Is harboring repressed perversions within the unconscious sinful?

[Lou2U]

Not going to read the whole post…wheew that is long

Key: That which is unconscious - is UNCONSCIOUS. It is not something willed.

Sin is in the will. Not in the unconscious.

And for mortal sin one needs besides grave matter - full knowledge and deliberate consent.

Catechism:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#1859

Thanks for this - I was trying to think of a way to phrase it, but you’ve done it much better than I could.

Lou

 

[Robert_Sock]

Evil? Do you believe that sin can arise from the unconscious and that we need to be on guard for it?

Sinful desires (temptations based on the Seven Deadly Sins) need to be uprooted according to the Imitation of Christ, not repressed.

 

[Lou2U]

I think you guys are misunderstanding me, but I’m not sure how. I’m now a Catholic first and utmost. I love love, and love was simply not to be found in psychology. But I do borrow from psychology if it helps explain religious phenomena. Not to sound proud or anything, but I think that our becoming aware of our defense mechanisms helps us to better understand ourselves and even free ourselves from unconscious sin.

I can’t follow your argument. The answer to your thread is “no”, but you refuse to accept this as possible.

Evil? Do you believe that sin can arise from the unconscious and that we need to be on guard for it?

Sinful desires (temptations based on the seven deadly sins) need to be uprooted according to the Imitation of Christ, not repressed.

Temptations aren’t sinful, acting on them is.

Lou

 

[Robert_Sock]

Not going to read the whole post…wheew that is long

Key: That which is unconscious - is UNCONSCIOUS. It is not something willed.

Sin is in the will. Not in the unconscious.

And for mortal sin one needs besides grave matter - full knowledge and deliberate consent.

Catechism:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#1859

Thanks for coming back to this. I contend that as a result the fall, original sin, not necessarily mortal sin, resides in the unconscious. Where do the Seven Deadly Sins reside?

 

[Bookcat]

Thanks for coming back to this. I contend that as a result the fall, original sin, not necessarily mortal sin, resides in the unconscious.

Original sin is washed away…but some consequences remain:

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence “is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.” Indeed, “an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1264

But unconscious things…are well unconscious…so instead of trying look for some such possible unconscious things (which can be dangerous…seek out a spiritual director and lay aside ones shovel) -one works with grace to overcome conscious matters and temptations and to increase in the virtues.

 

[Bookcat]

Where do the Seven Deadly Sins reside?

Well hopefully nowhere!

But again such involves the will and then from repeated sinful actions in that particular area one can establish a more stable disposition (habitus) towards that sin (a vice) (just as repeated acts of virtue establish a stable disposition towards that virtue - a habitus -(not to be confused with the term habit)).

The term “deadly” --often confuses persons.

It an lead some to think deadly sins = only grave matter for grave (mortal) sin.

Many of them are also venial sins (in matter too)…

A better term is “capital sins” (as the CCC uses). They are called Capital cause they are the “head” capitus of many other sins that they engender…

“They are called “capital” because they engender other sins” (1866)

 

[pianistclare]

OP, you keep posting the same thing over and over…advancing non-Catholic teaching, frankly disturbing content, and then back tracking and saying you’re against it all.
I’m baffled as to what you think you’re going to achieve here or what type of dialog you hope to promote…you dismiss all the Catholic answers, yet profess to love the Church.
I’m willing to admit you love being a Catholic.
But get a Catechism, read it, or at the minimum listen to the knowledgeable Catholics and Catholic Deacons who respond to you.
When people say they are DISTURBED by a thread…it’s time to step back and re-think.
Peace.

 

[Lou2U]

OP, you keep posting the same thing over and over…advancing non-Catholic teaching, frankly disturbing content, and then back tracking and saying you’re against it all.
I’m baffled as to what you think you’re going to achieve here or what type of dialog you hope to promote…you dismiss all the Catholic answers, yet profess to love the Church.
I’m willing to admit you love being a Catholic.
But get a Catechism, read it, or at the minimum listen to the knowledgeable Catholics and Catholic Deacons who respond to you.
When people say they are DISTURBED by a thread…it’s time to step back and re-think.
Peace.

I completely agree.

Lou

 

[Robert_Sock]

Well hopefully nowhere!

But again such involves the will and then from repeated sinful actions in that particular area one can establish a more stable disposition (habitus) towards that sin (a vice) (just as repeated acts of virtue establish a stable disposition towards that virtue - a habitus -(not to be confused with the term habit)).

The term “deadly” --often confuses persons.

It an lead some to think deadly sins = only grave matter for grave (mortal) sin.

Many of them are also venial sins (in matter too)…

A better term is “capital sins” (as the CCC uses). They are called Capital cause they are the “head” capitus of many other sins that they engender…

“They are called “capital” because they engender other sins” (1866)

Where do the Capital Sins come from? True, they surface to tempt us, but from where did they originate? Where do they reside when they are not active in our consciousness? Where does the stain of sin reside? The answer has got to be in the unconscious. (The evil inclination must be crushed in addition to the old self. This is the road to inner perfection.)

 

[Robert_Sock]

Thanks for the advice on An Introduction to the Devout Life, but I’m quite content in following the Imitation. Are you aware of the deep influence of this book on lay people? It’s the second most read book by Christians! Following it leads to an ever increase of inner freedom. If people only recognized that they are slaves in the state of exile, knowing nothing of true freedom.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Thanks for the kind advice!

 

[Bookcat]

Where do the Capital Sins come from? True, they surface to tempt us, but from where did they originate? Where do they reside when they are not active in our consciousness? Where does the stain of sin reside? The answer has got to be in the unconscious. (The evil inclination must be crushed in addition to the old self. This is the road to inner perfection.)

Where do they come from? - our choice. How are we tempted? The world (sinful society etc), our fallen nature (concupuscence), and the Devil.

If one engages in say the sin of lust - then one sins (be it interior or exterior) -such is an act of the will. A choice. From that capital sin of lust -other sins can be engendered…

Yes as Paul put is by the Holy Spirit we are to put to death such (reject lust -which does NOT mean go looking for unconscious aspects or digging into such!) and put on Christ - to walk by the Spirit - and to live in chastity and love etc.

---

I recommend you seek out a good Priest to be your Spiritual director - to clear up misconceptions and to guide you. Do not simply go on a book…especially a book that can be misunderstood due to when it was written and to whom. Even a classic work.

 

[esieffe]

Yes, we are born with and sometimes “gather” animal or sinful impulses. What separates us from animals is the fact that we can discriminate, reason, and if you want to use the word, repress these impulses. I do. If I see a person I find attractive in public, it is only natural at times to think bout it. If I begin to think of this person as a sex object, I have to slam the door on that thought and move on.

There are most certainly valid theories in psychology, and valuable studies. I just happen to believe that this discipline is still behind the times. It can be at odds with Catholicism but it doesn’t have to be. There are Catholic mental health professionals who are able to see and work with both Christianity and mental health.

 

[esieffe]

I think everyone should own a copy of Spiritual Warfare by Paul Thigpen, do you know it?
This book is an instruction manual on ways to protect ourselves from the enemy.

 

[St_Francis]

Thanks for coming back to this. I contend that as a result the fall, original sin, not necessarily mortal sin, resides in the unconscious. Where do the Seven Deadly Sins reside?

Original sin is washed away in baptism; it does not reside in the unconscious.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Original sin is washed away in baptism; it does not reside in the unconscious.

Original sin reflects the fall, and it affects us all to this very day.

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”.Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action and morals.
–CCC

 

[Bookcat]

Original sin reflects the fall, and it affects us all to this very day.

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”.Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action and morals.
–CCC

Original sin is washed away…but some consequences remain:

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence “is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.” Indeed, “an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1264

 

[Robert_Sock]

Original sin is washed away…but some consequences remain:

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence “is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.” Indeed, “an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1264

Satan does not work using magic, but uses our human nature which includes the cognitive unconscious where the triggers for the seven capital sins are stored and activated. It’s these triggers that we are obligated to uproot from within oneself.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Satan does not work using magic, but uses our human nature which includes the cognitive unconscious where the triggers for the seven capital sins are stored and activated. It’s these triggers that we are obligated to uproot from within oneself.

When you refer to the unconscious are you describing something that has not come to light, a sin not yet acted on or not even a temptation yet or are you thinking of sinful incidents or habits that an person no longer engages in even if the temptation is there?

 

[Robert_Sock]

When you refer to the unconscious are you describing something that has not come to light, a sin not yet acted on or not even a temptation yet or are you thinking of sinful incidents or habits that an person no longer engages in even if the temptation is there?

I’m not sure I fully understand your distinction, but most psychologists would see the unconscious as being filled with repressed memories (usually emotional), beliefs and plenty of conflicts. (The purpose of psychoanalysis is to bring these things into awareness where they can get worked out rather easily. I’m single, 61, and I believe I could attend an orgy without getting the least bit aroused because I crushed this evil spirit of sexual lust and thus uprooted the temptation itself. This is what I prayed for and God granted it.)