Is he Catholic?

[Rahn]

Hi,

I have a bit of a problem. I have a friend who was born into the Catholic faith (we both grew up in the same Catholic parish) and has been practising off and on. He’s married a Catholic and has three children. However, he:

• doesn’t believe in transubstantiation
• does not believe in venerating Mary nor praying to saints
• attends Sunday Mass with his family but does not receive Holy Communion
• does not believe that confession is necessary for the forgiveness of sins
• (his words) “tolerates” statues in his house for peace with his wife
• believes in the rapture, tribulation, etc…

I’ve already asked the obvious question: why are you Catholic? The reply is around “I want peace in the family”, “I like the sacramental nature”, etc…

I have stopped short of saying to him that he’s not Catholic, because I’m not sure.

What do you think? Is he really Catholic?

 

[YoungTradCath]

If he was baptized, then yes, he’s Catholic, like it or not. Can’t change that. Anyways, I’m now sure how he likes the sacramental nature of the Church if he won’t even partake in the sacraments. That’s just… contradictory.

 

[1ke]

He is Catholic by virtue of his baptism.

 

[JRKH]

Hi,

I have a bit of a problem. I have a friend who was born into the Catholic faith (we both grew up in the same Catholic parish) and has been practising off and on. He’s married a Catholic and has three children. However, he:

• doesn’t believe in transubstantiation
• does not believe in venerating Mary nor praying to saints
• attends Sunday Mass with his family but does not receive Holy Communion
• does not believe that confession is necessary for the forgiveness of sins
• (his words) “tolerates” statues in his house for peace with his wife
• believes in the rapture, tribulation, etc…

I’ve already asked the obvious question: why are you Catholic? The reply is around “I want peace in the family”, “I like the sacramental nature”, etc…

I have stopped short of saying to him that he’s not Catholic, because I’m not sure.

What do you think? Is he really Catholic?

As others have said, he is Catholic by virtue of his baptism, however, like our protestant brothers and sisters it appears he is in “imperfect” communion with the Church.

To address the specifics you list above:
=doesn’t believe in transubstantiation
=attends Sunday Mass with his family but does not receive Holy Communion

I must commend his consistency here. It appears that for the sake of his wife and children he is attending mass, but cannot in good conscience partake of a communion he does not agree with. I give him good marks for this.
The best you can do here is to try to gently discuss these matters with him and, over time, perhaps he will come around.

=does not believe in venerating Mary nor praying to saints
=(his words) “tolerates” statues in his house for peace with his wife

The thing to remember about praying to saints (or to Mary) is that the Church does not mandate this. It is strictly a personal devotion (except for the general references in the mass). So if your friend does not feel comfortable with such intercessory prayer, I would not press the matter.
Same with the matter of “venerating Mary”. So long as he doesn’t “bad mouth” church teaching on the matter, I’d leave this one alone. If he does bad mouth, or if he has beliefs based on wrong information, by all means try to correct his misunderstandings. But beyond that I would suggest that ones level of devotion to Mary is more of a private nature.

=does not believe that confession is necessary for the forgiveness of sins
Well we have problems with a lot of Catholics on this one. Confession has fallen out of regular use for a great many Catholics. There are certain arguments you can use for this such as Jesus’ statement to the Apostles "Who’s sins you forgive they are forgiven. Who’s sins you retain they are retained. - How can the priest retain or forgive if you don’t tell him?

=believes in the rapture, tribulation, etc…
Well there are others here better qualified to address these.
My one suggestion would be, since he has obviously read or listened to the case for these beliefs, ask him if he has read or listened to the case against these beliefs.

Overall, it sounds as though your friend is basically a “non-catholic” Christian in his heart who is remaining within the Church structure for the sake of his wife and more importantly his children. I commend him for this. He is thinking of them more than himself.
Hopefully with time, he will see the errors of his current thinking and come home to full communion with the Church.

Peace
James

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hi,

I have a bit of a problem. I have a friend who was born into the Catholic faith (we both grew up in the same Catholic parish) and has been practising off and on. He’s married a Catholic and has three children. However, he:

• doesn’t believe in transubstantiation

Do you mean he doesn’t believe in transubstantiation or the Real Presence? Not believing in transubstantiation is fine because its just a philosophical way of trying to explain how bread and wine becomes the body and blood of Christ. What is required belief is that we know what was once bread and wine are bread and wine no more, but the body and blood of Christ. You can accept that as the miracle that it is without trying to understand how. The important thing is one accepts the reality that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ.

• attends Sunday Mass with his family but does not receive Holy Communion

It is not required to do so except for once a year during the Easter season.

 

[Simpleton]

Do you mean he doesn’t believe in transubstantiation or the Real Presence? Not believing in transubstantiation is fine because its just a philosophical way of trying to explain how bread and wine becomes the body and blood of Christ. What is required belief is that we know what was once bread and wine are bread and wine no more, but the body and blood of Christ. You can accept that as the miracle that it is without trying to understand how. The important thing is one accepts the reality that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ.

To add to this:

@Rahn

If he doesn’t believe in the Real Presence we should at least be thankful that he respects the Church’s teaching and does not receive communion. I think this is a sign of hope but also an indication of the type of interior battle your friend is going through. Right now he needs prayer not ridicule and I think the next time you go to Mass you should, during the consecration, ask Jesus to help your friend and to tell Jesus that you offer your communion for your friend’s complete conversion.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Yes, he is Catholic. Once a Catholic, always a Catholic. Under Canon Law, it is not even possible to formally defect from the Church anymore, so he is Catholic since his Baptism and will always remain so.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

However,

Canon Law

Can. 750 . A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firmly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

 

[Lucy_1]

In the Old Testament Jews were given the sign of circumcision as an outward sign that they were God’s people. Though the Old Testament has many stories about His people being stubborn, rebellious and unfaithful. Hi people in name, but not in obedience.

As Catholics we are given the indelible mark of baptism which is an outward symbol, and also regenerates us. But just like in Israel, some of God’s people are not faithful to Him. There are wheat and tares, and God will declare who is who at the last judgement.
So you can be Catholic, by means of your baptism, without being faithful to God.

Lord, we pray for this man, that he would understand and practice his faith and his love for you would increase. Mary, our mother, pray for us. Guide this man to your Son. Show this man your love for him and draw him back to God.

 

[At_Trent]

Unless he has renouced Catholicism and has formally left the Church, he is simply a non-practicing Catholic.

jmo

 

[1ke]

Unless he has renouced Catholicism and has formally left the Church, he is simply a non-practicing Catholic.

jmo

Even in the case where someone “formally renounces” the Catholic Faith, they remain Catholic in fact and in law.

The concept of “formal defection” was one of Canon Law only, and specifically dealt with the requirements for valid marriage. The Pope has removed this clause from Canon Law as it pertains to marriage. “Formal defection” is still something that can be done, but it has no weight in the law.

At no time did it every make one “not Catholic.”

 

[Rahn]

If he was baptized, then yes, he’s Catholic, like it or not. Can’t change that. Anyways, I’m now sure how he likes the sacramental nature of the Church if he won’t even partake in the sacraments. That’s just… contradictory.

I think I put that wrong, what he has said is he likes the ceremony, the incense, etc… it makes him “feel like he’s been to church”.

 

[Rahn]

As others have said, he is Catholic by virtue of his baptism, however, like our protestant brothers and sisters it appears he is in “imperfect” communion with the Church.

To address the specifics you list above:
=doesn’t believe in transubstantiation
=attends Sunday Mass with his family but does not receive Holy Communion

I must commend his consistency here. It appears that for the sake of his wife and children he is attending mass, but cannot in good conscience partake of a communion he does not agree with. I give him good marks for this.
The best you can do here is to try to gently discuss these matters with him and, over time, perhaps he will come around.

=does not believe in venerating Mary nor praying to saints
=(his words) “tolerates” statues in his house for peace with his wife

The thing to remember about praying to saints (or to Mary) is that the Church does not mandate this. It is strictly a personal devotion (except for the general references in the mass). So if your friend does not feel comfortable with such intercessory prayer, I would not press the matter.
Same with the matter of “venerating Mary”. So long as he doesn’t “bad mouth” church teaching on the matter, I’d leave this one alone. If he does bad mouth, or if he has beliefs based on wrong information, by all means try to correct his misunderstandings. But beyond that I would suggest that ones level of devotion to Mary is more of a private nature.

=does not believe that confession is necessary for the forgiveness of sins
Well we have problems with a lot of Catholics on this one. Confession has fallen out of regular use for a great many Catholics. There are certain arguments you can use for this such as Jesus’ statement to the Apostles "Who’s sins you forgive they are forgiven. Who’s sins you retain they are retained. - How can the priest retain or forgive if you don’t tell him?

=believes in the rapture, tribulation, etc…
Well there are others here better qualified to address these.
My one suggestion would be, since he has obviously read or listened to the case for these beliefs, ask him if he has read or listened to the case against these beliefs.

Overall, it sounds as though your friend is basically a “non-catholic” Christian in his heart who is remaining within the Church structure for the sake of his wife and more importantly his children. I commend him for this. He is thinking of them more than himself.
Hopefully with time, he will see the errors of his current thinking and come home to full communion with the Church.

Peace
James

Thanks James, great analysis and advise. I have to admit my view of his situation was not that clear and much less charitable

 

[Rahn]

Do you mean he doesn’t believe in transubstantiation or the Real Presence? Not believing in transubstantiation is fine because its just a philosophical way of trying to explain how bread and wine becomes the body and blood of Christ. What is required belief is that we know what was once bread and wine are bread and wine no more, but the body and blood of Christ. You can accept that as the miracle that it is without trying to understand how. The important thing is one accepts the reality that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ.

I meant Real Presence. He does not believe that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ.

 

[Rahn]

Lord, we pray for this man, that he would understand and practice his faith and his love for you would increase. Mary, our mother, pray for us. Guide this man to your Son. Show this man your love for him and draw him back to God.

Thanks Sheryl! Really, thanks to everyone who has responded. I was on the verge of making a big mistake!

 

[JRKH]

Rahn,
Glad we could be of help. It’s good to talk things over with friends.

Peace
James

 

[ConstantineTG]

As for my rant of the day, the most interesting fact here is that he will probably be allowed to teach catechism in this parish he attends rather than a Ukrainian Catholic who’s more serious about the faith, but is not a registered parishioner.

 

[At_Trent]

Even in the case where someone “formally renounces” the Catholic Faith, they remain Catholic in fact and in law.

The concept of “formal defection” was one of Canon Law only, and specifically dealt with the requirements for valid marriage. The Pope has removed this clause from Canon Law as it pertains to marriage. “Formal defection” is still something that can be done, but it has no weight in the law.

At no time did it every make one “not Catholic.”

Fair enough, I was just guessing.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Hi,

I have a bit of a problem. I have a friend who was born into the Catholic faith (we both grew up in the same Catholic parish) and has been practising off and on. He’s married a Catholic and has three children. However, he:

• doesn’t believe in transubstantiation
• does not believe in venerating Mary nor praying to saints
• attends Sunday Mass with his family but does not receive Holy Communion
• does not believe that confession is necessary for the forgiveness of sins
• (his words) “tolerates” statues in his house for peace with his wife
• believes in the rapture, tribulation, etc…

I’ve already asked the obvious question: why are you Catholic? The reply is around “I want peace in the family”, “I like the sacramental nature”, etc…

I have stopped short of saying to him that he’s not Catholic, because I’m not sure.

What do you think? Is he really Catholic?

His beliefs seem similar to a lot of modern Catholics, especially in Australia. I was talking to 2 work colleagues awhile ago and they both told me they were Catholics. Both did not know about transubstantiation and were quite amazed when I told them about the real presence of Christ. One of them no longer goes to mass, or confession etc and was proud to say she regularly says her prayers with her children at night like a good Catholic. However, her prayers seemed to be directed to the “angels” rather than God, she also doesn’t believe in hell and certainly doesn’t want to scare her kids by telling them about hell either.

They are both good people, but they seem to be like a lot of Catholics I have come across in Australia who seem to pick and choose the parts of the Catholic faith they like and will only follow the parts they are comfortable with.

 

[JRKH]

As for my rant of the day, the most interesting fact here is that he will probably be allowed to teach catechism in this parish he attends rather than a Ukrainian Catholic who’s more serious about the faith, but is not a registered parishioner.

Well this is interesting…
On the one hand my first reaction is that you might want to talk to his pastor about your concerns with his beliefs.
On the other hand, teaching catechism might actually help him to learn things about the faith and might help him as much as those he will be teaching…

Overall though it sounds like he needs to be taking the course, not teaching it.

Peace
James