Is homosexuality just emptiness?

[at9009]

I have a new theory on homosexuality (specifically male homosexuality).

I believe people for sure are gay in that they are highly inclined toward liking other men. But are they born that way? I doubt it.

It seems a lot of gay men have had sort of broken or isolated childhoods and seem to turn to the gay scene as an easy form of love of acceptance and even validation which they haven’t really had before.

I also sort of object to the way the gay lifestyle is portayed in the media. Mostly the idea that they are happy and festive people, because the more I see of it (and based off several gay friends I have) it just strikes me as something to fill a massive hole in their lives/souls.

could this be true?

Oh joy, yet another thread of arm chair psychology about gay people. This is sooooo helpful /s.

Point 1: Correlation does not equal causation. There are plenty of people who are from broken childhoods who aren’t gay just as there are gay people who had normal childhoods.

Point 2: The whole date over whether it born this way is completely irrelevant to Catholic teaching and morality. Teaching is that it is also against teaching to engage in same sexual actions regardless of its etiology.

Point 3: We accept the fall has affected everything in our world and people can be born with all kinds of inherited disordered desires yet… for some reason this Particular disordered desires MUST be only from social causes for every single person who has same sex attraction.

Point 4: This type of discussion wants again leads to me to the feeling that basically this forum more or less views gay/ssa people has nothing more than a problem to solve. It doesn’t feel like it is actually that interested in supporting a gay person in living in adherence with Catholic teaching. Instead let’s make sure they know they should feel bad for having these attractions in their first place, let’s make assumptions about their childhood because you apparently know the causes, and make sure they never ever actually be open and talk about their sexuality less they ‘shove it in your faces.’ It’s SOOO much better when they didn’t talk about it and we can go back to ignoring they don’t really exist.

Alternative far helpful discussions here:

spiritualfriendship.org/2016/07/11/ministry-that-helps-part-1/
spiritualfriendship.org/2016/07/12/ministry-that-helps-part-2/

spiritualfriendship.org/2015/09/20/spiritual-friendship-and-courage-on-the-need-for-variety-in-ministry/

It’s a wonder why a Catholic gay/ssa person might find these forums more discouraging and less than helpful. Can’t possible imagine why.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Oh joy, yet another thread of arm chair psychology about gay people. This is sooooo helpful /s.

Point 1: Correlation does not equal causation. There are plenty of people who are from broken childhoods who aren’t gay just as there are gay people who had normal childhoods.

Point 2: The whole date over whether it born this way is completely irrelevant to Catholic teaching and morality. Teaching is that it is also against teaching to engage in same sexual actions regardless of its etiology.

Point 3: We accept the fall has affected everything in our world and people can be born with all kinds of inherited disordered desires yet… for some reason this Particular disordered desires MUST be only from social causes for every single person who has same sex attraction.

Point 4: This type of discussion wants again leads to me to the feeling that basically this forum more or less views gay/ssa people has nothing more than a problem to solve. It doesn’t feel like it is actually that interested in supporting a gay person in living in adherence with Catholic teaching. Instead let’s make sure they know they should feel bad for having these attractions in their first place, let’s make assumptions about their childhood because you apparently know the causes, and make sure they never ever actually be open and talk about their sexuality less they ‘shove it in your faces.’ It’s SOOO much better when they didn’t talk about it and we can go back to ignoring they don’t really exist.

Alternative far helpful discussions here:

spiritualfriendship.org/2016/07/11/ministry-that-helps-part-1/
spiritualfriendship.org/2016/07/12/ministry-that-helps-part-2/

spiritualfriendship.org/2015/09/20/spiritual-friendship-and-courage-on-the-need-for-variety-in-ministry/

It’s a wonder why a Catholic gay/ssa person might find these forums more discouraging and less than helpful. Can’t possible imagine why.

Those links were very helpful. I think anyone who is concerned with the issue of homosexuality should read those first two.

 

[inocente]

I think I explained myself clearly. Observation of our bodies leads to obvious conclusions about sexual intercourse. Gametes are included in male ejaculate. Is this not suggestive of anything? Boy + Boy or Boy + Girl - which one of these seems consistent with the presence of gametes in ejaculate?

Observation is that 96 out of every 100 men are straight. Their gametes end up in all manner of places. But apparently that’s fine, that’s men being perfectly normal, the lovable rascals.

But horror of horrors, the other 4 out of every 100 might be doing something similar! In a loving relationship!! In the privacy of their own homes!!!

Double standards. It wouldn’t matter except that homosexuals get bullied.

Apparently two thirds of men, including Christians, look at porn. Is being straight just emptiness?

 

[Rau]

But it is quite relevant. You seem to think that it’s unatural for someone to have sex when it is plainly obvious that they can’t produce children.

Now either the sex I have is unatural or your argument is invalid.

I’ll go with Option 2.

No Bradski, it’s a distraction from the point. Men produce gametes in the testes and our plumbing is such that these are emitted in ejaculate. (Individuals may alter their bodies to interfere with this, and a very few suffer a medical condition that may impair this).

My observation is that this characteristic of men suggests that the venue for ejaculation is not another man. I also observe that many will close their eyes and say they don’t see this. I can only speculate as to why.

 

[Rau]

Observation is that 96 out of every 100 men are straight. Their gametes end up in all manner of places. But apparently that’s fine, that’s men being perfectly normal, the lovable rascals.

But horror of horrors, the other 4 out of every 100 might be doing something similar! In a loving relationship!! In the privacy of their own homes!!!

Double standards. It wouldn’t matter except that homosexuals get bullied…

Straw man! Whose double standard is this? Not mine - I haven’t advocated for any of the other behaviors you list.

And btw, the gametes of the “other 4” also probably" end up in all manner of places too".

My point stands.

 

[Bradski]

My observation is that this characteristic of men suggests that the venue for ejaculation is not another man.

It’s also quite a few other places that won’t result in the propogation of the species.

But I see no posts about that. And whenever homosexuality is discussed, it’s always male homosexulaity. Without fail. In fact I cannot recall any oosts about lesbians (which sounds a quaint term these days).

I guess it’s all about the mechanics of the sexual act.

 

[Rau]

It’s also quite a few other places that won’t result in the propogation of the species. But I see no posts about that.

No…not a single thread on CAF about masturbation or other sexual acts not open to life. Not a One!

And whenever homosexuality is discussed, it’s always male homosexulaity. Without fail. In fact I cannot recall any oosts about lesbians (which sounds a quaint term these days).

Not true. But it is the case that the nature of the male sexual response reveals something about the evident partner for a man.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I have a new theory on homosexuality (specifically male homosexuality).

I believe people for sure are gay in that they are highly inclined toward liking other men. But are they born that way? I doubt it.

It seems a lot of gay men have had sort of broken or isolated childhoods and seem to turn to the gay scene as an easy form of love of acceptance and even validation which they haven’t really had before.

I also sort of object to the way the gay lifestyle is portayed in the media. Mostly the idea that they are happy and festive people, because the more I see of it (and based off several gay friends I have) it just strikes me as something to fill a massive hole in their lives/souls.

could this be true?

There is no conclusive scientific evidence that points to the cause of homosexuality. However, I will say that I don’t think all homosexuals are gay because of “emptiness”. The cause of homosexuality may vary from person-to-person and there may be multiple factors that lead to it. I don’t even believe that homosexuality, or any sexual orientation, is necessarily formed or fixed by the time of adolescence. Research like that from Dr. Lisa Diamond shows that sexual orientation can be ‘fluid’, that is it can shift throughout a person’s lifetime. Keep in mind that shift does not necessarily mean choice, but change can still occur nonetheless.

 

[inocente]

Straw man! Whose double standard is this? Not mine - I haven’t advocated for any of the other behaviors you list.

And btw, the gametes of the “other 4” also probably" end up in all manner of places too".

My point stands.

Your argument totally ignores the behavior of 96% of men and 100% of women. That’s a double standard.

And it reduces the human dignity of those 2% of persons alone to bodily fluids. That’s a double standard.

And they are law abiding in the privacy of their own home. Why is that your business? What has that got to do with you? That’s a double standard.

 

[Rau]

Your argument totally ignores the behavior of 96% of men and 100% of women. That’s a double standard.

And it reduces the human dignity of those 2% of persons alone to bodily fluids. That’s a double standard.

And they are law abiding in the privacy of their own home. Why is that your business? What has that got to do with you? That’s a double standard.

I’m sorry, but all of these issues have NOTHING to do with the observation that male ejaculate delivers gametes. Surely this makes apparent that the natural sexual partner for man is woman. And while it says nothing about who a person may love, note that Love does not obligate a sexual relationship.

 

[inocente]

I’m sorry, but all of these issues have NOTHING to do with the observation that male ejaculate delivers gametes. Surely this makes apparent that the natural sexual partner for man is woman. And while it says nothing about who a person may love, note that Love does not obligate a sexual relationship.

Let’s get this straight. Your argument then is about gametes. So it makes no mention of women because their bodily fluids stay put. And makes no mention of 96% of men because when they engage in hetero oral and anal sex, your theory is that the partner is natural, whatever the destination of their bodily fluids. But what the other 2% may or may do with their bodily fluids in private is, you say, unnatural. And this ought to concern me, this tiny minority of law abiding consenting adults and what they may or may not do with their gametes.

Sorry. It doesn’t. Not even a little bit.

 

[fisherman_carl]

I have a new theory on homosexuality (specifically male homosexuality).

I believe people for sure are gay in that they are highly inclined toward liking other men. But are they born that way? I doubt it.

It seems a lot of gay men have had sort of broken or isolated childhoods and seem to turn to the gay scene as an easy form of love of acceptance and even validation which they haven’t really had before.

I also sort of object to the way the gay lifestyle is portayed in the media. Mostly the idea that they are happy and festive people, because the more I see of it (and based off several gay friends I have) it just strikes me as something to fill a massive hole in their lives/souls.

could this be true?

I heard a psychologist on CA say one time that one reason could be a distant father figure. But there are probably many factors that could contribute. I am not sure if homo sexuality is an easy form of love and acceptance. It seems like they are sometimes subject to much hate and criticism from others. But, anyways here is an article on the topic.

josephnicolosi.com/fathers-of-male-homosexuals/

 

[Rau]

Let’s get this straight. Your argument then is about gametes. So it makes no mention of women because their bodily fluids stay put. And makes no mention of 96% of men because when they engage in hetero oral and anal sex, your theory is that the partner is natural, whatever the destination of their bodily fluids. But what the other 2% may or may do with their bodily fluids in private is, you say, unnatural. And this ought to concern me, this tiny minority of law abiding consenting adults and what they may or may not do with their gametes.

Sorry. It doesn’t. Not even a little bit.

You may draw whatever conclusions you wish from the behaviours you observe - I’ve not addressed those behaviours - you raised them.

Let me ask you something - does the presence of male gametes in ejaculate suggest to you anything about the natural sexual partner for men? Perhaps you consider the presence of those unique cells in the male ejaculate as some irrelevance?

 

[Peter_J]

Point 4: This type of discussion wants again leads to me to the feeling that basically this forum more or less views gay/ssa people has nothing more than a problem to solve. It doesn’t feel like it is actually that interested in supporting a gay person in living in adherence with Catholic teaching. Instead let’s make sure they know they should feel bad for having these attractions in their first place, let’s make assumptions about their childhood because you apparently know the causes, and make sure they never ever actually be open and talk about their sexuality less they ‘shove it in your faces.’ It’s SOOO much better when they didn’t talk about it and we can go back to ignoring they don’t really exist.

I’m curious to start a poll “Do you have to treat homosexual persons like laboratory experiments in order to be a conservative?” because I get the feeling that some people here think so.

 

[at9009]

I’m curious to start a poll “Do you have to treat homosexual persons like laboratory experiments in order to be a conservative?” because I get the feeling that some people here think so.

I think it’s more along the lines of trying to help but not really talking to same sex attracted people about how to best help them live within a Catholic sexual ethic.

I’ve shared this before I think, but I feel this would be helpful for people who are looking to help
spiritualfriendship.org/2016/07/11/ministry-that-helps-part-1/
spiritualfriendship.org/2016/07/12/ministry-that-helps-part-2/

 

[prophetofgod]

I have a new theory on homosexuality (specifically male homosexuality).

I believe people for sure are gay in that they are highly inclined toward liking other men. But are they born that way? I doubt it.

It seems a lot of gay men have had sort of broken or isolated childhoods and seem to turn to the gay scene as an easy form of love of acceptance and even validation which they haven’t really had before.

I also sort of object to the way the gay lifestyle is portayed in the media. Mostly the idea that they are happy and festive people, because the more I see of it (and based off several gay friends I have) it just strikes me as something to fill a massive hole in their lives/souls.

could this be true?

Not when your *** is filled with another dude’s cum.

 

[inocente]

You may draw whatever conclusions you wish from the behaviours you observe - I’ve not addressed those behaviours - you raised them.

Let me ask you something - does the presence of male gametes in ejaculate suggest to you anything about the natural sexual partner for men? Perhaps you consider the presence of those unique cells in the male ejaculate as some irrelevance?

A man produces 525,000,000,000 sperm cells in his life. On average only about 2 get fertilized. The rest die. They die wherever they end up.

For every gay man there are 24 straight men, whose gametes die in all kinds of “unnatural” places due to various sexual practices.

In any event there cannot possibly be any “unnatural” destinations anyway, as we evolved, and evolution is blind, it has no intentionality.

For those reasons, your argument appears irrational. But the least palatable aspect to me is that it reduces morality to biology, not for most but only for the 2% who are gay men, where it talks of bodily fluids instead of human dignity.

Out of all the many arguments against minorities I’ve seen, let’s just say that’s not exactly in the top ten. And it’s off-topic so rather than divert the thread any longer, I’ll leave it there .

 

[Lea101]

I have a new theory on homosexuality (specifically male homosexuality).

I believe people for sure are gay in that they are highly inclined toward liking other men. But are they born that way? I doubt it.

It seems a lot of gay men have had sort of broken or isolated childhoods and seem to turn to the gay scene as an easy form of love of acceptance and even validation which they haven’t really had before.

I also sort of object to the way the gay lifestyle is portayed in the media. Mostly the idea that they are happy and festive people, because the more I see of it (and based off several gay friends I have) it just strikes me as something to fill a massive hole in their lives/souls.

could this be true?

Yes and no.

There are gay people with broken pasts, and those with perfectly happy childhoods. We do not know much about homosexuality, so making assumptions can come across as ignorant and hurtful to some

 

[Rau]

…For those reasons, your argument appears irrational. But the least palatable aspect to me is that it reduces morality to biology, not for most but only for the 2% who are gay men, where it talks of bodily fluids instead of human dignity.

Out of all the many arguments against minorities I’ve seen, let’s just say that’s not exactly in the top ten. And it’s off-topic so rather than divert the thread any longer, I’ll leave it there .

I note you wish to “leave it there” without answering the question I put to you.

And I reject everything you say in your last post. It is either irrelevant to the point I’ve made, or simply wrong. The nature of the body is itself evidence for the appropriate sexual partner for man. This simple observation is in keeping with human dignity and morality - for all.

 

[Peter_J]

I think it’s more along the lines of trying to help but not really talking to same sex attracted people about how to best help them live within a Catholic sexual ethic.

I would hope so, but from my experience it seems like some – not all, but some – posters speak of homosexual persons as though they were subjects to perform experiments on.