Is Hell Crowded or Empty?

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Led me to wonder about this thought…because if everyone is saved, then what is the point of following any religion
I think that the fact that Christians ask this question is one of the strongest arguments for universalism. There are all kinds of reasons to practice any given religion. The idea that the only reason to practice a religion is to avoid hell is, to my mind, bizarre and horrifying, and it needs explaining.
, one could just go the secular humanist route and try to “be a good person” and God would forgive the rest.
And someone who is genuinely convinced, in good faith, based on their earnest attempt to know the truth and do the good, that “secular humanism” is correct, then yes, that would be possible.

But obviously a person who knew that Christianity was true but chose to follow secular humanism would not be acting in good faith. Such a choice would tend to separate you from God, to corrupt and destroy you.

Even if, somehow, you repented at the end and were saved, the corrupt choice to turn away from the truth would still have done you immense damage and prevented you from living your life as God intended it.

That’s surely reason enough to follow the truth.

And without having watched the video, I doubt that Fr. Barron was teaching that everyone will inevitably be saved. That might have the effect you worry about, because it would mean that those choices that naturally tend toward damnation can be confidently expected not to have their natural effect, making them to some degree meaningless (not entirely, because they would still have effects on this life and Purgatory and might also limit the degree to which one was capable of enjoying the Beatific Vision).

But unless I’m mistaken, an orthodox Catholic is not allowed to hold that everyone will be saved.

If Fr. Barron just saying that everyone may be saved, then we still need to worry about damnation. The “hopeful universalist” position is conditional: everyone will be saved if everyone eventually repents. Choices that take you away from the truth do put your soul in danger.
My mother goes to Mass Christmas and Easter (sometimes)…today when I was on my way out of the house to go to Mass she said, “Should I go to Mass?” and I said, “Well…you should always go to Mass,” and then she proceeded to not go to Mass. Later on this evening, I convinced her to sign all three of us (mom, dad, and I) up for a Fr. Barron study series they will be having at my parish, and I said, “You’ll definitely learn a lot…” and she responded, “Oh, I want to learn…the Church has opened its mind a lot, you couldn’t POSSIBLY believe the stuff the nuns and priests used to teach me back in the 50s and 60s…” to which I replied, “The stuff you learned back then is still the same now, mom…” and she just repeated, “Well…they’ve opened up their minds about a lot…” I give that example just to give a glimpse of where my mother is at in her faith…and it’s very troubling to me, to say the least.
Well, the “stuff” isn’t all the same. It depends on what you mean by “stuff.”

The Catholic Church can claim to be “unchanging” in the sense that it does not contradict its solemnly promulgated teachings. But all kinds of other stuff does in fact change.

What you would hear in catechesis in the 50s and what even so relatively conservative a teacher as Fr. Barron would say today is indeed quite different.

I’m glad to hear that your parents are willing to go to this study series.

A lot of Catholics, who grew up with the idea that “nothing changes,” were very confused by the changes after Vatican II and jumped to the conclusion that therefore everything was up for grabs and they could just pick and choose whatever bits of Catholicism they liked. As a non-Catholic who has tottered on the verge of conversion to Catholicism for years, I’ve encountered this attitude frequently.
I tell you all that to say…while I don’t particularly agree with the “everyone gets to Heaven no matter what” philosophy that some have put forth, I also can’t condemn my parents to Hell for their shortcomings in their faith life either. While they may not be following their faith the way they should, they are still decent people, and I’m not sure what I am supposed to believe about God’s mercy and justice when it comes to people like my parents. I know we shouldn’t encourage the “just be a good person” attitude, because like I said, what then is the point of following a religion? But the alternative is that good, decent people like my parents will be in Hell…
No. According to Catholic teaching, you need “full knowledge and deliberate consent” to commit a mortal sin.

No human being is in a position to judge whether any other human being has “full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

Hence, you are in no position to judge whether your parents are headed for hell or not.

Also, you seem to be confusing very different things. Your first example is of your mother failing to go to Mass (I assume that this was a Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation). According to Catholic teaching, that’s a grave sin.

Your second example is of your father’s speaking disparagingly of a political statement by the U.S. bishops. Perhaps he is speaking with a lack of respect for the bishops, but that’s not necessarily a rejection of the teaching of the Church itself. One can accept Church teaching while thinking that the specific political actions of the bishops leave a lot to be desired.

Edwin
 
No, we may believe. We can “believe” in Limbo if we please, although the modern Church does not promote such an idea, and expresses “hope” (there’s that word) of full salvation for unbaptized babies (CCC 1261). We are free to believe that unbaptized babies can attain full salvation - we are not limited to hope alone. We are also free to reject this “hope” and believe otherwise (ie, Limbo).

If we can “believe” in Limbo, we can “believe” that hell is empty. Neither are contrary to Catholic Doctrine.

We can also “believe” that hell is crowded, which is also not contrary to Catholic doctrine (but is equally “presumptuous”).
Isn’t the word “believe” equivocal here?

Isn’t the point that you can’t make the fullness or emptiness of hell a matter of doctrine. If “believe” just means “hold an opinion” then I agree with you.

Edwin
 
Also, you seem to be confusing very different things. Your first example is of your mother failing to go to Mass (I assume that this was a Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation). According to Catholic teaching, that’s a grave sin.
Thank you for your response. No, I am not confusing two different things, these are just two different examples to give an overall feel of the lukewarmness of my parent’s faith. The casualness with which they decide on these things and make flippant remarks without truly understanding or trying to understand. I was not making them equal in any way, they are two very different examples, and they were given for a specific purpose, as I said.

Thank you for your response, it is the most on topic of them all.

God bless,
Paul
 
So then, why be Catholic? If everyone goes to Heaven…what’s the incentive for being Catholic, and how does it make sense given the Gospel passage the first responder provided…?
To me that is asking why look a beautiful sunset. Being a Catholic is a joy in and of itself.
 
Only God will decide who goes where…We just gotta hope were chosen for Heaven
God does not choose anyone to go to Hell.
Anyone who goes to Hell is there by their own choice by committing mortal sin and dying unrepentant.
 
No, we may believe. We can “believe” in Limbo if we please, although the modern Church does not promote such an idea, and expresses “hope” (there’s that word) of full salvation for unbaptized babies (CCC 1261). We are free to believe that unbaptized babies can attain full salvation - we are not limited to hope alone. We are also free to reject this “hope” and believe otherwise (ie, Limbo).

If we can “believe” in Limbo, we can “believe” that hell is empty. Neither are contrary to Catholic Doctrine.

We can also “believe” that hell is crowded, which is also not contrary to Catholic doctrine (but is equally “presumptuous”).
I’ll argue that this is incorrect.

(unless as another poster suggested, you mean something else when you say “believe”).

This is from the Council of Trent:

Neither anyone, as long as he is living in [our present] mortal condition, is to so overrate the secret mystery of divine predestination so as to declare himself absolutely certain of being counted amongst the definitive and final number of the predestined [for heaven]….In fact, there is no way of knowing those whom God has chosen except through a special divine revelation (Dz. 805). If anyone affirms that a man born again * and justified is obliged by faith to believe that he is certainly to be included in the number of predestined, let him be anathema (Dz. 825).

So we can see that quite apart from every other soul, we may not even believe in our own certain salvation. I am not permitted to believe (by which I mean assume) in an empty hell, because that denies the possibility that I will be sent there.

So, I hope that I will be saved, but I am not free to believe that I will be.

Thus, I hope hell will be empty, but I am not free to believe that it will be.*
 
So then, why be Catholic? If everyone goes to Heaven…what’s the incentive for being Catholic, and how does it make sense given the Gospel passage the first responder provided…?
If we understand that God is someone who does things the best way (philosophically because he cannot do things less than perfect) then we have to wonder why he went to all the trouble to start a Church and protect it from wrong. There has to be a reason why He did this and that it is in our best interest to investigate and participate. After all, He wills for us salvation but gives us free will so we can show His glory of His creations.

mdcpensive1
 
I tell you all that to say…while I don’t particularly agree with the “everyone gets to Heaven no matter what” philosophy that some have put forth, I also can’t condemn my parents to Hell for their shortcomings in their faith life either. While they may not be following their faith the way they should, they are still decent people, and I’m not sure what I am supposed to believe about God’s mercy and justice when it comes to people like my parents. I know we shouldn’t encourage the “just be a good person” attitude, because like I said, what then is the point of following a religion? But the alternative is that good, decent people like my parents will be in Hell…

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
Paul
Paul,
most of us feel that our parents are decent sorts but not the best of saints.
Even our Church takes this very view of it’s own (from Pope down to you and me). We are even told to expect to be standing shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Benedict and John Paul 2 when the Kingdom comes. I think that ‘puts us in our place’.
I agree that you cannot condemn your parents but then again, you shouldn’t! Honour them as best you know how while accepting that their actions need help/work/brushing up!

We could leave our thoughts at “live a good life and see how it goes” but this is exactly where the glory of believing in Jesus and obeying our Mother Church comes into play.
Being a Catholic has that wonderful advantage of being able to pray for eachother. Of course God listens to all of mankind but the difference with being Catholic is that WE KNOW that He listens and that He does something!

And so many Catholics are willing to pray for others:
  1. I’ll bet, if you ask this forum, that many will pray for your parents.
  2. I’ll bet, if you don’t ask, that many will pray for them anyway.
As for hell…, I think purgatory is the more likely place your parents will end up in. I’ll probably meet you there too. So be at peace. Let God take His time to effect your parents’ growth/change/conversion but remember to put in some time on your knees too.

God bless!
 
I’ll argue that this is incorrect.

(unless as another poster suggested, you mean something else when you say “believe”).

This is from the Council of Trent:

Neither anyone, as long as he is living in [our present] mortal condition, is to so overrate the secret mystery of divine predestination so as to declare himself absolutely certain of being counted amongst the definitive and final number of the predestined [for heaven]….In fact, there is no way of knowing those whom God has chosen except through a special divine revelation (Dz. 805). If anyone affirms that a man born again * and justified is obliged by faith to believe that he is certainly to be included in the number of predestined, let him be anathema (Dz. 825).*

So we can see that quite apart from every other soul, we may not even believe in our own certain salvation. I am not permitted to believe (by which I mean assume) in an empty hell, because that denies the possibility that I will be sent there.

So, I hope that I will be saved, but I am not free to believe that I will be.

Thus, I hope hell will be empty, but I am not free to believe that it will be.

Your quote from the Council of Trent says nothing about Hell being empty or not. In fact it doesn’t say anything about Hell.
It is saying that anyone who believes they know in advance that they are saved is wrong.

The Church teaches that anyone who dies in a state of grace is saved and anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell.

As for who is in Hell and how many, if any, is not known to the Church which is why there is no teaching on this matter.
David Filmer is correct that we may believe Hell is crowded, less crowded or empty because such a belief does not contradict any Church teaching.

Personally, I believe Hell has a lot of souls there based on what Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14.

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
14 How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few."
 
Your quote from the Council of Trent says nothing about Hell being empty or not. In fact it doesn’t say anything about Hell.
It is saying that anyone who believes they know in advance that they are saved is wrong.

The Church teaches that anyone who dies in a state of grace is saved and anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell.

As for who is in Hell and how many, if any, is not known to the Church which is why there is no teaching on this matter.
David Filmer is correct that we may believe Hell is crowded, less crowded or empty because such a belief does not contradict any Church teaching.

Personally, I believe Hell has a lot of souls there based on what Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14.

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
14 How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few."
I can believe that I *may *be saved; I can believe that hell *may *be empty. But I cannot believe that I *will *be saved (as per the Council of Trent quote), I cannot believe that hell *will *be empty.

Pretty clear logic here. If you believe in an empty hell, you presume your own salvation; which we are not allowed to do. You may hope for an empty hell; you may even believe in the possibility of an empty hell. But to take this belief any further than possibility is presuming your own salvation. I hope that clarifies why the quote is entirely relevant.
 
So then, why be Catholic? If everyone goes to Heaven…what’s the incentive for being Catholic, and how does it make sense given the Gospel passage the first responder provided…?
DaveFilmer’s answer is completely and satisfyingly correct: we are Catholics, ultimately, because we love Jesus Christ and the living God, not because we are self-motivated by a desire to save ourselves from Hell (although that can be a useful tool for some in some cases).

However, if it helps, I have always understood the choirs of Heaven to be hierarchical, with the greatest saints attaining the greatest perfection and glory in Heaven, and those of us who barely snuck in the back door from Purgratory finding ourselves perfected and forever happy, but incapable of sharing completely in the degree of joy experienced by the greatest saints. Therefore, it is to our advantage to remain faithfully Catholic, even if nobody ends up in Hell. I’m not certain whether there is doctrinal basis for my opinion.

In any event, the fear of Purgatory – which comes complete with all the pains of Hell! – should be quite enough to motivate anyone to pursue the shortest possible course to Heaven.
 
Better answer: We know Hell is a possibility, so why would we stop caring if we know that we may go there? We have no idea how many people are there. The only sure way to avoid it is to follow Jesus-and that’s what we should do anyway!
 
After reading St. Leonard’s sermon, hell is overcrowded.
olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml

And in my opinion, one soul in hell is overcrowded.

So somewhere between my opinion and St. Leonard’s opinion is the correct number.
 
After reading St. Leonard’s sermon, hell is overcrowded.
olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml

And in my opinion, one soul in hell is overcrowded.

So somewhere between my opinion and St. Leonard’s opinion is the correct number.
The CCC suggests that there are individuals who are in Hell:
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
 
As Contarini points out, “believe” can have multiple meanings, but I think the difference between “hoping” for an empty hell and “believing” that hell is empty is something like this:
  1. We may hope that hell is empty (of humans, at least), since the offer of salvation and sufficient grace to be saved are granted to every human, and thus at least hypothetically every single human being could be saved. We do not hold the belief that some humans are created specifically to be damned or denied the grace they would need to be saved.
  2. We may not believe with assurance (perhaps “presume” would be a better word) that hell is empty of humans, because universalism is a heresy. That is, even though it is possible that all humans will be saved (as above), it is wrong to presume that God necessarily will or must save all. Scripture and Tradition, even if not read to indicate that there are certainly humans in hell, certainly cannot be read to close off even the possibility of damnation.
So, if by “believe” you mean something like the first option, then cool. If by “believe” you mean the second, not cool (as far as my understanding of Catholic teaching is concerned, anyway).

That’s also why we may “hope” but are not assured that the innocent unbaptized are saved. God is not bound by the sacraments, and we know He wills that all be saved, so it is possible. On the other hand, baptism is the only certain way to be rid of original sin that has been revealed to us, and the Church has repeatedly stressed the gravity of original sin even apart from personal sins, so it would be going too far to state that we know such souls are saved.

In both cases “We haven’t been told, but based on what we know of God, it is reasonable to hope” is as far as we may safely go.

Usagi
 
Logically if what those saints were saying is correct, it leads to the inevitable conclusion that God for whatever reason, is, in the end, allowing satan to have the much larger victory over humanity if the vast majority of humans are going to hell. It seems the deck has been stacked against us if thats true. That makes attempting to work out salvation sheer terror with the likelihood of going to hell anyway.

I’m not denying that the world is a cesspool today because it is, and it’s getting worse. All you have to do is look around, and watch the news, tv, movies, browse the internet, and listen to music.

The only real conclusion I can draw from this is the only people who are going to make it to heaven are literally saints, and I mean the canonized kind. So if anyone is going to have a chance of making it to heaven they have to live as detached from the world, and radical as the saints. Very very few people are able to rise to that occasion. This isn’t for ordinary people it is for extraordinary people.

Saint Paul wasn’t kidding when he said, “continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling” Philippians 2:12… heavy on the fear.

Let’s hope God is more merciful than the saints are making Him out to be.
 
Almost empty.

To reject God eternally is our very own personal choice…there are so many factors and variables involved, and so deep is our heart, and so great our ignorance, that it is actually rather difficult to force our beloved Lord from bringing us onto His heavenly presence. Most of us are rebel and blind…and the Lord said: “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin”.

It’s a mystery…a mystery of love…we ought to love and do everything for God…yet, we don’t need to do anything for Him to love us…
 
Crowded or empty? When I get there I’ll let you know.

I’ve always been focused on the ‘here and now’… Doing the right things while you’re alive just for the sake of doing the right things, not because you’re afraid of punishment if you don’t.
 
Almost empty.

To reject God eternally is our very own personal choice…there are so many factors and variables involved, and so deep is our heart, and so great our ignorance, that it is actually rather difficult to force our beloved Lord from bringing us onto His heavenly presence. Most of us are rebel and blind…and the Lord said: “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin”.

It’s a mystery…a mystery of love…we ought to love and do everything for God…yet, we don’t need to do anything for Him to love us…
Scripture says differently, from Matthew chapter 7, in Christ’s own words::

13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
 
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