Is Homosexuality A Choice?

[The_Bucket]

I meant catholic truth, not actual truth

Catholic truth is actual Truth, at least insofar as it’s been revealed to humanity. Certainly there may be more God has not revealed to us, but everything that has been revealed is contained in the Church.

 

[PRmerger]

The Catholic church does not decide what is truth, it can only suggest.

Indeed. This is very Catholic of you to say, april.

Although I would use the word “discern” rather than “suggest”

 

[Baelor]

In my opinion, the church is being clever with words.
It is like saying a dog is only a dog, if it barks.

It is not being clever with words. It is a fundamental distinction that is worth noting.

Let us consider a different example: I intend to help someone. I help someone.

Are those two statements identical? No. One reflects a mindset and the other, action. To say they are the same is absurd.

Also I don’t see how the catholic teaching of sex before marriage is a sin, is a moral issue.
It’s like saying kissing, or laughing, or walking before marriage is a moral issue

That is because you do not attribute a moral dimension to sex. The Church does. Do you see how empty your argument is? Consider the statement below:

Also I don’t see how the catholic teaching of murdering someone is a sin, is a moral issue.
It’s like saying kissing, or laughing, or walking before marriage is a moral issue

You are simply asserting your own opinion – that sexuality has no moral dimension – and using that assertion to argue against the Church teaching, which operates fundamentally on a different basis. In the same way, I could claim that murder is not a social issue. Stating my claim does not make it correct.

 

[aprilfloyd]

No, april. It appears you were poorly catechized. The Catholic Church does not view homosexuality as a sin, but rather as a disordered desire.

I stand corrected. But my point was that that is a Catholic view of homosexuality.

 

[aprilfloyd]

Are those two statements identical? No. One reflects a mindset and the other, action. To say they are the same is absurd.

Agreed.

That is because you do not attribute a moral dimension to sex. The Church does. Do you see how empty your argument is?

I do attribute a moral dimension to sex. Just a different one from the Catholic Church.

Consider the statement below:

You are simply asserting your own opinion – that sexuality has no moral dimension – and using that assertion to argue against the Church teaching, which operates fundamentally on a different basis. In the same way, I could claim that murder is not a social issue. Stating my claim does not make it correct.

Don’t follow your argument here - Are you equating sexual morality to murder?

 

[PRmerger]

I stand corrected. But my point was that that is a Catholic view of homosexuality.

If by “a Catholic view” you mean “some people who are Catholic”, then you are correct. Some people who are Catholic do view homosexuality as a sin. But it is not because they are Catholic but rather because they have misunderstood the Catholic Church.

Just like you did.

What “some people who are Catholic” profess ought not be confused with what the Catholic Church proclaims.

 

[Baelor]

I do attribute a moral dimension to sex. Just a different one from the Catholic Church.

Then I am sure you can understand why the Church conceives of sexuality as tied to morality.

Don’t follow your argument here - Are you equating sexual morality to murder?

No; that is a feeble-minded if honest and insidious if dishonest reading of my post.

Your argument: Premarital sex is not a moral issue. Ergo, the Church is wrong.

This argument follows the following argument structurally:

Murder is not a moral issue. Ergo, the Church is wrong.

The argument is not even an argument; it is merely a claim that a particular act does not have a moral dimension. It is vacuous because it is not justified or made productive in any way. What can one do with this other than say that you are not in line with Catholic teaching? Nothing.

 

[PRmerger]

I do attribute a moral dimension to sex. Just a different one from the Catholic Church.

Excellent.

So are you saying that you reserve for yourself what you deny to the Catholic Church?

It does appear as if you are saying, “I get to say what’s a moral condition for sex, but the Catholic Church doesn’t!”. Yes?

 

[aprilfloyd]

If by “a Catholic view” you mean “some people who are Catholic”, then you are correct. Some people who are Catholic do view homosexuality as a sin. But it is not because they are Catholic but rather because they have misunderstood the Catholic Church.

Just like you did.

What “some people who are Catholic” profess ought not be confused with what the Catholic Church proclaims.

I have ‘misunderstood’ the Catholic church all of my life. I think I understand the Catholic Church’s position on homosexuality and sex/love between homosexuals. Thank You

 

[aprilfloyd]

Excellent.

So are you saying that you reserve for yourself what you deny to the Catholic Church?

It does appear as if you are saying, “I get to say what’s a moral condition for sex, but the Catholic Church doesn’t!”. Yes?

Not at all.

Everyone can and does have a view on sexual morality, including the Catholic Church.

 

[Baelor]

Not at all.

Everyone can and does have a view on sexual morality, including the Catholic Church.

But you privilege your own position over that of the Catholic Church when you say that premarital sex is not a moral issue.

Also, is there any reason you have not responded to my posts?

 

[aprilfloyd]

But you privilege your own position over that of the Catholic Church when you say that premarital sex is not a moral issue.

Also, is there any reason you have not responded to my posts?

I thought I had responded maybe you need to clear your cache.

I don’t have any position over the Catholic church. When I say pre-marital sex, I can clarify that further as in not illegal - between consenting adults. I don’t see how morality or 'religious morality comes into that. It’s like saying having dinner is a moral issue and I dare say that someone could male a case for it. But to me it is a trifling matter.

 

[aemcpa]

I thought I had responded maybe you need to clear your cache.

I don’t have any position over the Catholic church. When I say pre-marital sex, I can clarify that further as in not illegal - between consenting adults. I don’t see how morality or 'religious morality comes into that. It’s like saying having dinner is a moral issue and I dare say that someone could male a case for it. But to me it is a trifling matter.

So any sex that is legal is moral and any sex that is illegal is immoral? You’re comfortable with making the State the final determiner of morality but not the Church?

 

[Baelor]

I thought I had responded maybe you need to clear your cache.

You did not respond to my post at 3:04 pm today.

I don’t see how morality or 'religious morality comes into that. It’s like saying having dinner is a moral issue and I dare say that someone could male a case for it. But to me it is a trifling matter.

Exactly. Thank you for sharing your perspective, held by many people on this planet. Did you have anything else to add? You come on this thread and state that the Church is wrong, and offer nothing else. Thanks for sharing, but maybe you could find some more productive way to discuss this issue rather than saying in one sentence that you are correct and Catholicism is wrong?

 

[aprilfloyd]

So any sex that is legal is moral and any sex that is illegal is immoral? You’re comfortable with making the State the final determiner of morality but not the Church?

Most Western legal systems have morality as a base for their criminal laws. And have laws enacted accordingly - rape, sexual assault, indecency, incest, age of consent, marriage etc,. etc,.

Not sure of your first point. or what you mean by the state - you would need to clarify.

Are you suggesting that a church should create our laws - which one? Are you advocating that the Catholic church make law?

 

[Baelor]

Most Western legal systems have morality as a base for their criminal laws. And have laws enacted accordingly - rape, sexual assault, indecency, incest, age of consent, marriage etc,. etc,.

And yet one would be hard-pressed to demonstrate that laws determine intrinsic morality.

 

[aprilfloyd]

You did not respond to my post at 3:04 pm today.

Exactly. Thank you for sharing your perspective, held by many people on this planet. Did you have anything else to add? You come on this thread and state that the Church is wrong, and offer nothing else. Thanks for sharing, but maybe you could find some more productive way to discuss this issue rather than saying in one sentence that you are correct and Catholicism is wrong?

I believe in free speech. I am not your judge - these are my opinions in a discussion forum - nothing more. I don’t offer something else, that does not make sense to me. I prefer to find out answers to many questions people pose in every day life myself included. I don’t intend to start a new religion or church.

 

[aprilfloyd]

And yet one would be hard-pressed to demonstrate that laws determine intrinsic morality.

My own view is that law does not determine morality, but laws can be a product of it.

(Which post have I missed - We are in different time zones)

 

[Baelor]

I believe in free speech. I am not your judge - these are my opinions in a discussion forum - nothing more.

I understand that. But you swoop into this discussion, say that the Church is wrong, and nothing more. No substitute, no elaboration, no explanation. How is that useful to anyone? Do you believe that the posters on this forum are completely unaware that there exist persons who disagree with the Church? If not, what do you believe to have added? This is a Catholic forum. Why come and post that Catholicism is wrong and not explain yourself at all? What good does that do anyone?

 

[aemcpa]

My own view is that law does not determine morality, but laws can be a product of it.

(Which post have I missed - We are in different time zones)

Laws are definitely a product of morality and enforce morality. What is the source of that morality is the question at hand.