D
dshix
Guest
Indeed. So sad.
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Dakota_Roberts
Guest
I don’t think many people who talking about homosexuality as evil or that the attractions are from the devil realize the ramifications of their words and the effects they have on same sex attracted people who hear them.Indeed. So sad.
M
Myqyl
Guest
Again, this is contrary to Church teaching. The Catechism states that gays are born that way.
D
dshix
Guest
You misread what I said. I said “bodytype.”
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Dakota_Roberts
Guest
It does not say they are born that way, but it doesn’t say they weren’t either.
T
thistle
Guest
That statement is totally untrue.
CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
CCC 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
M
mharren
Guest
Just for consideration…
Sex is determined by three factors and they don’t always line up.
Primary Sex Determination:
You’re sex determined by your chromosomes. Usually that is XX=Female and XY=Male. Though sometimes we see abberations such as XXXXXXY or XO.
Secondary Sex Determination
In the womb the gonads are developed based on the Primary Sex determined and the hormones and tissue signalling that occurs. From the Gonads come signally factors that determine the development of the genitals and of the internal gonadal organs. It has long been hypothesized that the Gonads lead the development of sexual characteristics, but there are multiple cases of disorders where this has failed, such as in pseudohermaphroditism in males who appear completely female and have a vagina but actually have testis in the abdomen that produce testosterone which is vital for killing off the female ‘ducts’ to promote male development but the child has been immune to testosterone and it’s derivatives since early development.
All embryo’s start of destined to become female in their secondary sex determination but the secretions of hormones and exposure to them in the womb is what determines if they will become ‘male’ in their secondary sex characteristics. Androgen exposure is responsible for the secondary development of the male phenotype and it has been hypothesized that homosexuality and transgenderism might be a result of too little androgen exposure (Gay men, or Men who identify as Women) or too much androgen exposure (Gay women, of Women who identify as Male) but both of whom are otherwise biologically their chromosomal sex.
Brain Sex
This has only been ‘proven’ in the last decade or two, though it was cited as source for homosexuality and transgender disorders in the past. What is revolutionary about the discovery of brain sex is that the ‘sex’ of the brain is determined BEFORE the gonads are developed. This makes it possible for a female XX embryo that undergoes successful secondary sex determination as a female to actually have a brain characteristic of an XY embryo. Experiments that showed this to be true were demonstrated in chimeras of quail and chick embryo’s where early in development one hemisphere of the brain in a male or female embryo was swapped for a hemisphere from an embryo of the opposite sex. Development in both hemispheres continued to progress to be representative of the sex from whence they originally came regardless of the sex of the actual embryo.
This has led to speculation that perhaps some persons, more so persons who have transgender disorders rather than who are homosexual, are actually in possession of brains that have a different ‘sex’ than their genetic and gonadal sex. This information is still new, but since there are no homosexual or transgender ‘GENES’ as were hoped for during the mapping of the human genome project, hypotheses about developmental factors in utero contributing to gender identity and sexual orientation are again popular.
If this is true, then perhaps homosexuality or gender identity disorders are not sins but functions of development completely outside of behavioral choices.
Just something to think about. If you’re interested in the research that has been done in these areas I encourage you search for relevant keyword on the PubMed database.
Regards,
Sex is determined by three factors and they don’t always line up.
Primary Sex Determination:
You’re sex determined by your chromosomes. Usually that is XX=Female and XY=Male. Though sometimes we see abberations such as XXXXXXY or XO.
Secondary Sex Determination
In the womb the gonads are developed based on the Primary Sex determined and the hormones and tissue signalling that occurs. From the Gonads come signally factors that determine the development of the genitals and of the internal gonadal organs. It has long been hypothesized that the Gonads lead the development of sexual characteristics, but there are multiple cases of disorders where this has failed, such as in pseudohermaphroditism in males who appear completely female and have a vagina but actually have testis in the abdomen that produce testosterone which is vital for killing off the female ‘ducts’ to promote male development but the child has been immune to testosterone and it’s derivatives since early development.
All embryo’s start of destined to become female in their secondary sex determination but the secretions of hormones and exposure to them in the womb is what determines if they will become ‘male’ in their secondary sex characteristics. Androgen exposure is responsible for the secondary development of the male phenotype and it has been hypothesized that homosexuality and transgenderism might be a result of too little androgen exposure (Gay men, or Men who identify as Women) or too much androgen exposure (Gay women, of Women who identify as Male) but both of whom are otherwise biologically their chromosomal sex.
Brain Sex
This has only been ‘proven’ in the last decade or two, though it was cited as source for homosexuality and transgender disorders in the past. What is revolutionary about the discovery of brain sex is that the ‘sex’ of the brain is determined BEFORE the gonads are developed. This makes it possible for a female XX embryo that undergoes successful secondary sex determination as a female to actually have a brain characteristic of an XY embryo. Experiments that showed this to be true were demonstrated in chimeras of quail and chick embryo’s where early in development one hemisphere of the brain in a male or female embryo was swapped for a hemisphere from an embryo of the opposite sex. Development in both hemispheres continued to progress to be representative of the sex from whence they originally came regardless of the sex of the actual embryo.
This has led to speculation that perhaps some persons, more so persons who have transgender disorders rather than who are homosexual, are actually in possession of brains that have a different ‘sex’ than their genetic and gonadal sex. This information is still new, but since there are no homosexual or transgender ‘GENES’ as were hoped for during the mapping of the human genome project, hypotheses about developmental factors in utero contributing to gender identity and sexual orientation are again popular.
If this is true, then perhaps homosexuality or gender identity disorders are not sins but functions of development completely outside of behavioral choices.
Just something to think about. If you’re interested in the research that has been done in these areas I encourage you search for relevant keyword on the PubMed database.
Regards,
- Mharren:blush:
D
dshix
Guest
Bizarre.
B
Blue_Horizon
Guest
Lakotak, no I don’t really know what you are asking - it could be any number of things. Can you be more specific. By precisioning your own question you will no doubt half answer it for yourself as well.
Some parts can be answered easily enough.
- sexual attraction to the same sex is of course part and parcel of the tapestry of life in both humans and animals. Kinsey’s studies showed that we are sexually malleable up until mid-late teenage years when the jelly starts to set permaently (80% of persons could go either way with varying degrees of influence). Apparantly 10% of persons are born invariably heterosexual, another 10% invariably homosexual. More recent studies have shown that 10% of persons are “neuter” (no sexual attraction at all).
- Try and shave with Occham’s razor (the simplest explanation is correct 95% of the time). Little seems to be gained by throwing in the Devil. In fact “the devil” may be medieval shorthand for the not understood random/genetic caused hormonal proceses or “hardwired” brain structures or “learnt” structures science points to today. (Just as god (Thor/Zeus) used to explain lightning before Benjamen Franklin’s experiments).
- Just because something is “natural” (and at a descriptive level homosexual attraction clearly is) does not mean it is to be sought or acted upon.
D
Dakota_Roberts
Guest
Kinsey’s studies have no valid conclusion drawable from them because his data was garbage (garbage in, garbage out). Gays only make up 2-3% percent of males and lesbians only make up 1-2%.
That isn’t Ockham’s razor.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Dakota how about shedding light rather than just smoke by sourcing/referencing your personal opinion
.Anyhows, what point, apart from head-butting over trivial %s, are you attempting to make?
BTW what’s your issue with the Devil and Occham’s razor?
D
Dakota_Roberts
Guest
gallup.com/poll/158066/special-report-adults-identify-lgbt.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=morelink&utm_term=All%20Gallup%20HeadlinesDakota how about shedding light rather than just smoke by sourcing/referencing your personal opinion
Anyhows, what point, apart from head-butting over trivial %s, are you attempting to make?
BTW what’s your issue with the Devil and Occham’s razor?
^ shows LGBT population in US at 3.4%
drjudithreisman.com/archives/2011/04/the_truth_behin.html
^ talks a bit about just how screwed up the Kinsey report was
I don’t have an issue with Ockham’s Razor except when it isn’t actually Ockham’s Razor, also you don’t seem to understand Catholic theology much regarding the devil.
C
cmnhenry
Guest
First of all, I would like to state the fact that I am a practicing and devout Catholic. Secondly, I would like to add that I am not afraid to say that yes, I am a homosexual. Thirdly, I would like to say that a lot of what people have posted on this subject is appalling to me. My sexual orientation has been with me all of my life. The devil is not present in me, and never has been. Homosexuality can be quote on quote “defined” by heterosexual people, but, unless they are indeed “homosexual” they have no right to judge. I have had the same attraction all my life. And it is part of what makes me me! Am I a chaste and good Catholic? Yes, I like to think so. I am. I love God with my whole heart and whole soul, with all my body and all my strength. He is a good God. And I do believe God made me as I am today for a reason. Homosexuality is a uniqueness, and IS–>NOT and NEVER–>WILL–>BE a temptation. 
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StGandalf
Guest
I’m afraid that you are wrong on that point. While SOME people are in fact born with inclinations that go against the norm, the majority of people who are homosexual ARE tempted, and DO undergo temptation their entire life. All of us do! All of us do not however, under go homosexual temptation.Homosexuality is a uniqueness, and IS–>NOT and NEVER–>WILL–>BE a temptation.
I’m not going to say one way or the other where your attraction comes from, but I will say that your idea of homosexuality “NEVER” being a temptation is horribly wrong.
We are all sinners. Because of sin there is disease. Because of sin there is sickness. Because of sin there are psychological disorders, and physical disorders. Mental hospitals all over the world are filled with people who, through no fault of their own, were born was a disorder.
Many people who are homosexual also cannot help it (though the majority are simply tempted).
HOWEVER: Imagine if somebody (and this has happened on many occasions), was born with a severe psychological disorder where they habitually felt the need to kill people. They can’t help it, they were born that way, and yet the “need” to fulfil their “sickness” remains. BUT, murder is a sin. Because they were born that way, should we allow them to practice their horribly sinful practices? Absolutely NOT!
The Church is clear on their teaching of homosexuality, that is, that it is wrong, whether you are tempted or not. Most homosexuals are tempted, but there are some who are sadly born with a same-sex attraction. They simply need to learn, as the person I quoted above has, to control their temptations. And if they can learn to control them, I believe God will bless them very much, in the life to come.
C
cmnhenry
Guest
I respect your opinion, but (with all due respect) it is truly a part of who God made a person to be. There are however, homosexual TEMPTATIONS, (e.g. The temptation to look at homosexual pornography or the temptation to have homosexual relations) which indeed are wrong and close the possibility of life, but HOMOSEXUALITY in itself is indeed a part of who a person is. Everyone is different and God in his infinite wisdom and love has made different individuals.
C
cmnhenry
Guest
And just an F.Y.I. Holy Mother Church teaches in The Catechism of The Catholic Church that HOMOSEXUALITY ITSELF IS NOT A SIN, but rather TO ACT UPON IT is a sin.
C
cmnhenry
Guest
]Catechism of The Roman Catholic Church:
#2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
#2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
#2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]
#2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
#2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
#2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]
S
StGandalf
Guest
I never said that homosexuality was a sin. I simply said that the Church does indeed deem sinful those who fall into temptation and commit homosexual acts. The few people that are born with homosexual tendencies are themselves just as sinful as every other human being, but are only committing a sin if they actually commit homosexual acts.
In my previous post, I was simply discussing the nature of homosexuality - not the moral or sinful consequences.
In my previous post, I was simply discussing the nature of homosexuality - not the moral or sinful consequences.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Cheers, I am not hung up on the %.If you read the link closely you will see it is at least 3.4% because it only measures those consciously/publicly aware of their orientation. Therefore the real % will be significantly higher.
You haven’t told us why you feel this point is worth head-butting over?
Yes his results were controversial and his amoral personal life is well known and no secret. However argumentum ad hominum arguments aren’t enough to invalidate research.
If you can provide a more direct professional study/source which shows his methods and data collection (“rubbish in” as you put it) is seriously deficient I think that would be more convincing for readers.
DK you might be a really clever guy - yet it will only ever be in your own lunchbox if you simply re-state your contrary opinion without actually providing an explanation or a source to take this beyond blind faith in your personal wisdom.
Re your view of the devil - hmmmn very circular reasoning methinks. It seems to go like this:
DK really knows his Catholic Theology.
BH disagrees with DK
Therefore BH is a theological dumbo.
You know nothing about me.
So I really wish you would drop the “I am so clever I don’t need to explain my opinions and people need to beg me for explanations” act and just engage candidly.
I
Itzpapalotl
Guest
Religiously affected people have been trying to discredit Kinsy’s research for along time. Sadly for them not a single major psychological and medical association support them. Secular that is. We are not talking here about NARTH and such like. =)
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