Is Hell Just?

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Forloveofwisdom

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I have been told by theologians that Catholics view Eternal Hell as a form of justice. But how can the Church believe this in light of their views on the dignity of the human person and the purpose of punishment?
Code: 
 I quote the Catechism Paragraph 2266: "...Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty part." 

 Further, in Paragraph 2267 about the Death Penalty: "If...non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person."

 So, how can the Church believe on the one hand that the primary aim of punishment is reform and rehabilitation and  on the other believe in eternal punishment where people will endure unrelenting torture without the hope of reform or rehabilitation? How can the Church on the one hand believe that sentencing someone to a physical, temporal death is against fundamental human dignity and at the same time believe some people are condemned to eternal spiritual death, something far, far, far worse than any kind of death they could face on Earth. How can the Church on the one hand believe that punishment should be "proportionate to the gravity of the offense" (Paragraph 2266) and on the other believe that ETERNAL punishment is waiting for people who have carried out crimes (or sins if you want to call them that), no matter how heinous, in a no more than a 120 year period?

I'm not saying that people would not face some form of punishment after death. But think about this. I mean REALLY think about this. ETERNAL spiritual death without the hope of rehabilitation or reform for sins committed over no more than 120 years? Does that sound like justice to you?

 So, please answer my question directly: How in the hell can Hell be just?
 
An awful lot of questions. Heaven is mercy, as no one deserves it. Knowing that as a baseline, the Church condemns no one to hell - that is the individual soul’s milieu. What you are pondering is the morality of defending innocent life. In so doing, it is accepted that loss of guilty life may occur. However, that loss cannot be intentional, or the defender then becomes a guilty party.

If a murderer cannot be prevented or restrained from further acts of endangering innocent life, it is imperfect earthly justice, under limited circumstances, to require that life of the guilty party - while not passing judgment on the state of that person’s soul.

Repentance in an individual’s soul subjects him or her to Divine Mercy - in some cases allaying the application of justice. But, that is God’s judgment and work, not man’s. The Church deals with earthly justice, applying moral norms.
 
First, I don’t believe an Earthly Church could ever hold sway over whether or not someone goes to Hell. In the Church’s understanding, people send themselves. So I wasn’t asking about the justice of the Church sending people to Hell. I was asking about the Justice of God allowing Hell to even exist.

Second, if Heaven is mercy and no one deserves it, that sounds an awful lot like the Protestant notion of justification (salvation) through faith alone. As far as I know, the Catholic idea is that people have Free Will and the actions they carry out on Earth in large part determine where they “go” after death. Sure, God’s mercy can inform judgment, but if “mercy” was the ONLY deciding factor as to where someone ends up, we wouldn’t even have a notion of Hell.

Third, isn’t out justice supposed to be a reflection of the Divine Justice? Aren’t Catholics supposed to be “imitators of Christ”? So if our justice is different from God’s, then where are we getting our ideas of justice? What eternal ideal of the Just are we measuring ourselves against than? Also, isn’t God all Just? So isn’t God our standard for Justice?
 
Forloveofwisdom said:
I have been told by theologians that Catholics view Eternal Hell as a form of justice. But how can the Church believe this in light of their views on the dignity of the human person and the purpose of punishment?
Code: 
 I quote the Catechism Paragraph 2266: "...Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty part." 

 Further, in Paragraph 2267 about the Death Penalty: "If...non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person."
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And what do these paragraphs deal with? Civil justice, not divine justice. How man treats other men, who are just as flawed and just as much sinners, is one thing. How God deals with unrepentant sinners is another matter altogether.
So, how can the Church believe on the one hand that the primary aim of punishment is reform and rehabilitation and on the other believe in eternal punishment where people will endure unrelenting torture without the hope of reform or rehabilitation? How can the Church on the one hand believe that sentencing someone to a physical, temporal death is against fundamental human dignity and at the same time believe some people are condemned to eternal spiritual death, something far, far, far worse than any kind of death they could face on Earth. How can the Church on the one hand believe that punishment should be “proportionate to the gravity of the offense” (Paragraph 2266) and on the other believe that ETERNAL punishment is waiting for people who have carried out crimes (or sins if you want to call them that), no matter how heinous, in a no more than a 120 year period?
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You are talking as if the Church decides our eternal fate. She doesn’t, you know. Only God determines that–and it’s up to him and him alone to make that decision. The Church can only teach the truth and guide people. She cannot make anyone do anything, for good or evil–that’s up to each person’s own will.
I’m not saying that people would not face some form of punishment after death. But think about this. I mean REALLY think about this. ETERNAL spiritual death without the hope of rehabilitation or reform for sins committed over no more than 120 years? Does that sound like justice to you?
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Do you know what eternity is? You seem to have the idea that it’s like the passing years we experience here on earth. It isn’t that. There is no time in eternity–it’s always right now. There is no passage of time, and thus no opportunities to change anything because what you are when you enter eternity is what you will be. That’s why purgatory is a mercy for us–it’s our last chance to make up for the temporal punishment due to our venial sins. At the judgment we’ll each stand before God and he will tell us where we will be and we’ll know why and agree with him.
So, please answer my question directly: How in the hell can Hell be just?
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Hell is just because it is what some choose for themselves by their unrepentance. It’s not that our most heinous sins cannot be forgiven, but that people don’t want to be forgiven. It may be hard to imagine, but those in hell are there because that’s where they want to be–apart from God as immortal beings. God is just. He never sends anyone to hell who doesn’t belong there.
 
Forloveofwisdom said:
I have been told by theologians that Catholics view Eternal Hell as a form of justice. But how can the Church believe this in light of their views on the dignity of the human person and the purpose of punishment?
Code: 
 I quote the Catechism Paragraph 2266: "...Legitimate public authority"

 Further, in Paragraph 2267 about the Death Penalty: "If...non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor"

 So, how can the Church believe on the one hand that the primary aim of punishment is reform and rehabilitation and  on the other believe in eternal punishment where people will endure unrelenting torture without the hope of reform or rehabilitation?
Click to expand...
The difference is that the paragraphs you quote are discussing human justice – that is, what human institutions may do to in response to human immoral (criminal) activity. The sentence that precedes your quote points this out: “The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights…”

So, there are differing standards, inasmuch as these are differing actions. On one hand, we have the taking of human life by other humans (after all, you are quoting from the section on the commandment “thou shalt not kill”); on the other hand, you’re asking about divine justice for those who reject God.

The two are distinct situations, wouldn’t you say?
Code: 
I'm not saying that people would not face some form of punishment after death. But think about this. I mean REALLY think about this. ETERNAL spiritual death without the hope of rehabilitation or reform for sins committed over no more than 120 years? Does that sound like justice to you?
Click to expand...
Code: 
 So, please answer my question directly: How in the hell can Hell be just?
Click to expand...
Through their actions, people choose their eternal destiny. For those who choose to separate themselves from God, an eternity without God is what they receive. Is that not just? Hell is less ‘punishment’ than it is ‘consequence’ – or, more to the point, wish-fulfillment. 🤷
 
First, again, the ideas of civil justice are supposed to be informed by what we believe about Divine Justice! If they’re not, then were are we getting out ideas about Justice? This is a flawed argument because carried to it’s logical end it means we can’t know anything about how to act according to God’s will through your reasoning faculties. If this is true, then in what is your morality based? The Bible? But what does the Bible say about abortion or contraception? Where are you getting your morals for that?

Second, I’m not saying the CHURCH condemns people to Hell. I’m showing a very real and all to obvious logical contradiction in the Church’s teachings about human dignity and punishment.

Third, Eternal is NOT the same as infinite. The Church says God is Infinite and that is why he cannot move or change. Hell is very much a temporal place. Don’t you believe in the resurrection? You know where everyone gets their bodies back, not just people in Heaven. Look it up. And how can a MATERIAL body exist outside of TIME? It can’t. This would very much allow for change.

Also, because someone made ONE, MOMENTARY choice they have to live with that decision FOREVER? Does that make sense? Is that Just?
 
We are what we make ourselves to be. We can either do that in cooperation with God’s graces and according to His will, or we can go iur own way. If we do the former, our souls will become beautiful and when we die, we will pass over to eternit, fit or almost fit for Heaven. God grants us the mercy of Purgatory if we are not quite fit.

But those who deform their souls through living in opposition to God or what they know of God make their souls ugly and dirty–“nothing unclean shall enter the Gates of Heaven.” Only a small amount of change is available to us through Purgatory; those who die guilty of mortal sin need too much change for Purgatory and so they must descend to Hell.

Now, this would be unjust except for the fact that we have anlot of help in this life. The Laws of God are inscribed on our hearts, The Church teaches us, God sends His grace to us in many ways including through the actions of the Church (the sacraments). It’s not like God is keeping secret how to avoid Hell!
 
Forloveofwisdom said:
First, I don’t believe an Earthly Church could ever hold sway over whether or not someone goes to Hell. In the Church’s understanding, people send themselves. So I wasn’t asking about the justice of the Church sending people to Hell. I was asking about the Justice of God allowing Hell to even exist.

Second, if Heaven is mercy and no one deserves it, that sounds an awful lot like the Protestant notion of justification (salvation) through faith alone. As far as I know, the Catholic idea is that people have Free Will and the actions they carry out on Earth in large part determine where they “go” after death. Sure, God’s mercy can inform judgment, but if “mercy” was the ONLY deciding factor as to where someone ends up, we wouldn’t even have a notion of Hell.

Third, isn’t out justice supposed to be a reflection of the Divine Justice? Aren’t Catholics supposed to be “imitators of Christ”? So if our justice is different from God’s, then where are we getting our ideas of justice? What eternal ideal of the Just are we measuring ourselves against than? Also, isn’t God all Just? So isn’t God our standard for Justice?
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We know that God is perfect justice so we know what ever happens to someone in the afterlife will be perfectly just. Our notions of what is just is necessarily flawed by our limitations which God doesn’t have. The Church can’t and doesn’t say that any particular person is in hell as that hasn’t been revealed but it can and does reflect what Christ said and warned us about hell and what we must believe (faith) and do (morals) to avoid going there.
 
Civil law cannot satisfy all the requirements of justice, because it cannot know a man’s heart perfectly.

Divine Justice, which will be inflicted in Hell (or in Purgatory if the person dies in a state of grace), will account for all that went unpunished here on earth.
 
To put it very simply (to the main question “Is Hell Just?”), yes. We aren’t necessarily sent to Hell, we choose Hell, by choosing to not want to be with God. We choose this by how we live on Earth. God gives us free will and opportunities to choose Him or to not choose Him. Now, the eternity part. How is it just to give us an eternal punishment for something that we did with limited knowledge and understanding. Well, just like the state has the authority to send someone to prison for life (CCC 2267), and the Church cannot take that right away, even though people can change.

Bishop Baron, has some good points on this. God is infinitely merciful, so it could be possible that the will of God is for all to one day be in heaven with Him, however God will not impose His will on ours. If we choose to not be with Him and choose to hate Him, as Satan does, then He won’t make us spend eternity with Him.
 
Forloveofwisdom said:
I have been told by theologians that Catholics view Eternal Hell as a form of justice. But how can the Church believe this in light of their views on the dignity of the human person and the purpose of punishment?
Code: 
 I quote the Catechism Paragraph 2266: "...Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty part." 

 Further, in Paragraph 2267 about the Death Penalty: "If...non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person."

 So, how can the Church believe on the one hand that the primary aim of punishment is reform and rehabilitation and  on the other believe in eternal punishment where people will endure unrelenting torture without the hope of reform or rehabilitation? How can the Church on the one hand believe that sentencing someone to a physical, temporal death is against fundamental human dignity and at the same time believe some people are condemned to eternal spiritual death, something far, far, far worse than any kind of death they could face on Earth. How can the Church on the one hand believe that punishment should be "proportionate to the gravity of the offense" (Paragraph 2266) and on the other believe that ETERNAL punishment is waiting for people who have carried out crimes (or sins if you want to call them that), no matter how heinous, in a no more than a 120 year period?

I'm not saying that people would not face some form of punishment after death. But think about this. I mean REALLY think about this. ETERNAL spiritual death without the hope of rehabilitation or reform for sins committed over no more than 120 years? Does that sound like justice to you?

 So, please answer my question directly: How in the hell can Hell be just?
Click to expand...
Simple hell is separation, if you don’t want God and refuse to accept him and do not want to live with him in paradise you choose hell which is separation from him. Why would it be unjust for God to give you free will to choose him or not?
 
quandy57 said:
To put it very simply (to the main question “Is Hell Just?”), yes. We aren’t necessarily sent to Hell, we choose Hell, by choosing to not want to be with God. We choose this by how we live on Earth. God gives us free will and opportunities to choose Him or to not choose Him.
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This is just about what I was going to say…By asking if hell is just the OP is saying God is not being just and that is totally wrong!
Jesus died for the sins of the world to open the gates of heaven. He wants everyone to go to heaven…many people choose NOT to go there.

Hell was made for the devil & his angels, and his human followers.
 
Hey, if human death is just, then I have no problem at all with Hell!

ICXC NIKA
 
Forloveofwisdom said:
I’m not saying that people would not face some form of punishment after death. But think about this. I mean REALLY think about this. ETERNAL spiritual death without the hope of rehabilitation or reform for sins committed over no more than 120 years? Does that sound like justice to you?

So, please answer my question directly: How in the hell can Hell be just?
Click to expand...
Hell can be just because it is the hellion’s choice to be as far away from God as possible.

God obliges. 🤷
 
Forloveofwisdom said:
…ETERNAL spiritual death without the hope of rehabilitation or reform for sins committed over no more than 120 years? Does that sound like justice to you?
Code: 
 So, please answer my question directly: How in the hell can Hell be just?
Click to expand...
God did not give man the wheelbase to understand His justice. In God, justice, mercy and charity are one, that is they are not in conflict, one against another. Not so in man.

God did give us the grace to understand His charity as that is His commandment to us: “I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another” (John 13:34). If you do not follow His command then you cannot be with Him in eternity. Your choice.
 
Justice comes from Latin, ivstitia, from the root ivs, law.

Therefore justice is perforce whatever those who make law say it is.

ICXC NIKA
 
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