter in the gospels because so much of what he does and says shows great love for our Lord mixed with human weakeness and impulsiveness. He exemplifies the struggle we all have with faith and our failures; yet this is the man Jesus chose to be the first among the apostles.

What great love Christ had for Peter, to forgive him this insult during His passion.

And what great love Peter had for Christ, to run into the tomb in search of Him.
 
maltmom said:
So, are you saying that if a man points a gun to a woman’s head and tells her he’ll kill her if she doesn’t perform certain sexual acts and she does it’s a sin?
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Under such coercion that would NOT be a mortal sin.
 
thistle said:
I’m British but live in the Philippines
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Looking at what you put for “Religion”, you are possibly the first non-atheist British person I have ever heard of in my life. I basically considered the word British synonymous with the word atheism.
 
In regards people like St Peter - well, remember that there is such a thing as venial sin too. So it isn’t mortal sin or nothing.

What (if any) degree of sinfulness attaches subjectively would depend on all sorts of things. One being the degree of coercion.You might say that a threat of some unspecified type of future persecution or death is a different thing (a lesser threat) to having a gun actually pointed at your head ready to shoot should you resist.

And that a mere statement that Peter was one of Jesus’ followers by a maid isn’t quite the same as a specific order, with loaded gun pointed at you, to do something sinful or you would be killed then and there (not a direct order to sin as such).
 
LilyM said:
In regards people like St Peter - well, remember that there is such a thing as venial sin too. So it isn’t mortal sin or nothing.

What (if any) degree of sinfulness attaches subjectively would depend on all sorts of things. One being the degree of coercion.You might say that a threat of some unspecified type of future persecution or death is a different thing (a lesser threat) to having a gun actually pointed at your head ready to shoot should you resist.

And that a mere statement that Peter was one of Jesus’ followers by a maid isn’t quite the same as a specific order, with loaded gun pointed at you, to do something sinful or you would be killed then and there (not a direct order to sin as such).
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Good points.

Taking the Peter analogy, his action (denying Jesus) is grave. We know this because if we were to do the same, it would be considered grave, so it must have been grave for Peter as well.

Yet even after having seen Jesus in person, and beholding His glory on the mountain, Peter still denied Jesus. This should add to the gravity of what Peter did.

Also, being called a follower of Jesus by a girl is hardly being held at gunpoint. Does this diminish or increase the gravity? I would guess that because he did such a grave thing under such light circumstances, it added to the gravity.

I figure this for the same reason it would add to the gravity if I were prompted to kill someone because they called me fat, whereas if they had physically assaulted me and I retaliated by killing them it would be slightly less grave.

Yet we know that Peter was forgiven later on, but we don’t know for a fact how grave Jesus considered his sin.

This would suppose that it diminishes the gravity of the situation, but not diminish the consent, when we are coerced at gun-point to commit some sin.
 
sdegutis said:
Looking at what you put for “Religion”, you are possibly the first non-atheist British person I have ever heard of in my life. I basically considered the word British synonymous with the word atheism.
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Is that supposed to be a joke??? If not, then you are a seriously ignorant person.
 
thistle said:
Is that supposed to be a joke??? If not, then you are a seriously ignorant person.
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Only half joking. I have seriously never met, seen, or heard of a British person who isn’t also an atheist until now. You shocked me a bit. I mean I knew statistically there must be some but still…
 
sdegutis said:
Only half joking. I have seriously never met, seen, or heard of a British person who isn’t also an atheist until now. You shocked me a bit. I mean I knew statistically there must be some but still…
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UK population is about 62 million.
In the last UK census 71.6% of all respondents indicated that they were Christians and of that 62% are Anglican, 13.5% Roman Catholic, 6% Presbyterian, 3.4% Methodist with small numbers of other Protestant denominations and the Orthodox church.

For you to state “statistically there must be some” is a great offence and insult to me as a Brit. You really are shockingly ignorant!!
 
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