Is Immigration a bad thing?

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JamesD:
They are entering illegally because they cannot get in legally. Not only would it be good to make our border more secure it would be equally good to reform the agencies responsible so that they can deal with the numbers of guest workers and immigrants we are talking about. These things have to be done together.
I think that what the Bush administration has done is a good start.
Our problem is that there are powerfull influences in both parties that do not want to see these reforms.
Also, a broken system generates additional problems as people and organization try to work both with it and around it because it cannot do what it should. That is why a don’t ask don’t tell policy of sorts exists between many public organizations and INS.
I understand that a very high percentage of illegal alliens (most?) dont want to immigrate. They just need to provide for their families.
I can tell you that if I was in that situation I would cross illegaly to provide for my family. We should respect them for that and not label them criminals.
Actually, I believe neither party wants to take action on this problem, because they don’t want to lose the hispanic voting block. It has been recommended that we hire 2,000 more border guards, but the politicians have said we can’t afford it. We have money for everything else, but our own security. You said thast most illegal immigrants don’t want to stay here. Then why has it been estimated that we have 8 million illegals in this country right now? Yes, the system is broken, and as far as having any protection of our borders, there isn’t any. Maybe someday, Washington will wake up and realize we have a big problem.
 
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davy39:
Actually, I believe neither party wants to take action on this problem, because they don’t want to lose the hispanic voting block. It has been recommended that we hire 2,000 more border guards, but the politicians have said we can’t afford it. We have money for everything else, but our own security. You said thast most illegal immigrants don’t want to stay here. Then why has it been estimated that we have 8 million illegals in this country right now? Yes, the system is broken, and as far as having any protection of our borders, there isn’t any. Maybe someday, Washington will wake up and realize we have a big problem.
I wonder how the hispanic vote would respond to a fixed system that fairly treats those wanting to enter enter when jobs are available to them and they wont have to worry so much about being taken advantage of by employers or criminals (some of whom are illegal alliens). I think they would respond favorably.
Why are there so many illegal alliens in the US? It doesn’t mean that they want to immigrate. If the unemployment rate goes from 5% to 6% in the US, thats almost 2 million people. Do you think those 2 million want to stay unemployed? How many people move to florida or Texas for the winter? Yet they want to go back north in spring. The large number doesn’t really indicate their intentions.

I hope you are right and maybe someday the system will be fixed. Both in keeping out those that would pose a threat and being able to process and document the large numbers of immigrants and guest workers that we also want (need?).

Peace
Jim
 
Hispanics (and people from other countries/ethnic groups) who have come here legally RESENT those who have cheated and lied their way into the country. We have a lot of hispanics here due to the farming industry. Some legal, many not. The legals are in effect punished because they go through the hoops and the expense to get here under the laws. Some incentive when we ignore the flagrant lawbreaking. Why bother?

I don’t know enough about Pres Bush’s guest worker program but I like the CONCEPT. I think that it should be easy for people to come here IF they have documentation, and IF they have jobs when they arrive. I know it’s daunting to go through the current legal hoops for permanent residency but many simply come for seasonal work.

Also frankly I am appalled that some in society want to maintain a permanent underclass of people who will have NO opportunity to move up in the world. We use the illegals just as they use us. Both sides of this equation are disgusting IMO. People act like no one got their lawn mowed before the huge influx of illegals from Mexico.

A few simple things would help prevent the influx of illegals, particularly those who are here selling drugs which sadly has become an increasing population. One, SEVERE employer sanctions. It used to be that employers were afraid to hire illegals because of the penalties. Now it’s wink and nod. Two, no driver’s license unless you are here legally. Our state will give a license to anyone who breathes and can pay a fee. They don’t even have to speak/read English. Three, bill Mexico for the cost of its citizens who are ENCOURAGED to come here due to the corrupt government in their own country. Four, no one should starve but people should not be here permanently on food stamps, medicaid, and other programs. Feed 'em and send 'em home. If they come back, feed 'em and send 'em home.

Lisa N
 
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JamesD:
I wonder how the hispanic vote would respond to a fixed system that fairly treats those wanting to enter enter when jobs are available to them and they wont have to worry so much about being taken advantage of by employers or criminals (some of whom are illegal alliens). I think they would respond favorably.
Why are there so many illegal alliens in the US? It doesn’t mean that they want to immigrate. If the unemployment rate goes from 5% to 6% in the US, thats almost 2 million people. Do you think those 2 million want to stay unemployed? How many people move to florida or Texas for the winter? Yet they want to go back north in spring. The large number doesn’t really indicate their intentions.

I hope you are right and maybe someday the system will be fixed. Both in keeping out those that would pose a threat and being able to process and document the large numbers of immigrants and guest workers that we also want (need?).

Peace
Jim
Believe it or not, I voted for Pres. Bush in hopes that he could do something to help this mess we are in. I am not so radical to think that we can round up 8 million people and run them out of the country. But we have a right to know who they are and what they are doing here. I don’t know if Bushs’ guest worker program is the answer, but at least it’s something. I guess my point is that we cannot keep on doing what we have been doing. It will lead to nothing but trouble for the country. Yes, we do need guest workers for the fact that they will work on jobs that most americans don’t want. But we will have to watch so they won’t be taken advantage of by greedy employers, and be treated like human beings. I wish I had the answer to all this, but I don’t. It’s been good discussing this with you, and have a good day. It’s about time for Mass so I must close. God bless, and pray for a solution to all of this.
 
Exporter said:
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Er,ah, my ancestors came befor 1800. There was no immigration service then.

But the immigrants who came after 1844 had to go by the rules. I would point out that the great influx of immigrants who came from 1870 until 1920 were all coming here under a quota. They had to pass a medical exam too. The Italians, Germans, Greeks, French and Scotish were able to blend into the American Culture in a few years.

We are talking about unskilled, uneducated and often carriers of tuberculosis ILLEGALY entering the U.S… They are Illegal Immigrants. Where I live 1/2 the prisoners in the County Jail are Illegals. Get ready for a shock - our County spends over 2 million per month on medical services for Illegals. Now think, 14 million a year for a County is outrageous - this is because of a Federal Law. Scotty - Beam me up!

I cannot understand why the President doesn’t face up to the tremendous problems we have on the Border. I live 8 miles from the Mexican Border and the criminal acts we have here is 80% by illegals. They just don’t care, because nothing happens to them if the crimes are small, like stealing from homes or back yards. The ones coming from Mexico are low life, with their hands out for welfare.

I am ashamed to be reading this is this Forum. I am just so embarassed for you. I think that you need to study this issue a little bit more. I work as an interpreter where I work for many many years. I have been to the slums of Mexico and have seen how some of these people live. These people come here to work and make money to SURVIVE!! Unfortunately they do it illegally. Of course there are some bad ones. And it seems to me that you have only met the bad ones.

And the work that they do? I dont think that anyone in this forum would do that kind of work. Working the fields with a shovel and hoe in extreme heat. Living in one bedroom shacks. Not a glamorous life, but they are used to it as this is how they lived in Mexico. The only difference is that they have money in their pockets to buy food.
 
Immigration will exist as long as we have a free country. I think people should be here legally. I think the Mexican Americans are wonderful people, but I acknowledge that legal immigration is the only fair way. Guest worker programs are necessary for workers that want to come for shorter times while they apply for legal immigration status.

WE would all be hypocrites to be unaccepting of legal immigration. None of us would be here- or most of us. I suppose there are some Native Americans amongst our posters.

I work with many Mexican Americans and they are wonderful workers and actually all speak very good English. We need to be careful about stereotypes.
 
Immigration isnt abad thing, esp if theyare Catholics. The problems is 2-fold:
  1. Too many Hispanics appear to be only nominal Catholics, soon to be devoured by Fundamentalists. At my parents church, they set up a taco stand obstensibly for after mass get togethers. IN reality, many during mass come and go, eating at the stand during mass and before Euchrist.
  2. Illegal immigration is— ILLEGAL. Patrick Henry once stated that America was aland of laws, not men (whims). Illegal immigration has put a break strain on America’s welfare state (unConstitutional anyway). They contribute less thn they take. Christian mercy would indicate helping hte sick and dying, it does not mean break the law and put up a flag and sign to invite lawbreaking.
 
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camby:
Immigration isnt abad thing, esp if theyare Catholics. The problems is 2-fold:
  1. Too many Hispanics appear to be only nominal Catholics, soon to be devoured by Fundamentalists. At my parents church, they set up a taco stand obstensibly for after mass get togethers. IN reality, many during mass come and go, eating at the stand during mass and before Euchrist.
Your absolutely right. We must make sure that only devout catholics enter this country. Yes, eating during mass is both disrespectfull and is a threat to the American way. And it would also be terrible for these individuals who disrespect our Lord become protestent.
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camby:
  1. Illegal immigration is— ILLEGAL. Patrick Henry once stated that America was aland of laws, not men (whims). Illegal immigration has put a break strain on America’s welfare state (unConstitutional anyway). They contribute less thn they take. Christian mercy would indicate helping hte sick and dying, it does not mean break the law and put up a flag and sign to invite lawbreaking.
Absolutely right! And there are other examples that are growing in frequency. There are people firing guns within the city limits! This is clearly illegal. Can you imagine? They claim they had to defend themselves from burglers and rabid dogs or something yet knew about the law! I am so glad that Patrick Henry made sure that those law breakers back then were properly punished. Imagine, destroying someone elses tea, and dissing the King!
 
’ Illegal immigration is— ILLEGAL.’

why is it illegal?
 
jeffreedy789 said:
’ Illegal immigration is— ILLEGAL.’

why is it illegal?

Anything is illegal if you require permission and there is no way to get permission.
Lets say I wanted to reduce the number of legal fire arms. I pass a law that says you must have a licsense to posses one. Then I do not provide an affective agency to administer liscenses. By the way all those folks who already had a fire arm now have them illegaly.

Peace.
 
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OraProNobis:
Unfortunatly, we are not the melting pot we used to be. Until recently the second generation of immigrants have assimilated nicely, but now we have second generations of immigrants that are being raised without even learning the language in which our laws and history are written. This will destroy us as a unified people in the long run.
👍 Go to the topof the class!

Yes. Strength derives from UNITY, not DIVERSITY. Diversity, as Jesus tells us, simply leads to division:

“Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate : and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand” -Matthew 12:25.

Easy to see why they discourage the reading of the Bible.
 
who discourages reading the BIble?

and is anyone willing to examine the roots of our dilemma here? why is immigration illegal?
 
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camby:
Immigration isnt abad thing, esp if theyare Catholics. The problems is 2-fold:
  1. Too many Hispanics appear to be only nominal Catholics, soon to be devoured by Fundamentalists. At my parents church, they set up a taco stand obstensibly for after mass get togethers. IN reality, many during mass come and go, eating at the stand during mass and before Euchrist.
constitutionparty.com
This is an odd point. I’m not sure whether to be amused or dismayed by a (strangely generalized) complaint against Hispanics that seems to target “ostensible” taco eating on church premises and your monitoring of who is breaking the fast before Mass.

To bewail the real lack of proper catechetical formation among cultural Catholics is to have a valid point, but to seemingly target Hispanic immigrants as the main harbingers of such ignorance when in fact they are responsible for much of the Catholic renewal in the Southern U.S. is ludicrous.

Yes, many are poorly formed and susceptible to fundamentalism, but how this pertains to political immigration issues being discussed in this thread beats me, and I can’t help think you are more uncomfortable with and threatened by the dynamics of Hispanic socializing after mass (“get togethers” as you put it) than with the cross-cultural lack of proper religious instruction.
 
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maendem:
This is an odd point. I’m not sure whether to be amused or dismayed by a (strangely generalized) complaint against Hispanics that primarily seems to target “ostensible” taco eating on church premises and your monitoring of who is breaking the fast before Mass.

To bewail the real lack of proper catechetical formation among cultural Catholics is to have a valid point, but to seemingly target Hispanic immigrants as the main harbingers of such ignorance when in fact they are responsible for much of the Catholic renewal in the Southern U.S. is ludicrous.

Yes, many are poorly formed and susceptible to fundamentalism, but how this pertains to political immigration issues being discussed in this thread beats me, and I can’t help think you are more uncomfortable with and threatened by the dynamics of Hispanic socializing after mass (“get togethers” as you put it) than with the cross-cultural lack of proper religious instruction.
 
James is a bit silly in his response to mine

We as a nation need to have laws just like they did at Ellis Island, to weed criminals and known terrorist from decent people trying to get in. IN S. California, reports are stating most violent crimes are the result of illegal immigrants, many who slip back over the border to remain unpunished, some living openly. If theyare violent criminals with records in their own nation, we should know about it. Anyone remember Carter’s Mariol boat lift. Many that came had long, known criminal records and are now sitting in our jails, with our $$ going to them daily. Some have committed heinous acts after arrival.

Firing in the city for no reason, say into buildings or randomly is endangering the public. Protecting oneself or others is rather different than wanton shooting.

If we get away from illegal state run welfare, the system wouldnt be as broke. Charity is for families, churches, etc.

As long as the 2-parties continue to hand out welfare and open borders, the system is broke. If only the states most effected would develop a backbone and tell DC to stuff it, if you arent going to protect us (#1 role of Govt) then we will.
 
Funny how this discussion mimics the gay activists’ hue and cry. If you say anything derogatory (even if true) then you are a bigot. The problem with our open borders and ‘wink and nod’ attitude toward illegals is that the LEGALS are basically punished by complying with the law. Well they are not stupid and we will see less and less compliance. I mean why pay or go through the hoops to immigrate legally when you can walk across the border and be entitled to free medical care, food stamps, and easily find work. We are being unfair to the majority of folks who want to come here to support their families and do want to comply with the laws.

Camby is correct that we are seeing an ever increasing demand on the justice system. It is not simply the hard working migrant family who finds opportunity in the USA. We are seeing much of the drug trade in this state (I cannot speak for others) taken over by Mexicans who can slip back and forth across the border with impunity. Further the criminal element is demonstrating more and more violent behavior. And no this isn’t a figment of my imagination it is well documented by local police. The drug trade simply spawns violence wherever it occurs. Just yesterday we had an illegal convicted of raping an ELEVEN YEAR OLD GIRL who became pregnant. (yes she carried the baby to term). The child was drugged by the man and raped while sleeping. He apparently did this to more than one young girl as more charges are pending now that others have come forward. We have now spent thousands giving him is defense and will spend thousands more maintaining him in our prison system as he serves his sentence along with literally hundreds of his fellow countrymen.

We have got to quit rewarding bad behavior and encouraging compliance with the laws. This is a welcoming country if you want to come here and work honestly. That is all I ask. I do not think that request is evidence of bigotry.

Lisa N
 
Lisa N:
Funny how this discussion mimics the gay activists’ hue and cry. If you say anything derogatory (even if true) then you are a bigot. The problem with our open borders and ‘wink and nod’ attitude toward illegals is that the LEGALS are basically punished by complying with the law. Well they are not stupid and we will see less and less compliance. I mean why pay or go through the hoops to immigrate legally when you can walk across the border and be entitled to free medical care, food stamps, and easily find work. We are being unfair to the majority of folks who want to come here to support their families and do want to comply with the laws.

Camby is correct that we are seeing an ever increasing demand on the justice system. It is not simply the hard working migrant family who finds opportunity in the USA. We are seeing much of the drug trade in this state (I cannot speak for others) taken over by Mexicans who can slip back and forth across the border with impunity. Further the criminal element is demonstrating more and more violent behavior. And no this isn’t a figment of my imagination it is well documented by local police. The drug trade simply spawns violence wherever it occurs. Just yesterday we had an illegal convicted of raping an ELEVEN YEAR OLD GIRL who became pregnant. (yes she carried the baby to term). The child was drugged by the man and raped while sleeping. He apparently did this to more than one young girl as more charges are pending now that others have come forward. We have now spent thousands giving him is defense and will spend thousands more maintaining him in our prison system as he serves his sentence along with literally hundreds of his fellow countrymen.

We have got to quit rewarding bad behavior and encouraging compliance with the laws. This is a welcoming country if you want to come here and work honestly. That is all I ask. I do not think that request is evidence of bigotry.

Lisa N
Another thing, Lisa, a lot of the people coming into the country illegally, have no desire to become part of America. They have no desire to learn English, and become part of our country. All they want is to transplant part of their own country here. If anybody tries to teach them english, and have schools that teach only in english, they are bigoted and insensitive. We are slowly becoming the minority in our own country. Just my opinion.
 
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davy39:
Another thing, Lisa, a lot of the people coming into the country illegally, have no desire to become part of America. They have no desire to learn English, and become part of our country. All they want is to transplant part of their own country here. If anybody tries to teach them english, and have schools that teach only in english, they are bigoted and insensitive. We are slowly becoming the minority in our own country. Just my opinion.
No that reality has been quite well documented. It’s not helped by schools that allow children to continue in their native language not only delaying their learning English but also costing additional monies to hire bilingual teachers.

And it’s not just the Hispanic community. There was a HUGE influx of Somalis after the conflict in that country. While they came as refugees and while some are trying hard to assimilate, many simply want to create a small Somali enclave and live off the largesse of the USofA. We had several who ended up in our homeless shelter with their (extremely delightful) kids. The sad thing though is the women had been here for three years and knew little English, had no job skills, and frankly no desire to work. In their country they were homemakers and working was simply not on the radar screens of young mothers. Both had been abandoned by their husbands and thus appear to be a long term utilizers of government programs. We were able to get them into some transitional housing but I suspect they will never be self supporting because of their refusal to assimilate.

A friend has a small manufacturing company that is almost entirely staffed by immigrants from one of the former Soviet countries. She said not only do they refuse to learn anything beyond rudimentary English, they have brought their past grudges with them and residents of country X refuse to work alongside residents of country Y. She said it makes for a very interesting staffing challenge. Again these folks have been here for many years but do not want to be Americans. They want to live here but they don’t want to assimilate. However, at least they are working legally.

Lisa N
 
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davy39:
…a lot of the people coming into the country illegally, have no desire to become part of America. They have no desire to learn English, and become part of our country. All they want is to transplant part of their own country here…
My mom volunteers with the English as a Second Language for Mexicans in the area. One thing that she has noticed over the years is that many of them come, get pregnant, have their babies, and go back to Mexico. In her experience, the above poster was right on the money. They don’t come here for a “better life” as previous generations of immigrants have done. They come here to reap certain benefits of American society, ensure that their children are considered American citizens, and then leave.

I understand this is an EXTREME generality and taken from only a minute part of the Mexican population, so please don’t flame me for this post. I’m just relaying what I’ve seen in my own local community and I find this a bit troubling.
 
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SavedByHim:
My mom volunteers with the English as a Second Language for Mexicans in the area. One thing that she has noticed over the years is that many of them come, get pregnant, have their babies, and go back to Mexico. In her experience, the above poster was right on the money. They don’t come here for a “better life” as previous generations of immigrants have done. They come here to reap certain benefits of American society, ensure that their children are considered American citizens, and then leave.

I understand this is an EXTREME generality and taken from only a minute part of the Mexican population, so please don’t flame me for this post. I’m just relaying what I’ve seen in my own local community and I find this a bit troubling.
I won’t flame you, SavedByHIm, but having worked in Houston’s Mexican community and shelter circuit for almost ten years now, and being married to a Mexican, I’ll try and point out a few of the implications of your observations. Your observations are mostly true, but their simplicity belies a more complex situation.

First, yes they are coming here for a better life.That’s what “reaping the benefits of American society” means, and those benefits aren’t just welfare, which they are not eligible for anyway.

Immigrants from Mexico come here illegally when they cannot make ends meet in a country whose politics are fraught with corruption and whose economy is very much subject to the conditions imposed with World Bank/IMF loans. Many are farmers or uneducated laborers who cannot survive or feed their children with the average $2 wages (and no, the price of living isn’t cheaper where groceries, toiletries etc is concerned).

With this sort of financial situation THEY ARE NOT ELIGIBLE TO LEGALLY IMMIGRATE; the U.S. will not accept them. So they come here illegally. I’m not defending that; I’m just explaining why illegal immigrants generally aren’t just refusing to jump through the necessary legal hoops. Obviously, if they can’t feed their kids they can’t afford immigration lawyers either (thousands of dollars).

None of the thousands of immigrant women I have worked with over the years came to the U.S. only to bear children who could be U.S. citizens. To leave your hometown and the support of one’s extended family throughout the pregnancy is nearly unthinkable in Mexican culture. It is also next to impossible to make the trip up with a coyote if you’re pregnant.

Yes, many get pregnant here. This is due to a combination of 1)Catholic values (no contraception) and lack of education about alternatives. Obviously, seeing their kids become U.S. citizens, eligible for welfare benefits where the parents are not, is seen as a bonus, and most welcome the chance to give their children a better life than theirs.

They come to the States for sheer survival’s sake. You are right, most don’t want to blend in, because they want to go back to their country as soon as they can financially. They also don’t have to acculturate; Spanish=only enclaves abound in various cities. Again, no value judgement here; just facts.

I’m not sure I have a point to all this information; just that the situation is more complex than some of the silly diatribes offered in other posts recognize. U.S.-Mexico immigration is altering both countries significantly. (Read “Crossing Borders” by Ruben Martinez to see the extent…) That alteration is going to continue and we can’t stick our heads in the sand of xenophobic outcries to avoid it.

I’m not sure if President Bush’s worker policy will work, but it seems to have promise to me. At any rate, something has to be done beyond just building higher fences on the border or knocking them down. As Catholics, we are called to explore alternatives and attitudes motivated by yes, by wisdom, but also charity and compassion; not utilitarianism, fear, hate or callousness.
 
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