Is Isis really Islamic

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Linusthe2nd

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Br. Dominic Mary Vernier O.P. argues in the affirmative in a recent Dominicana blog, March 9, 2015. In his view and others Isis is living out, to the letter, the life and teaching and practices of Muhammad himself and thus view themselves as prophets of the prophet. In Brother Dominic’s view,

" Muslims who call the Islamic State un-Islamic are typically, as the Princeton scholar Bernard Haykel, the leading expert on the group’s theology, told me, “embarrassed and politically correct, with a cotton-candy view of their own religion” that neglects “what their religion has historically and legally required.” Many denials of the Islamic State’s religious nature, he said, are rooted in an “interfaith-Christian-nonsense tradition.”

But you can read the article yourself here. dominicanablog.com/.

Linus2nd
 
Of course ISIS is Islamic. However, we shouldn’t let this color our views of all of Islam. To put it in a more understandable manner, Catholics and Protestants once used to argue regularly who is and who isn’t a true Christian. They then proceeded to kill each other over it during certain periods. Today, most people would say both are Christian.

What is or isn’t true Islam seems to me to be nothing more than a pissing contest between two different theologies. What is or isn’t true Islam is for them to decide, not non-Muslims.
 
If the IS are claiming to be Islamic then they are. If they claim “love your enemies” then they are not Islamic.

MJ
 
As in “the real, 100% true to its founding all other versions are just fakes” Islam- no

As in one of the numerous versions of the Islamic faith that given the lack of any real central religious authority can claim to be as religious and “true” to Islamic teachings as any other version- yes
 
MartinJordan said:
If the IS are claiming to be Islamic then they are. If they claim “love your enemies” then they are not Islamic.

MJ
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On what basis can you possibly say this? You seem to be implying that Islam is a religion of hatred for its enemies. Despite Islam’s checkered past, the historical record can easily demonstrate quite the contrary, especially if we are operating on the assumption that Christianity is a religion that advocates “love your enemies.”
 
Islam has no head religious leader like the pope, the adherents of Islam are far more diverse than Christian faiths,I believe.

Therefore, I believe that ISIS is indeed a branch of Islam, but I am not a scholar of this religion, though I find it mildly interesting.

To my knowledge, I’ve seen no one here at CAF that really is an expert on Islam. I doubt there are too many Catholics that have studied it extensively.
 
Well, I like how Dr. Daniel Pipes distinguishes between Islam and Islamism.

Islamism is a domineering political movement.

It may be that ISIS is following Mohammed, who did lead armies and go to war. However, there are many Muslims (believe me, I know them) who would reject what ISIS is doing.

It’s not a case where we can’t sweep all people in a particular religion under the same rug and call it good. There has to be a distinction.

The concern I always have are those who think all Muslims are evil, terrorists or both, and those who are so PC that they defend so-called gay “marriage” on one hand and then on the other make sure that (1) we all know that not all Muslims are bad and (2) when Islamists blow up something the PC crowd goes looking under every rock for white supremacism (as one commentator implied).
 
Is Westboro Baptist Church christian? They think so.

I don’t think ISIS speaks for all of Islam, just like I don’t think radical Christians speak for all of Christianity.
 
It is and it isn’t -it is compatible with 7th century Islam which expanded membership by the point of the sword-all it does one can find in one sura or the other from the Koran-

it is also a social movement assimilating the self described disenfranchised -the flotsam and jetsam of the Arab world-it is a revolutionary movement as well seeking political power

very similar to " The Borg" on star trek - “resistance is futile”

the Islamists are likely to start WWIII which will end their religion

I am amazed that the Orthodox poster was so charitable in his comments-
 
I bet a Chaldean catholic if one can be found on the board would be very familiar with the teachings of Islam
 
I haven’t seen one Chaldean on CAF so far, at least not to my knowledge.

If one reads the Koran, however, you will find it quite disturbing. It has some similarities to the OT I think, but I find it considerably more violent. I need to study more.

This is a good book that I had, but I seem to have misplaced it. It’s good and written partly by Fr. Mitch Pacwa.

amazon.com/Inside-Islam-Catholics-Questions-Answers/dp/0965922855
 
Though there are many Muslims who are against recent atrocities by ISIS, they are the face of Islam. Thy are not doing anything different that Muslims have not done for the last 1400 years. A quick snip-it of the Armenian Genocide is eerily similar to ISIS’ atrocities as to what Armenians endured shortly after a jihad was called against Christians by the Turks in 1914.

" On April 24, 1915, the Armenian genocide began. That day, the Turkish government arrested and executed several hundred Armenian intellectuals. After that, ordinary Armenians were turned out of their homes and sent on death marches through the Mesopotamian desert without food or water. Frequently, the marchers were stripped naked and forced to walk under the scorching sun until they dropped dead. People who stopped to rest were shot.

*"At the same time, the Young Turks created a “Special Organization,” which in turn organized “killing squads” or “butcher battalions” to carry out, as one officer put it, “the liquidation of the Christian elements.” These killing squads were often made up of murderers and other ex-convicts. They drowned people in rivers, threw them off cliffs, crucified them and burned them alive. In short order, the Turkish countryside was littered with Armenian corpses.

Records show that during this “Turkification”campaign government squads also kidnapped children, converted them to Islam and gave them to Turkish families. In some places, they raped women and forced them to join Turkish “harems” or serve as slaves. Muslim families moved into the homes of deported Armenians and seized their property.*

Also, they are not the first to want to march onto Rome, a movie I recommend is Day of the Siege, based on actual events.
 
Are the Crusades and the Antebellem slavery really “Christian”?

I do not like argument based on the “No True Scotsman Fallacy”. Some parts of the Koran can be used to support the contention that Islam is a “religion of peace” while others can justify the slaughter of the Kafir. It is best that one does not focus on the fictitious notion of “true Islam”.

My position is surprisingly tolerant: while I believe one should jettison any politically correct delusion that Islam inherently embraces the values of liberal democracy (the same could also be said about Christianity), one should not associate Muslims with intolerant attitudes, and many do feel alienated and disenfranchised in the West and often have legitimate grievances against the US.
 
KendraDZ1902 said:
Is Westboro Baptist Church christian? They think so.

I don’t think ISIS speaks for all of Islam, just like I don’t think radical Christians speak for all of Christianity.
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The difference being, I think, Westboro really cannot justify its views with anything from the zNew Testament. They’re also not lopping off anyones heads.
 
In some Islamic countries which have nothing to do with ISIS, women are oppressed and brutalized, and other harsh laws prevail.
 
Per_Crucem said:
The difference being, I think, Westboro really cannot justify its views with anything from the zNew Testament. They’re also not lopping off anyones heads.
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It can justify its actions through its version of Christian theology. That this same version would be viewed as grossly in error and containing extra stuff and missing some vital stuff by Catholic theological standards doesn’t mean it isn’t a version of Christianity. It means it is a Christian theology in error.
 
Rohzek said:
On what basis can you possibly say this? You seem to be implying that Islam is a religion of hatred for its enemies. Despite Islam’s checkered past, the historical record can easily demonstrate quite the contrary, especially if we are operating on the assumption that Christianity is a religion that advocates “love your enemies.”
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Isn’t IS claiming to be following Islam or not? That’s the first question.

By saying “love your enemies” , what made you think Im implying that hatred is by wholesale a trait for adherents of Islam? Even pagans or non-believers can’t say it. It doesn’t mean pagans and non-believers are haters.

Back to the first question above. IS have claimed to be adherents of Islam, and Catholics claim to be Christians. I take their word for it.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Isn’t IS claiming to be following Islam or not? That’s the first question.

By saying “love your enemies” , what made you think Im implying that hatred is by wholesale a trait for adherents of Islam? Even pagans or non-believers can’t say it. It doesn’t mean pagans and non-believers are haters.
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Your response simply gave the impression that you held the ideas of Islam and “love your enemies” to be mutually exclusive to one another. That’s why I called you out on it.

I am not really sure what you are trying to say with the last two sentences here. Could you perhaps be more clear?
 
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