Is having pain when giving birh to a child a consequence of original sin?

[Hokomai]

Pain in childbirth is a consequence of our evolution. It is like the common experience of backpain. We retain the characteristics we inherit unless there are mutations which replace those characteristics because those with the mutation have more surviving offspring. We have backpain because we have the spines of our quadruped ancestors yet stand upright and use our arms to pick up heavy things. This is a matter of science, not religion.

mpg.de/595251/pressRelease20090421

 

[coachkfan1]

It appears that Adam was deceived since he ate the apple as well.

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Genesis 3:6

I am only providing the Scripture that Paul wrote. However, we do not know for sure that Adam was deceived because it is not clear that he knows where the fruit came from. And if he was deceived, which he probably was, he was deceived by the WOMAN not the serpent.

 

[pgnat1]

Pain in childbirth is a consequence of our evolution. It is like the common experience of backpain. We retain the characteristics we inherit unless there are mutations which replace those characteristics because those with the mutation have more surviving offspring. We have backpain because we have the spines of our quadruped ancestors yet stand upright and use our arms to pick up heavy things. This is a matter of science, not religion.

mpg.de/595251/pressRelease20090421

But what if God guided evolution?

 

[notself]

I am only providing the Scripture that Paul wrote. However, we do not know for sure that Adam was deceived because it is not clear that he knows where the fruit came from. And if he was deceived, which he probably was, he was deceived by the WOMAN not the serpent.

Can one deceive by stating what one sincerely believes? Isn’t intention needed to deceive?

 

[Hokomai]

But what if God guided evolution?

Then he did a very poor job. Hence the backpain.

 

[Jacob50]

Hmmm maybe a better question would be why Genesis has the wording:
“I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing” if you cannot increase what you didn’t have in the first place. If pain comes with original sin then why is such wording used? If pain didn’t exist pre-original sin, then why is the verse above implying otherwise? Or is there something I’m missing here?

I’m a Catholic and believe everything the Church teaches. So if the Church teaches that the consequence of original sin are things like death and pain during labor then I will believe it. But I do wish to have an answer to this question.

 

[pgnat1]

Then he did a very poor job. Hence the backpain.

Ehh, I prefer not to judge my Creator but you are entitled to your opinion.

Isaiah 64:8

 

[Hokomai]

Ehh, I prefer not to judge my Creator but you are entitled to your opinion.

Isaiah 64:8

I am sure that if there is a God he will eventually explain to us that no, he did not guide evolution. I imagine He will and be rather annoyed with those believers who, seeing the many imperfections of creatures, 99% of which have become extinct because they did not function in their environment, thought he made them.

 

[M-Dent]

Hmmm maybe a better question would be why Genesis has the wording:

I have heard it explained that - “I will multiply” is a Hebraism (Hebrew idiom) meaning: “I will make a lot of.” Thus not an indication that pain (labor pain) existed prior to the Fall.

Regardless, the “possibility” of pain and death did exist. The Church teaches that our first parents were given a preternatural gift from God. The nature of the human person does not include integrity and bodily immortality. So there would be no fossil records indicating a different natural existence since it wasn’t built into nature.

 

[friendster324]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=70867

Mary’s labor being free from suffering is not an article of faith required of Catholics. A pious belief that we are free to believe but not a defined doctrine.

 

[Will_B]

Since animals do not cry out when in pain, how do you know that animals don’t feel pain during labor.?

Having been raised on a farm, I know animals cry out when in pain.
Cows giving a breach birth cry "Moo Moo Moo " with the most awful sound.
Dogs and Cats have their cry of pain.

Having observed the birth of Dogs, Cats and Cows; unless there is a problem with the delivery it is pain free… These animals were born without original sin.

 

[Holly3278]

Since animals do not cry out when in pain, how do you know that animals don’t feel pain during labor.?

Believe me, animals do sometimes cry out when in pain. If you step on a cat’s tail, I guarantee it is going to scream.

That said, as for the subject in question, I am not sure.

 

[steve53]

I knew a lady who said she had no pain when having her children. Discomfort, but no pain.

So what does that mean?

 

[M-Dent]

Hmmm maybe a better question would be why Genesis has the wording:

“I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing” if you cannot increase what you didn’t have in the first place. If pain comes with original sin then why is such wording used? If pain didn’t exist pre-original sin, then why is the verse above implying otherwise? Or is there something I’m missing here? .

One more thought regarding the Pentateuch. If you look to the Hebrew and Transliteration you may see why alternative translations are notable.

→ biblelexicon.org/genesis/3-16.htm

Different editions of the NAB

NAB (USCCB site)

16 To the woman he said: I will intensify your toil in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children

usccb.org/bible/gn/3:16

NAB (on Vatican site)

16 To the woman he said: “I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall be your master.”

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P5.HTM

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible

To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee

drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=3&l=16#x

 

[superamazingman]

I knew a lady who said she had no pain when having her children. Discomfort, but no pain.

So what does that mean?

It means she is unusual in that manner. It doesn’t really mean anything more. Her body is not like most.

 

[Jacob50]

I have heard it explained that - “I will multiply” is a Hebraism (Hebrew idiom) meaning: “I will make a lot of.” Thus not an indication that pain (labor pain) existed prior to the Fall.

Regardless, the “possibility” of pain and death did exist. The Church teaches that our first parents were given a preternatural gift from God. The nature of the human person does not include integrity and bodily immortality. So there would be no fossil records indicating a different natural existence since it wasn’t built into nature.

Ok thanks for the explanation

 

[Jacob50]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=70867

Mary’s labor being free from suffering is not an article of faith required of Catholics. A pious belief that we are free to believe but not a defined doctrine.

Thanks for your response. But are you sure? I mean I know the apologist wrote it is not but what do I make of these quotes:

---

For in a way wonderful beyond expression or conception, he is born of his mother without any diminution of her maternal virginity. As he afterwards went forth from the sepulcher while it was closed and sealed, and entered the room where his disciples were assembled, although “the doors were closed” (Jn 20:19), or, not to depart from natural events which we witness every day, as the rays of the sun penetrate the substance of glass without breaking or injuring it in the least: so, but in a more incomprehensible manner, did Jesus Christ come forth from his mother’s womb without injury to her maternal virginity. …To Eve it was said, “In pain you shall bring forth children” (Gen 3:16). Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate, she brought forth Jesus the Son of God, without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain.
The Catechism of the Council of Trent

This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest…also at the birth of our Lord, who did not diminish His Mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it.
Lumen Gentium, 57: the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, Vatican ll Council

Or are these not infallible teachings?

Just asking

 

[Hokomai]

Thanks for your response. But are you sure? I mean I know the apologist wrote it is not but what do I make of these quotes:

---

For in a way wonderful beyond expression or conception, he is born of his mother without any diminution of her maternal virginity. As he afterwards went forth from the sepulcher while it was closed and sealed, and entered the room where his disciples were assembled, although “the doors were closed” (Jn 20:19), or, not to depart from natural events which we witness every day, as the rays of the sun penetrate the substance of glass without breaking or injuring it in the least: so, but in a more incomprehensible manner, did Jesus Christ come forth from his mother’s womb without injury to her maternal virginity. …To Eve it was said, “In pain you shall bring forth children” (Gen 3:16). Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate, she brought forth Jesus the Son of God, without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain.
The Catechism of the Council of Trent

This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest…also at the birth of our Lord, who did not diminish His Mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it.
Lumen Gentium, 57: the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, Vatican ll Council

Or are these not infallible teachings?

Just asking

I am not sure that they are ‘infallible’ but they are part of the teaching of the Church. And very hard to accept I imagine for the majority of Catholics. Jesus, by this teaching must have miraculously trans-located from inside to outside, bypassing the usual means of egress. Of course this does resolve the pain issue.

 

[steve53]

It means she is unusual in that manner. It doesn’t really mean anything more. Her body is not like most.

Maybe she is one of God’s Chosen People.

 

[HisIsTheCrown]

Believe me, animals do sometimes cry out when in pain. If you step on a cat’s tail, I guarantee it is going to scream.

That said, as for the subject in question, I am not sure.