Is Islam a threat to Christianity around the globe?

[KathleenGee]

Just as Muslims --outside Judeo-Christianity through just culture alone – can say they know the truth of the crucifixion without any witnesses and deny any verification of this by Christians, that is dangerous.

Just like some Muslims ignoring the truth that the Catholic Church condemns usury to impose Shariah on us. That is inhumane to impose Sharia on us when our faith already condemns usury.

To deny Christians their own beliefs outside your own cultural history is not based on reason and understanding --it is inhumane.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Quran Verses in Chronological Order:
Chronological Order Name Revelation Order

1 Alaq (Al-) 19 Mecca 96
2 Qalam (Al-) 52 Mecca 68
3 Muzammil (Al-) 20 Mecca 73
4 Mudathir (Al-) 56 Mecca 74
5 Fatehah 7 Mecca 1
6 Masad (Al-) 5 Mecca 111
7 Takwir (Al-) 29 Mecca 81
8 A’la (Al-) 19 Mecca 87
9 Leyl (Al-) 21 Mecca 92
10 Fajr (Al-) 30 Mecca 89
11 Dhuha (Al-) 11 Mecca 93
12 Sharh (Al-) 8 Mecca 94
13 Asr (Al-) 3 Mecca 103
14 Aadiyat (Al-) 11 Mecca 100
15 Kauthar (Al-) 3 Mecca 108
16 Takathur (Al-) 8 Mecca 102
17 Ma’un (Al-) 7 Mecca 107
18 Kafirun (Al-) 6 Mecca 109
19 Fil (Al-) 5 Mecca 105
20 Falaq (Al-) 5 Mecca 113
21 Nas (Al-) 6 Mecca 114
22 Ikhlas (Al-) 4 Mecca 112
23 Najm (Al-) 62 Mecca 53
24 Abasa 42 Mecca 80
25 Qadr (Al-) 5 Mecca 97
26 Shams (Al-) 15 Mecca 91
27 Bhruj (Al-) 22 Mecca 85
28 T’in (Al-) 8 Mecca 95
29 Qureysh 4 Mecca 106
30 Qariah (Al-) 11 Mecca 101
31 Qiyamah (Al-) 40 Mecca 75
32 Humazah (Al-) 9 Mecca 104
33 Mursalat (Al-) 50 Mecca 77
34 Q’af 45 Mecca 50
35 Balad (Al-) 20 Mecca 90
36 Tariq (Al-) 17 Mecca 86
37 Qamr (Al-) 55 Mecca 54
38 Sad 88 Mecca 38
39 A’Raf (Al-) 206 Mecca 7
40 J’nn (Al-) 28 Mecca 72
41 Ya’sin 83 Mecca 36
42 Farqan (Al-) 77 Mecca 25
43 Fatir 45 Mecca 35
44 Maryam 98 Mecca 19
45 Ta Ha 135 Mecca 20
46 Waqiah (Al-) 96 Mecca 56
47 Shuara (Al-) 226 Mecca 26
48 Naml (Al-) 93 Mecca 27
49 Qasas (Al-) 88 Mecca 28
50 Israa (Al-) 111 Mecca 17
51 Yunus 109 Mecca 10
52 Hud 123 Mecca 11
53 Yousuf 111 Mecca 12
54 Hijr (Al-) 99 Mecca 15
55 Ana’m (Al-) 165 Mecca 6
56 Saffat (Al-) 182 Mecca 37
57 Luqman 34 Mecca 31
58 Saba 54 Mecca 34
59 Zamar (Al-) 75 Mecca 39
60 Ghafer 85 Mecca 40
61 Fazilat 54 Mecca 41
62 Shura (Al-) 53 Mecca 42
63 Zukhruf (Al-) 89 Mecca 43
64 Dukhan (Al-) 59 Mecca 44
65 Jathiyah (Al-) 37 Mecca 45
66 Ahqaf (Al-) 35 Mecca 46
67 Dhariyat (Al-) 60 Mecca 51
68 Ghashiya (Al-) 26 Mecca 88
69 Kahf (Al-) 110 Mecca 18
70 Nahl (Al-) 128 Mecca 16
71 Noah 28 Mecca 71
72 Ibhrahim 52 Mecca 14
73 Anbiya (Al-) 112 Mecca 21
74 Muminun (Al-) 118 Mecca 23
75 Sajdah (Al-) 30 Mecca 32
76 Tur (Al-) 49 Mecca 52
77 Mulk (Al-) 30 Mecca 67
78 Haqqah (Al-) 52 Mecca 69
79 Maarij (Al-) 44 Mecca 70
80 Naba (Al-) 40 Mecca 78
81 Naziat (Al-) 46 Mecca 79
82 Infitar (Al-) 19 Mecca 82
83 Inshiqaq (Al-) 25 Mecca 84
84 Rum (Al-) 60 Mecca 30
85 Ankabut (Al-) 69 Mecca 29
86 Motafefin (Al-) 36 Mecca 83
87 Baqarah (Al-) 286 Madina 2
88 Anfal (Al-) 75 Madina 8
89 Imran (Al-) 200 Madina 3
90 Ahzab (Al-) 73 Madina 33
91 Mumtahana (Al-) 13 Madina 60
92 Nisa (Al-) 176 Madina 4
93 Zilzaleh (Al-) 8 Madina 99
94 Hadid (Al-) 29 Madina 57
95 Muhammad 38 Madina 47
96 Ra’d (Al-) 43 Madina 13
97 Rahman (Al-) 78 Madina 55
98 Ensan (Al-) 31 Madina 76
99 Talaq (Al-) 12 Madina 65
100 Beyinnah (Al-) 8 Madina 98
101 Hashr (Al-) 24 Madina 59
102 Nur (Al-) 64 Madina 24
103 Hajj (Al-) 78 Madina 22
104 Munafiqun (Al-) 11 Madina 63
105 Mujadila (Al-) 22 Madina 58
106 Hujurat (Al-) 18 Madina 49
107 Tahrim (Al-) 12 Madina 66
108 Taghabun (Al-) 18 Madina 64
109 Saff (Al-) 14 Madina 61
110 Jumah (Al-) 11 Madina 62
111 Fath (Al-) 29 Madina 48
112 Maidah (Al-) 120 Madina 5
113 Taubah (Al-) 129 Madina 9
114 Nasr (Al-) 3 Madina 110

That’s an interesting part of your post, schaick. Out of curiosity, where did you get that list?

 

[jewells17]

Google “Hitler photograph with Gand Mufti”. This can be found on several websites and there is one called www.tellthechildrenthetruth.org or .com. Can’t vouch for that site cause I only just ran across it but was shown the photograph many years ago. It is frightening to think Hitler may have been backed and supported by Moslems. I guess they really did have alot in common but I hope it’s not true.

 

[GraceSofia]

They not only lack the will, but they exacerbate, and in some cases are the cause of, the problem.

Traditional morality judges the morality of actions. But according to modern liberal thought, such judgment is being “judgmental”. So the modern liberal has replaced traditional morality with tolerance, inclusion, and multiculturalism. Once liberal tolerance rather than traditional morality became our guiding principle, we must ultimately tolerate the presence of evil, because to do otherwise is being “judgmental” and therefore immoral. Note that once a society embraces tolerance in lieu of judging actions, it loses the ability to govern at all.

Agreed.

 

[GraceSofia]

As I read that part of the CCC that deals with Islam, in theory, one could leave the Church for Islam and still be saved. You gotta ask yourself why is it that of all the heresies down through the centuries, the Church honors Islam and not the others? What gives?

Does anyone know the history behind CCC 841? I am curious as to when that became part of the Church’s teaching. I suppose it could change since it is not a matter of dogma?

The CCC has only one line about Islam, so I don’t think the Church is honoring it too much really. I don’t know whether it would be of benefit if the Church came out against Islam; I think we have to trust the Church on this, although to my limited understanding I agree that it seems like it would be better if the CCC did not seem so conciliatory. Maybe it is better for the Church to teach what it is FOR rather than what it is AGAINST, and ultimately this may win more Muslim souls to conversion.

There are hundreds of thousands of Christians living under Muslim rule; their lives are already precarious. The Church cannot risk having all those people killed. That doesn’t mean that lay people shouldn’t speak the truth whenever they can, especially on issues in the West. However, the Church is prudent, and she has a long memory. I just watched the film “The Ninth Day,” where they point is made that every time bishops or Pope Pius XII made a statement against the Nazis, it went worse for the Catholics under the Nazis.

The Archbishop of Utrecht was warned by the Nazis not to protest the deportation of Dutch Jews. In defiance, he published a letter on April 19, 1942, which was read in every Catholic church in the country. The bishops of Holland jointly denounced “the unmerciful and unjust treatment meted out to Jews by those in power in our country.” The Nazis responded by revoking the exception that had been given to Jews who had been baptized and a round up was ordered. The Gestapo made a special effort to round up every monk, nun and priest who had even a drop of Jewish blood. Some 300 victims were deported to Auschwitz and immediately sent to the gas chambers. Among them was Saint Edith Stein. According to John Vidmar, “The brutality of the retaliation made an enormous impression on Pius XII.”[53] Henceforth, he avoided open, confrontational denunciations of the Nazis.[54] . . .

In a letter to Konrad von Preysing, Bishop of Berlin, Pius referred to the Nazi retribution in Holland as one reason why he offered only muted criticism in his public statements:

“We leave it to the [local] bishops to weigh the circumstances in deciding whether or not to exercise restraint, ad maiora mala vitanda [to avoid greater evil]. This would be advisable if the danger of retaliatory and coercive measures would be imminent in cases of public statements of the bishop. Here lies one of the reasons We Ourselves restrict Our public statements. The experience We had in 1942 with documents which We released for distribution to the faithful gives justification, as far as We can see, for Our attitude.”

In a conversation with Archbishop Giovanni Battista Montini (later Pope Paul VI), Pius said, “We would like to utter words of fire against such actions; and the only thing restraining Us from speaking is the fear of making the plight of the victims worse” [64]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany#Protest_of_Dutch_bishops

Does a similar situation exist now? “We leave it to the local bishops…” And lay people?

 

[planten]

Just as Muslims --outside Judeo-Christianity through just culture alone – can say they know the truth of the crucifixion without any witnesses and deny any verification of this by Christians, that is dangerous. ]/quote]

Crucufixion i.e. death on the Cross, is denied in the Quran. The bible also mentioned that Jesus will suffer and he suffered on the Cross. In many parts of bibleNT, there is mention of suffering.

All people present at Golgatha had to say that Jesus was dead. Otherwise the soldiers were bound to kill him by braking his bones. That would have been seriously harmful to the cause of Jesus.

I feel that as the christians are serious about the death of Jesus on the Cross, similarly the Muslims are very serious that Jesus did not die on the cross. Ask any man of any sect in Islam. He would say that Jesus was not killed on the cross.

Just like some Muslims ignoring the truth that the Catholic Church condemns usury to impose Shariah on us. That is inhumane to impose Sharia on us when our faith already condemns usury

 

[planten]

There are many bad practices in Muslim majority countries against the christians. During month of Ramadhan, the Muslism are fasting. So they want to observe that all people keep their mouth shut, whether he/she is a Muslim or Hindu or christian. That is not fair.

The fasting is for the Muslims. It is not for the Hindus or Christians. So why7 people stop them from eating and drinking?? The Muslims want that there should be no eating or drinking in public by any person during the month of Ramadhan. That is unfair and bad practice. What the Muslism gain by that bad practice, I do not know.

Similarly, drinking, i.e. wine etc. The Muslims do not want that there should be any wine shop in their countries, even for non-Muslims. That is not understood. The wine may be forbidden to the Muslims only. Why to clamp down that strictness on the non-Muslims???

I give two (or more) examples, some good some bad.

1. I had a christian colleague working under me. During the month of Ramadhan, I started fasting. He said that he will also fast, the whole month. So he did very well. Nobody told him. He was such a nice guy. (Good)
2. In France in a five star hotel in Brest, there was a group of Muslims staying for some long time. It happened that there was the month of Ramadhan. The management asked us about anything special that may be needed during the month. So catering manager came and all the friends gave him the requirements. He noted all and arranged everything for us.

He also said that he was also Muslim and would be happy to arrange everything. He used to eat with us for the first two days at sunset. In the eraly morning meal (Sehri), we had a lift operator who said that he was a Muslim and needed to eat to start his fast. We welcomed him and we told him about te catering manager who was also Muslim.

He laughed and told us that manager is not a Muslim. He is a Jew. But I was very happy with the good behaviour of that Jew. (Good)

1. Once my son (four year aold) was having fever, WE were taking him to a doctor. It was about 5 p.m. that was about two hours before breakfast (fatoor). My son became thirsty. WE needed water. I tried to get some water or cold drink. The shopkeeper would not sell me any drink because it was Muslim country and sale of drinks was strictly forbidden.
   (Bad).
2. Once I was in Portsmouth area (Fareham) and there was the month of Ramadhan. We were about 8 students. The officials called us and made good arrangement for us for fasting. They gave us the keys of cook house (Galley) where there was food for about 500 students, all British. We had no problem observing our religious duties. (Good)
3. While returning to UK from holidays abroad, the airline company gave the passengers some bottles of wine. I got two bottles of some high quality wine in Athens. When I reached my institution, I wrapped one bottle in a towel and quietly gave it to my superior officer (Mr. Holding). He was very happy.

Then in the evening, I gathered all my English friends in living area and gave them the other bottle. They all jumped with joy and started singing "He is a Jolly good fellow…’ (Good/ bad??)

 

[KingAlfred]

**When one studies the history of Islam, the Quran, the tenets of Sharia Law, and the plethora of pronouncements made by Islam’s main schools of theological jurisprudence, and follows the news, regarding Islamic terrorism directed against America, one cannot help but conclude that yes, Islam is a threat to Christianity. It is also a great threat to basically everything else human. That does not mean, however, that all Muslims are bad people. It is simply a matter of a gigantic, gradually escalating clash of religions and cultures. **

 

[jakasaki]

Google “Hitler photograph with Gand Mufti”. This can be found on several websites and there is one called www.tellthechildrenthetruth.org or .com. Can’t vouch for that site cause I only just ran across it but was shown the photograph many years ago. It is frightening to think Hitler may have been backed and supported by Moslems. I guess they really did have alot in common but I hope it’s not true.

This is true and we did cover it on other threads from a long time ago. But if you want to know more, here is another web site. The muslims fought with the Nazi’s to help the “extermination” of people(s).

eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/bosnia.html

 

[sedonaman]

…
If Catholic church condemns usuary [sic], that is very good. But will you please quote it from your bibleNT and not from yourself. …

It used to be that charging any interest on a loan was considered usury, but not today. So what do you mean by usury?

 

[sedonaman]

…
There are hundreds of thousands of Christians living under Muslim rule; their lives are already precarious. The Church cannot risk having all those people killed. …

Good point. Sometimes, though, it does appear that the Church pursues “dialog” to a fault.

 

[planten]

It used to be that charging any interest on a loan was considered usury, but not today. So what do you mean by usury?

Please see KathlennG post #178 below. Then understand what is meant by Usuary. I wanted to know if Usuary is really forbidden by the words of bibleNT. If so then give some reference please if Jesus said any word on the subject of Usuary. Thanks.

Just like some Muslims ignoring the truth that the Catholic Church condemns usury to impose Shariah on us. That is inhumane to impose Sharia on us when our faith already condemns usury

I do not like that any one should impose the Sharia laws on non-Muslims. There is not to be any such thing. Even in Muslim countries, Sharia laws should be for the Muslims only. But some punishments for the crimes could be dealt with under the Laws of Sharia in Muslim countries.

 

[manualman]

Planten,

I find your examples puzzling. If I were a resident of, say, Saudi Arabia, I would not mind a single bit if I were unable to eat publicly during Ramadan fasting periods, were unable to buy beer, unable to buy a ham sandwich. Those things are part of living in another culture and should not be offensive to anybody who chooses to live there as a religious minority. The majority culture DOES have a right to live their faith together and express it in community, so I don’t think christians should take offense to these.

What really puzzles me is that your examples omit the REALLY offensive and evil things that occur in such countries, such as:

1. It is illegal for christians to gather together, purchase land and build a church.
2. It is illegal for a christian to distribute rosaries or bibles or even evangelize among muslims.
3. A muslim who converts to christianity can actually be PROSECUTED by the state!
4. I am not sure if it is still practised, but it is my understanding the christians in muslim countries have historically had to live under dhimmi status (fewer rights than muslims citizens) and pay extra taxes (jizra? sp?) for no reason other than their religious status.
5. A woman who is raped often has no realistic chance of pursuing justice against the rapist unless the guy did it in front of a bunch of TV cameras.

Some of these are ancient customs that go back to the time of Muhammed themselves. How can these injustices ever be ended if they are so connected to the heart of Islam?

 

[spn82756]

Planten,

I find your examples puzzling. If I were a resident of, say, Saudi Arabia, I would not mind a single bit if I were unable to eat publicly during Ramadan fasting periods, were unable to buy beer, unable to buy a ham sandwich. Those things are part of living in another culture and should not be offensive to anybody who chooses to live there as a religious minority. The majority culture DOES have a right to live their faith together and express it in community, so I don’t think christians should take offense to these.

What really puzzles me is that your examples omit the REALLY offensive and evil things that occur in such countries, such as:

1. It is illegal for christians to gather together, purchase land and build a church.
2. It is illegal for a christian to distribute rosaries or bibles or even evangelize among muslims.
3. A muslim who converts to christianity can actually be PROSECUTED by the state!
4. I am not sure if it is still practised, but it is my understanding the christians in muslim countries have historically had to live under dhimmi status (fewer rights than muslims citizens) and pay extra taxes (jizra? sp?) for no reason other than their religious status.
5. A woman who is raped often has no realistic chance of pursuing justice against the rapist unless the guy did it in front of a bunch of TV cameras.

Some of these are ancient customs that go back to the time of Muhammed themselves. How can these injustices ever be ended if they are so connected to the heart of Islam?

Not only prosecuted…but condemned to death for being an apostate.

 

[sedonaman]

Please see KathlennG post #178 below. Then understand what is meant by Usuary. I wanted to know if Usuary is really forbidden by the words of bibleNT. If so then give some reference please if Jesus said any word on the subject of Usuary. Thanks.
…

She is not clear on what she means by usury, but what she thinks doesn’t matter. Your question cannot be answered unless you state clearly what you think usury is.

 

[jakasaki]

That’s an interesting part of your post, schaick. Out of curiosity, where did you get that list?

Hi there Byz_Wolf:

There is a copy of it posted on wiki islam

wikiislam.com/wiki/Chronological_Order_of_the_Quran

Edit to add:

Byz - here is another site that might be of interest to you.

Chronological Order of Quranic Surahs

bombaxo.com/chronsurs.html

 

[schaick]

**Byzantine_Wolf - **Over the years of studing Islam I have used many different sites, books to collabrate my information.
qran.org/q-chrono.htm is where I actually copied the list from. Funny thing though the 51st Chapter they listed as 19 but it is actually 10.

planten- there are hadiths that say Mohammad never left any information about how to compile the Quran. In fact there was a fear that some verses had been lost because of deaths of so many who had memorized verses were killed. Many remember, even Aisha that there were more verses in some of the Chapters they what were written nd compiled.

planten- did you ever think of what would happen to the soldiers if Jesus was not dead and taken off the cross?

Kathleen_Gee -Actually the only thing the Quran denies is that the Jews killed Jesus-Which of course is correct the Jews didn’t kill Jesus it was because of sinful man that GOD sent Jesus.

Check this out:
3:54* And plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
3:55 When God said: "You Jesus I am, I am making you die and raising you to Me and purifying you from those who disbelieved, and making those who followed you above those who disbelieved to the Resurrection Day, then to Me your return, so I judge/rule between you in what, you were in it differing

Then in another chapter the story is finished:
4:156 And with their disbelief, and their saying on Mary great falsehood/slander.
4:157 That they said, “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Side note- the Quran is a big jumble of stories one started in one chapter and finished much later, bits told there bits told here. Quotes repeated but with different wording in the quote!

Tolerance of Islam explained:

youtube.com/watch?v=plyS8sIUjmQ&feature=player_embedded

 

[mark_a]

Is the rise of Islam in America and around the world going to be dangerous to the spread and livelihood of Catholicism.

To me the question of whether (radical jihadist) Islam is dangerous to Catholics around the world has to do with whether or not non-radical, peaceful Muslims will stand up against their radical brothers if it means standing with Catholics.

I have my doubts.

I would love to hear that I’m wrong from the Muslims on this board.

 

[Mattapoisett64]

Unquestionably. Absolutely. You betcha.

 

[planten]

It used to be that charging any interest on a loan was considered usury, but not today. So what do you mean by usury?

sedonaman, Usuary may be the compound form of interest, or it may be simple interest. The Muslims believe that even simple interest is forbidden.

Now please bring something from Jesus a.s. preaching against Usuary or simple interest (from the bibleNT). Thanks.