Is Homosexuality Genetic?

[Werner]

rlg94086:

Werner,

You skipped a few parts of the canon:

The posts here have been about the nature of the sin itself, not about the sinners. If someone is struggling with this “grave depravity”, we certainly want to help them as loving Christians. We are not called to accept or approve their lifestyle. On the contrary, we are to do this “under no circumstances”.

God Bless,

Robert.

I didn’t skip anything of interest as i wasn’t arguing about the sinfulness of homosexuality here but rather about how violating, disrespectful and offensive many posters here deal with homosexuals.

Don’t come with “we love the sinners, we ony hate the sin”

People who say homosexuels are like cleptomaniacs or notorical lyers, who say that homosexuals choose their “cross” (as the Catechism calls it), who say homosexuals are most likely pederasts, who say homosexuals are “better killers” than heterosexuals, and who say that homosexuals are irrational and must be kept away from all offices of responsibility where clarity of thought and emotional stability are required don’t talk about a sin, they talk about their brothers and sisters in Christ

And all those pharisees are crucifying Christ again with every post like that.

Yes, homosexuals may be sinners, but you people here are like the pharisee who prayed “thank you Lord that i’m not like the other people”. You will be given what you deserve some day if you don’t change your attitude.

Werner

 

[fix]

Clyde-91:

Actually, I do disagree with you here. Most think that acting out ‘inclinations’ can be harmful. Lets say I have an inclination to harm myself, or others. It would definately be considered pathological-- needing treatment. I think the difference comes in when you’re talking about WHICH inclinations are considered pathological.

When I said acting out I meant in a sexual way. I agree with your other arguments in a general sense. I will not quibble over details. I must say that psychology, and related fields, have had a tremendous impact on our culture and not always for the better. While I can see that liberalization has crept into every area, fields like yours and medicine have altered the way we think about morality, the way we vote, the opinions we hold and in some cases what truth means.

Can one pick up a paper or watch TV and not think, for example, that rejecting the gay agenda is intolerant? Where do you think these views stem from? Surley, psychiatry and psychology are at the heart of much of it? The concept of sin, and free will, have been abandoned in favor of a biological basis or psychological basis for almost all behavior. Every single personality quirk or behavior has a diagnosis, except for SSA.

 

[fix]

Werner:

I didn’t skip anything of interest as i wasn’t arguing about the sinfulness of homosexuality here but rather about how violating, disrespectful and offensive many posters here deal with homosexuals.

Don’t come with “we love the sinners, we ony hate the sin”

People who say homosexuels are like cleptomaniacs or notorical lyers, who say that homosexuals choose their “cross” (as the Catechism calls it), who say homosexuals are most likely pederasts, who say homosexuals are “better killers” than heterosexuals, and who say that homosexuals are irrational and must be kept away from all offices of responsibility where clarity of thought and emotional stability are required don’t talk about a sin, they talk about their brothers and sisters in Christ

And all those pharisees are crucifying Christ again with every post like that.

Yes, homosexuals may be sinners, but you people here are like the pharisee who prayed “thank you Lord that i’m not like the other people”. You will be given what you deserve some day if you don’t change your attitude.

Werner

Friend, if ever I read a Pharisee-like post, it is yours. You judge others for judging.

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

john doran:

i’m not sure why it matters…

i mean, it seems to me that the tacit assumption being made by those arguing for its biological basis is that if homosexuality is in fact genetic, then that’s somehow evidence for the falsehood of (some aspect of) catholic moral doctrine.

and if that’s the motivation, then focusing on the issue just makes it seem like there’s actually something impotant riding on it. and there isn’t.

John Doran:

“i’m not sure why it matters…”

This is somewhat hard to read. It is matters tremendously, much the same, that it matters that we help our brothers and sisters who are in Mortal by their action, namely Active homsexuality! It is not merely enough to treat the symptoms, as it were, but rahter It is vital that we cure the root of the problem, “The axe lies at the root of the tree…” we need to find were this problem originates.
My brother sadly to say is an active homosexual, and it kills me to know that he is commiting grave sin which he knows it is. To see some one say it doesn’t matter, or “I am not sure why this matters…” this hurts. My parents and i have been through hell, to try to bring this lost sheep back. Our consolation remains with the story of St. Monica and St. Augustine. IT DOES MATTERS GREATLY!!! Anyone who believes that thiis is not a problem and considers it of small importance, to them i say “Watch out!!!, the Devil has you right where he wants you!!”

 

[Lisa_N]

Clyde-91:

Actually, I do disagree with you here. Most think that acting out ‘inclinations’ can be harmful. Lets say I have an inclination to harm myself, or others. It would definately be considered pathological-- needing treatment. I think the difference comes in when you’re talking about WHICH inclinations are considered pathological.

So 'splain to me why homosexual sex is NOT pathological? IOW if a person is compelled to engage in self destructive behavior that is also associated with higher levels of depression, substance abuse and suicide, is that not something needing attention? I really do not think the APA did the world a good service in removing all of the official stigma with respect to homosexuality. There are so many associated problems and I have yet to hear a single BENEFIT from homosexual sex. It’s non-procrative, uses body parts in ways not intended by the God (or mother nature if you prefer) and results in much easier spread of STDs as well as other problems.

Say there is another self destructive behavior that is also legal–smoking, drinking alcohol to excess, for example. Would we have pride days and TV shows about such aberrant behavior? Would we be told that this is normal or the way a person was born? No.

I just can’t figure out why the homosexual activists think their brand of addiction deserves societal acclamation. Can you explain it from a professional perspective? Is there anything SPECIFICALLY good or beneficial about homosexual sex?

Lisa N

 

[catsrus]

Is there anything SPECIFICALLY good or beneficial about homosexual sex?

And that’s the crux of the entire discussion from MPOV. There is NOTHING good and NOTHING beneficial about this abominable behavior. Thanks, Lisa, for posing the entire interminable discussion in one concise question.
And in answer to the original question. No. Period.

 

[SHEMP]

Is it genetic for me to want to sleep with every good looking woman that walks by? Is it genetic for someone to want to have sex with a child? Is it genetic for a man to want to have sex with a man?

Fortunately it does not matter because God gave us a free will!!

Whether a predisposition is genetic or environmental we are judged by our actions!

 

[Joey1976]

I think it is genetic or homormonal or chemical imbalance or something like that. Look at the males that are homosexual. They are very femine and talk femine and have femine mannerisms. You can not tell me they are faking that. It seems like a hormonal imbalance or something. there is no way i could choose to be homosexual. Whether i thought it is wrong or not, I could never change and be attracted to a man. It is not me. I could never do that even if i wanted to and thought it wasn’t wrong. I am straight becuase that is the way i am, not becuase it is the right thing to do or because it says it in the Bible. I am attracted to women because that is the way i am. I didn’t choose to be attracted to them and not men. It just happened that way. I was born liking and being attracted to females. That is not to say i don’t think they can overcome it. I still think they can overcome it and change.

 

[Jadesfire20]

Check this out:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4215427.stm

Its NOT as simple as a “gay gene”!

 

[mlchance]

Clyde-91:

First, What it IS saying: 1) Homosexuality does not spring from errant socialization by parents of either sex during childhood or adolescence. There are many more poorly socialized kids who are NOT homosexual than are.

But there are psychiatrists and psychologists who say otherwise. Who say that the primary cause of homosexuality is family dysfunction, especially in formative years. I can reference studies if you’d like.

Clyde-91:

1. Homosexuality does not come from perverse sexual contact as a child or adolescent.

Again, I can reference studies to the contrary.

Clyde-91:

1. Looking at the brain structure/chemisty (post mortem) of homosexuals, there is a difference betwen a homosexual’s brain and a heterosexual’s brain (essentially different areas of the brain have more or less neural connections and some cellular tissue is slightly different) This does NOT mean they (the brains) are born that way. All of our brains look a bit different based on our life experiences and consistent behavior. Their brain structure/chemisty may appear different than a heterosexual because of frequent homosexual contact or thought patterns.

Such differences, as you note, don’t demonstrate anything. This is basically a non-claim.

Clyde-91:

Now, What they ARE saying: 1) Homosexuality has both a biological and a social aspect. They say this about almost everything (murder, obsessive compulsive disorder, aggresssion etc.)-- there is an interaction between the biological makeup of someone and their lifelong socialization.

Another non-claim. It says a lot, but doesn’t demonstrate anything.

Clyde-91:

1. Thus far, there is NO evidence of a homosexual gene per se. Although that does not negate the signficance of the differences in the brain chemistry/makeup.

The differences aren’t significant, and they’re also largely irrelevant. As you admitted above, such differences are entirely inconclusive.

Clyde-91:

1. It is no longer considered a Psychiatric Disorder (as described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual: the DSM- IV), because people can live “healthy, happy, productive” lives as homosexuals (please note that they obviously ignore the moral struggles and decay that these individuals face-- they only rate this on a purely societal level).

They don’t even rate that. One cannot be subjected to “moral struggles and decay” and live a “healthy, happy, productive” life. The staggeringly high rates of depression, drug and alcohol abuse, domestic violence, and sexually-transmitted diseases found among homosexuals belies claims to the contrary.

Homosexuality was removed from the DSM because of political pressure. It wasn’t removed based on a shred of new scientific evidence that contradicted data already available about homosexuality. Even the former president of the APA at the time of this decision has since admitted the decision was a mistake.

– Mark L. Chance.

Hope this helps and frees up any confusion.

 

[fix]

Can modern psychiatry be reconciled with the Christian faith?

closely related to psychology…

sffaith.com//ed/articles/1998/1098cz2.htm

 

[Clyde-91]

fix:

Can one pick up a paper or watch TV and not think, for example, that rejecting the gay agenda is intolerant? Where do you think these views stem from? Surley, psychiatry and psychology are at the heart of much of it?

The concept of sin, and free will, have been abandoned in favor of a biological basis or psychological basis for almost all behavior. Every single personality quirk or behavior has a diagnosis, except for SSA.

When I pick up the newspaper and turn on the TV I rarely see a Psychologist or Psychiatrist pushing anything. I see politicians, hollywood personalities etc. pushing the ‘agenda’ as you call it.

fix:

The concept of sin, and free will, have been abandoned in favor of a biological basis or psychological basis for almost all behavior. Every single personality quirk or behavior has a diagnosis, except for SSA.

That is a very extreme view held only by a very small minority of Psychologists and Lay-Psychologists (people who think themselves trained). Pick up any Psychology text or set of research and you will see a much more interactionist approach that looks at biological AND social roots to behavior. Now, I will agree with you that Psychology has stayed out of the realm of labeling behvior moral/immoral, sinful/not sinful, but that isn’t there place anyway. But, they do admit, that biological tendencies DO NOT predestine us for certain behaviors…that comes down to personal choice, and to your point- sin.

 

[Clyde-91]

Lisa N:

So 'splain to me why homosexual sex is NOT pathological? IOW if a person is compelled to engage in self destructive behavior that is also associated with higher levels of depression, substance abuse and suicide, is that not something needing attention?

What I meant by that statement was that there are homosexuals who live normal, happy lives (by societal standards, not my standards) so we wouldn’t drag them off the street to seek treatment. Certainly if a homosexual came to someone for therapy, they would receive the help they need! Think about it this way: Divorce is another social ill that comes with an extremely high rate of depression, suicide and livlihood ruin. Its not that both of these issues don’t need attention, but its the type of attention that the APA wants to give. They just aren’t willing to say that there is something inherently wrong with a homosexual person (not what I am saying, just what they think), I suppose they think it would be a moral judgment, which they cannot make.
Lisa N:

There are so many associated problems and I have yet to hear a single BENEFIT from homosexual sex. It’s non-procrative, uses body parts in ways not intended by the God (or mother nature if you prefer) and results in much easier spread of STDs as well as other problems.

I aggree with you, I see no benefit. I suppose you’d have to ask a homosexual what benefit they see. I suspect some form of giving and receiving love (although I’m sure you’d agree with me that they aren’t giving and receiving pure, true love).
Lisa N:

Would we be told that this is normal or the way a person was born? No.

No we wouldn’t thank goodness or we would be taking away ALL form of personal responsibility. Neither I or the Psychological community would say that about homosexuality either (at least not in my experiences). They might say there is a biological tendency (say, like there is for alcoholism), but that doesn’t MAKE someone act the way do…its a choice to be homosexually active (just as it is to take a drink).
Lisa N:

I just can’t figure out why the homosexual activists think their brand of addiction deserves societal acclamation. Can you explain it from a professional perspective? Is there anything SPECIFICALLY good or beneficial about homosexual sex?

I feel your pain. Coming from a completely moral, Catholic background it makes my wonder too. I suppose however, that gay activists don’t see their orientation as an addicition or something to be ashamed of-- I’m just supposing here, I don’t really know what they think about. Personally, I don’t see much good that comes out of ANY morally errant interpersonal relationships (homosexuals, sex outside of marriage, cohabitation etc.).

 

[Clyde-91]

mlchance:

But there are psychiatrists and psychologists who say otherwise. Who say that the primary cause of homosexuality is family dysfunction, especially in formative years. I can reference studies if you’d like.

I’d love some references. The only Psychologists/Psychiatrists that I know of are ones who’s theories have been greatly discounted and critcized over the years and are mainly studied in a historical context (Freud) or who truly never did any research in the area, but still expounded none the less (Piaget, Vygotsky).

mlchance:

One cannot be subjected to “moral struggles and decay” and live a “healthy, happy, productive” life. The staggeringly high rates of depression, drug and alcohol abuse, domestic violence, and sexually-transmitted diseases found among homosexuals belies claims to the contrary.

I don’t disagree with you, but I think the general public would. There are lots of social ails, unfortunately, that are destructive, both socially and psychologically, that people are not willing to admit and or seek treatment for.

 

[fix]

Clyde-91:

The concept of sin, and free will, have been abandoned in favor of a biological basis or psychological basis for almost all behavior. Every single personality quirk or behavior has a diagnosis, except for SSA.

I am not arguing psychologists are on air pushing a relativist agenda. I am arguing that the theories they support are embraced by our culture. For example, would most psycholgists think a same sex couple are stable? Would they give expert reasons why a committed “gay” relationship is stable? People see these things and their minds are shaped. No one wants to be thought of as unenlightened.

That is a very extreme view held only by a very small minority of Psychologists and Lay-Psychologists (people who think themselves trained). Pick up any Psychology text or set of research and you will see a much more interactionist approach that looks at biological AND social roots to behavior. Now, I will agree with you that Psychology has stayed out of the realm of labeling behvior moral/immoral, sinful/not sinful, but that isn’t there place anyway. But, they do admit, that biological tendencies DO NOT predestine us for certain behaviors…that comes down to personal choice, and to your point- sin.

If psychologists are not claiming some behaviors are pathological, like homosexual relations, then what benefit are they providing to the culture? If they are leading others to think pathologic behavior is not pathologic, then that would be problematic. If their criteria for determining pathology is faulty, then what benefit are they? I am not saying the entire field is without merit, only that many of the hot button issues shape our culture. They give witness in court cases that can allow homosexuals to adopt children. They give credibility to things like transgender surgery.

 

[Lisa_N]

Joey1976:

I think it is genetic or homormonal or chemical imbalance or something like that. Look at the males that are homosexual. They are very femine and talk femine and have femine mannerisms. You can not tell me they are faking that. It seems like a hormonal imbalance or something. there is no way i could choose to be homosexual. Whether i thought it is wrong or not, I could never change and be attracted to a man. It is not me. I could never do that even if i wanted to and thought it wasn’t wrong. I am straight becuase that is the way i am, not becuase it is the right thing to do or because it says it in the Bible. I am attracted to women because that is the way i am. I didn’t choose to be attracted to them and not men. It just happened that way. I was born liking and being attracted to females. That is not to say i don’t think they can overcome it. I still think they can overcome it and change.

Joey if it were a simple hormone imbalance it would probably have been more effectively treated. I have heard that among lesbians that their testosterone levels are higher than normal but that is something that could be remedied.

As to effete males, to a great extent this is learned behavior. I have a homosexual friend who is COMPLETELY different if he is in a heterosexual group vis a vis when he’s around a group of homosexuals. They ‘put on’ quite a bit and I think it’s to get attention like a small child who makes faces. I do agree that some youngsters seem effete but again, no proof this is hardwired. A lot of childhood behavior has nothing to do with sex roles in adulthood. How many ‘tomboys’ for example grow up to be lesbians? I was a total tomboy but not because it was a sexual orientation. At age 8 I had no concept of sex. What I did understand was boys games and activities were more fun for me than girls games and activities. I’d much rather be outside climbing a tree or building a fort than sitting in the house playing dolls. I NEVER liked dolls. Never. But I also never had the desire to have a sexual relationship with a female. NEVER.

Some of the more effete boys are the product of worried or overprotective parents that don’t understand that very often boys do roughhouse, fall down, play with guns, etc. However if a boy is punished or admonished for this behavior, he can easily learn that mom’s approval is easier if he doesn’t engage in rough and tumble behavior.

Quite honestly I doubt if you were BORN liking females. As small kids while I think we realize the opposite sex has different plumbing, we really don’t understand the differences between the sexes as to their role in life. Most young boys and young girls also go through stages where they consider kids of the opposite sex something from another planet. It’s in the developmental stages where you start to realize that girls aren’t so bad after all. I think these SSA inclinations tend to develop during adolescence and that is why I really dislike the ‘embrace who you are’ aspect of the homosexual agenda. Propagandizing confused, hormonal, emotional kids to think that it’s ‘normal’ to be attracted to the same sex is hardly going to discourage this behavior. Like other self destructive inclinations, SSA should be recognized and addressed. Not all can be treated but I do think we should certainly not ENCOURAGE or EMBRACE this potentially pathological behavior.

Lisa N

 

[Lisa_N]

Clyde-91:

What I meant by that statement was that there are homosexuals who live normal, happy lives (by societal standards, not my standards) so we wouldn’t drag them off the street to seek treatment. Certainly if a homosexual came to someone for therapy, they would receive the help they need! Think about it this way: Divorce is another social ill that comes with an extremely high rate of depression, suicide and livlihood ruin. Its not that both of these issues don’t need attention, but its the type of attention that the APA wants to give. They just aren’t willing to say that there is something inherently wrong with a homosexual person (not what I am saying, just what they think), I suppose they think it would be a moral judgment, which they cannot make.

Clyde thank you for weighing in here. While I think some of us may disagree with some of your comments, I thank you for the rational reasonable approach. I understand you have a Catholic perspective which may make you feel like a stranger in a strange land amongst the more secular psychologists.

A couple of comments. How can psychologists consider active homosexuals living a normal life? Further is one’s happiness or sense of self satisfaction something that is the highest and best achievment from society’s standpoint? Does society want us to be ‘happy’ as the definition of normal?

I don’t see the analogy with divorce. Divorce is an action. Homosexuality is seen as a state of being. So to me it is much more like an addiction. Consider the parallels: Self destructive behavior (although often people rationalize by saying it’s only hurting THEM) that is based on a biological urge with a specific subculture of mutually affirming folks who also want to rationalize the behavior and protect it for their own self gratification. The same description can cover both homosexuality and drug addiction.

Clyde-91:

I aggree with you, I see no benefit. I suppose you’d have to ask a homosexual what benefit they see. I suspect some form of giving and receiving love (although I’m sure you’d agree with me that they aren’t giving and receiving pure, true love). .

It isn’t just that. The ULTIMATE irony about homosexuals ‘giving and receiving love’ is that they do NOT view sex as equivalent to love even though the sex is what defines this relationship. I had a long chat with a homosexual psychiatrist (MD) whose practice was…ta da…mostly homosexual males who were depressed, unhappy, drug addicted and sometimes even suicidal. He explained that to male homosexuals sex is sex. It is a pleasureable experience and has nothing to do with who shares your house. He and his partner had been together for decades, owned substantial property together and ran a business together. They also thought monogamy was pointless. Sex because it cannot be procreative is simply for fun and self gratification. If you want to have fun, have sex. If you want a partner who will pay his share of the mortgage, well that’s a completely different story.

Lisa N

 

[Brendan]

Here is an interesting question:

If homosexuality is genetic and a vaccine reatment was available, should a Universal Health Care system provide it?

It’s interesting to hear the comments on that from liberals.

And for the really Left Liberals… there is this one.

If there was an in-utero test for homosexuality, could a mother abort a child if it was positive?

It’s like a paradigm shift without a clutch, their heads explode

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

EVERYBODY!!! If you have questions, and it seems as if you do. YOU ALL NEED TO SEE THIS heres is an informative, concise, viewpoint this explains what we as Catholics are supposed believe about this subject!!! this should clear it up completely!!!

couragerc.net/

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

EVERYBODY!!! If you have questions, and it seems as if you do. YOU ALL NEED TO SEE THIS heres is an informative, concise, viewpoint this explains what we as Catholics are supposed believe about this subject!!! this should clear it up completely!!!

couragerc.net/

<— go to this site!!