Is Heaven Populated Chiefly by the Souls of Embryos?

[JimG]

I don’t concern myself with ensoulment at all, since it is not something that can ever be observed. I am concerned only with when a new human being begins. Normally a new human individual begins with the union of sperm and egg to form a zygote, which begins independent development as a new individual of the human species. If, in contradiction to moral law, a new human is formed technologically by the union or an ovum and an adult cell nucleus, that is the beginning of a new human being. Every human being has a beginning.

I have never heard any priest say that babies formed by IVF are soulless, any more than babies created by any other immoral act such as fornication or rape would be soulless. Since the soul cannot be observed, it would in any case be a rather inane statement.

 

[Convert_in_99]

I don’t concern myself with ensoulment at all, since it is not something that can ever be observed. I am concerned only with when a new human being begins. Normally a new human individual begins with the union of sperm and egg to form a zygote, which begins independent development as a new individual of the human species. If, in contradiction to moral law, a new human is formed technologically by the union or an ovum and an adult cell nucleus, that is the beginning of a new human being. Every human being has a beginning.

I have never heard any priest say that babies formed by IVF are soulless, any more than babies created by any other immoral act such as fornication or rape would be soulless. Since the soul cannot be observed, it would in any case be a rather inane statement.

You are right, conception is when all human life begins. Wherever that occurs during sex or (sadly) in a petry dish. Babies conceived through immoral means are no less human beings and just as much loved by God and of course have souls! You are right on the money!

 

[weller2]

Yes embryo selection is always evil.

That much we could both agree on. The question is why exactly embryo selection is evil. Or, to put it differently, why exactly the society shown in Gattaca is evil.

Hmm…don’t remember the Catholic Church ever wanting any Jews killed?

Read what I wrote again carefully. It’s not that the Catholic Church wanted them killed; the Catholic Church held a certain belief which has been exploited by another party who wanted them killed – and millions of lay Catholics jumped to do the actual killing. There was a total of one (!) conscious objector and even his priest tried to talk him into participating.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Everything is there at conception, yes.

Yes embryo selection is always evil.

Okay now I’m dangerous for believing life begins at conception?

Hmm…don’t remember the Catholic Church ever wanting any Jews killed?

Abortion has killed far more humans than all wars put together! In the US a twin towers falls every single day through abortion. That’s not including all the early abortions that abortion pills and birth control pills, shots, etc cause.

Why on earth am I having to defend unborn human life on a Catholic Forum???

Now you know how I felt about the baptism thing… But yes, I agree with you that this is getting out of hand.

Lets just step back and look at things we know.

1. The Church teaches that Mary was free from sin at conception. The only way her soul could have been free from sin was if she actually had a soul.
2. Logically, medicine and modern technology has given us insight that Aquinas et al did not have. We know that a baby passing through the uterine canal has no bearing on ensoulment. Babies are born by C section in many countries. Heck in many south american countries C section is the norm. And we know that a baby cut from the womb at 24 weeks can survive with regularity outside the womb so we could theoretically baptize a baby at 22-24 weeks gestation. So we know that at least at 22-24 weeks ensoulment has occurred. If the soul is the “life” of a person then the question we are asking is “when does life begin” which is a pretty basic pro life Catholic Question.

I really see no reason why this should be so difficult.

Now, onto the real question of the thread. By what means can a human being be saved?

Well the Church is pretty clear on that as well.

 

[jmcrae]

I hesitate to ask this question, because it may reinforce what I believe to be the point of the article, namely that early abortion or embryonic stem cell research is OK, and I believe they are not. However, I will ask anyway. Does the Church teach that the soul is created at the moment of conception?

This is my understanding.

I know that nothing has been officially defined by the Church except that when human life begins, God gives the soul - however, biological science shows us that the cells begin to divide and all of the DNA is present at the time of conception - it is a living organism at the moment of conception, meaning that it is a human person, because the soul is the life of the body - we have a human body, and it is alive; therefore, it has a human soul.

As to what happens to the soul if the child should die before being baptized, we simply cannot know.

 

[Convert_in_99]

This is my understanding.

I know that nothing has been officially defined by the Church except that when human life begins, God gives the soul - however, biological science shows us that the cells begin to divide and all of the DNA is present at the time of conception - it is a living organism at the moment of conception, meaning that it is a human person, because the soul is the life of the body - we have a human body, and it is alive; therefore, it has a human soul.

As to what happens to the soul if the child should die before being baptized, we simply cannot know.

Well put! :clapping:

 

[jmcrae]

That much we could both agree on. The question is why exactly embryo selection is evil. Or, to put it differently, why exactly the society shown in Gattaca is evil.

Read what I wrote again carefully. It’s not that the Catholic Church wanted them killed; the Catholic Church held a certain belief which has been exploited by another party who wanted them killed – and millions of lay Catholics jumped to do the actual killing. There was a total of one (!) conscious objector and even his priest tried to talk him into participating.

That’s ridiculous. Read Dying, We Live to read the last letters home of dozens of Catholic conscientious objectors who died rather than be party to murder.

 

[on_the_hill]

Why on earth am I having to defend unborn human life on a Catholic Forum???

Where do you get the idea that you’re having to defend unborn life on CAF?

Which posts are not pro-life?



If you’re referring to my posts, I haven’t made any statements whatsoever about unborn human life. What I did do was question why you are afraid of discussing Catholic Church documents. Again, if you’re accusing me of not being pro-life, I ask you: How on earth did my posts get twisted into my not being pro-life?

 

[Convert_in_99]

Where do you get the idea that you’re having to defend unborn life on CAF?

Which posts are not pro-life?



If you’re referring to my posts, I haven’t made any statements whatsoever about unborn human life. What I did do was question why you are afraid of discussing Catholic Church documents. Again, if you’re accusing me of not being pro-life, I ask you: How on earth did my posts get twisted into my not being pro-life?

Not referring to you on prolife issues

I have problems with innocents not making it to heaven cause of lack of baptism. I realize there are valid arguments both ways, even if I choose not to agree with one it’s still valid argument. We simply don’t know. What we DO know is from both science and faith is that life begins at conception and that a human is a human from that moment on, regardless if the baby has implanted yet or not. Other posters have made clear they do not agree with this.

 

[on_the_hill]

Not referring to you on prolife issues

I have problems with innocents not making it to heaven cause of lack of baptism. I realize there are valid arguments both ways, even if I choose not to agree with one it’s still valid argument. We simply don’t know. What we DO know is from both science and faith is that life begins at conception and that a human is a human from that moment on, regardless if the baby has implanted yet or not. Other posters have made clear they do not agree with this.

In that case…. I apologize.

I’m not sure how to resolve Original Sin, conception, unbaptized infants…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

In that case…. I apologize.

I’m not sure how to resolve Original Sin, conception, unbaptized infants…

I don’t think anyone is…

 

[mdgspencer]

I wouldn’t be surprised if most of the people in heaven were unborn babies.
I would not however automatically accept the reliability of the “expert” cited in the opening post.
The Church has never said where unborn babies go. They couldn’t join lost souls, but must be in a place of happiness. But where do they go? Neither the Church, nor Scripture, says where they go.
I would simply thrust God for the rightness of what happens to them.

 

[petra22]

I wouldn’t be surprised if most of the people in heaven were unborn babies.
I would not however automatically accept the reliability of the “expert” cited in the opening post.
The Church has never said where unborn babies go. They couldn’t join lost souls, but must be in a place of happiness. But where do they go? Neither the Church, nor Scripture, says where they go.
I would simply thrust God for the rightness of what happens to them.

ME2!

 

[epan]

This is my understanding.

I know that nothing has been officially defined by the Church except that when human life begins, God gives the soul - however, biological science shows us that the cells begin to divide and all of the DNA is present at the time of conception - it is a living organism at the moment of conception, meaning that it is a human person, because the soul is the life of the body - we have a human body, and it is alive; therefore, it has a human soul.

As to what happens to the soul if the child should die before being baptized, we simply cannot know.

St Augustine claimed to know. He said that unbaptized infants suffer eternal damnation. Indeed, there would be no need for infant baptism, if there was not a stain of original sin already present.

Otherwise, baptism is just an initiation ritual, and everyone is born into a state of grace.

I understand the sentimentality, or not wanting to think of a child as being stained by sin. However, the doctrine is not about such sentimentality.

 

[jmcrae]

St Augustine claimed to know. He said that unbaptized infants suffer eternal damnation. Indeed, there would be no need for infant baptism, if there was not a stain of original sin already present.

Otherwise, baptism is just an initiation ritual, and everyone is born into a state of grace.

I understand the sentimentality, or not wanting to think of a child as being stained by sin. However, the doctrine is not about such sentimentality.

The great St. Augustine was giving a reasoned opinion, and it’s certainly logical. However the Church does not give any definite answer to this question, but rather encourages us to baptize our children at the earliest reasonable opportunity, while at the same time inviting us to trust in God’s ocean of mercy.

 

[epan]

The great St. Augustine was giving a reasoned opinion, and it’s certainly logical. However the Church does not give any definite answer to this question, but rather encourages us to baptize our children at the earliest reasonable opportunity, while at the same time inviting us to trust in God’s ocean of mercy.

Why does the Catholic Church encourage baptism at the earliest reasonable opportunity?

 

[oneofmany]

delete

 

[oneofmany]

I came across this article and it’s really troubling to me… does God really allow 60-80% of humans to never even be born? What’s the point?

“John Opitz, a professor of pediatrics, human genetics, and obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Utah, testified before the President’s Council on Bioethics that between 60 and 80 percent of all naturally conceived embryos are simply flushed out in women’s normal menstrual flows unnoticed. This is not miscarriage we’re talking about. The women and their husbands or partners never even know that conception has taken place; the embryos disappear from their wombs in their menstrual flows. In fact, according to Opitz, embryologists estimate that the rate of natural loss for embryos that have developed for seven days or more is 60 percent. The total rate of natural loss of human embryos increases to at least 80 percent if one counts from the moment of conception. About half of the embryos lost are abnormal, but half are not, and had they implanted they would probably have developed into healthy babies”
here’s the entire article:t’s an article that is attempting to support embryonic stem cell research by attacking the claim that embryos have souls.
reason.com/archives/2004/12/22/is-heaven-populated-chiefly-by

LOL, what a crazy study. No one knows they existed but yes, they did exist. He also gives a percentage. What? The couple don’t know they were there and no one else knows there were there but he has a percentage of them being there. Just who is this quack anyway?
I

 

[epan]

LOL, what a crazy study. No one knows they existed but yes, they did exist. He also gives a percentage. What? The couple don’t know they were there and no one else knows there were there but he has a percentage of them being there. Just who is this quack anyway?
I

The “quack” is:

Pediatrics - Professor
Human Genetics - Adjunct Professor
Obstetrics/Gynecology - Adjunct Professor
Pathology - Adjunct Professor

At the University of Utah

His board certifications are:

American Board of Medical Genetics (Clinical Genetics)
American Board of Pediatrics (Pediatrics)

He was born in Germany, and he received his medical eduction and training in Iowa and Wisconsin.

I hope this satisfies you to substantiate his quackery.

What are your qualifications in this area of expertise?

 

[jtauke]

The “quack” is:

Pediatrics - Professor
Human Genetics - Adjunct Professor
Obstetrics/Gynecology - Adjunct Professor
Pathology - Adjunct Professor

At the University of Utah

His board certifications are:

American Board of Medical Genetics (Clinical Genetics)
American Board of Pediatrics (Pediatrics)

He was born in Germany, and he received his medical eduction and training in Iowa and Wisconsin.

I hope this satisfies you to substantiate his quackery.

What are your qualifications in this area of expertise?

Claps