Is Ireland's hatred for the church crossing a line?

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Yes, friend, that is exactly how I am viewing it, and one of the personal signs to me that I have made the right choice.
 
JoyToTheWhirled said:
But how interesting that they attack the rosary… it’s almost like they’re acknowledging the fact that prayer can hold back evil, in a very back-handed way.
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This is not a battle between people and their viewpoints, this is a spiritual battle and satan knows very well the power of prayer.

Last year on a pro-life march in Birmingham UK, the first I had attended, the opposition were there shouting abuse waving coat hangers etc. They blocked our route and after the police had moved them to one side and contained them, we walked past them as they shouted all the usual stuff at us.

Then a section of our group started singing , “Ave Maria” and it seemed that all of a sudden the ‘pro-choice’ opposition went up a whole notch in level of venom, you could almost physically feel the hate. Looking at these, mainly young people, and the venom coming from them flabbergasted me. The venom from the other side really was something else.

A deacon who was at the march also told us that a priest was spat on by the opposition at that march at some point.

Satan knows what he is doing and he knows what he hates, he really hates Mary and he knows she will/has crushed his head. I believe that is why there is all the venom aimed at the Rosary. Why else do so many on the ‘pro-choice’ side seem to be so offended by Rosaries?
 
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Roguish said:
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CTBcin:
Ireland’s decline is so tragic. 😦
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Ireland’s decline is the world’s decline. Let’s not pretend it didn’t happen in our backyard.
CTBcin said:
To be fair, the Church in Ireland shot herself in the foot due to sex abuse and coverups, but it’s still tragic to think about.
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But you see, that’s not fair. Approving the killing of unborn babies does not become “somewhat understandable” because a few clergy in the RCC have allegedly been guilty of sexual misconduct. There is simply no relationship possible between these two matters, and it’s horrible to think that there could be.
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I think that you and a few others have missed the point.

The church in Ireland used to be the arbitrer of moral values. It was almost an unconscious decision to naturally follow where the church led. Then a few things happened.

Firstly, there was a tremendous increase in the access everyone had to information. Families went from two or three TV channels to dozens. They went from a single local newspaper to having access to world wide media. The world became a lot smaller. And people, especially younger people, were exposed to views other than those they had accepted without question as being the only option. They realised that they had choices.

Secondly, contraception became commonly available. Women realised that they didn’t have to have large families - they could make a conscious decision as to when they had children and how many they had. And they ignored what the Catholic church had to say on the matter.

Thirdly, higher education became the norm. People went to university and rather than being taught by rote - this is true, this is false, they were literally taught to question things. To debate. To look at situations from different viewpoInts. To question the status quo.

And lastly, we had the scandals that the church has had to deal with. And deal with very badly indeed. So removing a lot of what might have been left of it’s position as the leader of moral values.

So it became apparent to everyone that matters such as ssm and abortion were no longer to be decided by the church as a matter of course. It was realised that these matters were actually up for discussion. That they could be debated. That each side needed reasonable arguments to back their views. And that one could make a personal decsion based on those arguments rather than accept the default position that their parents had. And that their grandparents had.

Those are some of the reasons why the vote was even considered. And the reason why the decision went as it did was because the vast majority of the people now think that the church shouldn’t be making decisions for them. Especially as they now believe the church to be wrong.
 
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In my view, the traditional explanations for declined religiosity in the West don’t hold up (increased prosperity, higher education as such, etc)

The process just took longer in Ireland because they had so many mitigating factors. Most of Ireland entered a typical European milieu some time ago. This isn’t idiosyncratic to Ireland; it just took longer there.

I actually take the opposite viewpoint to Bradskii. The Irish people did not become more thoughtful and rational. They just became more secular in the way that all of Europe did, but there, they have this cultural baggage wrapped up with the Catholic Church, and as they secularized, the cognitive dissonance, this baggage, produced a lot of vitriolic hatred toward it, especially when it tells them they can’t do things that they feel like doing.

By the way, anyone who claims that the Irish became pro-abortion, because once religion was removed, they became more rational and were able to see how it’s okay to terminate the lives of unborn children (implied to be the otherwise self-evident position), shows himself to be not quite as dispassionate and objective as he would have you believe.

 
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Blessings,
I read an article recently. It concerned 64 Chilean Bishops that resigned. How does one resign??! Anyway, they met w the Pope. His response didn’t deter their resignation. They feel the light of Christ is not seen in the church anymore. Do you think? It,also, stated 848 priests were defrocked.(no jail). And1,200(?) Priest were sentenced to prayer & penitence. The Pope can’t send one to jail.! I feel the Police can come get them?! Furthermore, there were over 1000, more gay priests still active that are trying to push for their rights in the church.
Are there enough prayers, that can be said to stop these actions & protect kids? God help us. In Jesus name.
 
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It is very apparent in this case as in other places that what Pope Benedict stated is coming true. The Church will become much leaner, but adherents will be sincere. “Cultural” Catholics will not and cannot last. I for one think this is a good thing. I think Ireland was full, at least over the last generation or so, of “cultural” Catholics–Catholic in name only.
 
As you said, life in a democracy. As opposed to what existed in Ireland not so long ago - which was a defacto theocracy.

And I agree with Limoncello: The age of cultural Catholics is over. The church will indeed be a lot leaner and, I personally think, a lot better for it. But they will have to sacrifice the tremendous influence they had.
 
So you’re suggesting we should make child abuse legal? The logic of the left is really mind-boggling
 
Over at the Casual forum @Athanasiy has posted details about “Being Christian in Western Europe,” a newly released survey from the Pew Research Center. This map shows the Irish Republic, with 80 percent, up near the top of countries where respondents identify as Christian, on an equal level with Italy and Austria and not far behind Portugal, in first place with 83 percent:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

www.pewforum.org

Being Christian in Western Europe

The majority of Europe’s Christians are non-practicing, but they differ from religiously unaffiliated people in their views on God, attitudes toward Muslims and immigrants, and opinions about religion’s role in society.
www.pewforum.org www.pewforum.org
 
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To those in Ireland who remain true to the Church, my prayers are with you. To those in Ireland who are against the Church, my prayers are with you They may think that it was a slap in the face to depict that " cartoon in fact it shows one rosary, that depicts the many rosaries that are being said , God bless…
 
Well, that’s what the Pew survey is all about. I haven’t read it yet but I hope to in a day or two.
 
You can’t really blame them. The Irish are completely lost. Hatred of the Church is gone beyond what might be considered “reasonable”. The Irish have rejected the Christian aspect of their identity and are running as fast as possible toward everything “progressive”.

The fact that 2/3 of the voters see the right to choose an abortion as more important than the right to life is just the confirmation that the culture is lost. There’s a hundred years of work ahead in turning this around.
 
This was decidedly not a protest vote against the Church. I knocked on thousands of doors in this campaign and only once did someone mention the abuse scandals. People had been fed propaganda and lies from the media and the yes side for years and they lapped it up to the point where they really think that abortion will save women’s lives.
 
I realize that there is no relationship between these two matters. But, I’d be willing to bet that in the minds of most of the Irish “Yes” voters, there is (unfortunately).

Also, I’m not saying this decline isn’t occurring in our own backyard, I’m just saying that Ireland’s decline has been quick and dramatic for a country that has always been associated with devout Catholic faith.
 
Mary Eberstadt’s book is quite good, but I posted a video where the foundation hosted her because the talk is shorter than the book
 
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