Is Islam a threat to Christianity around the globe?

[planten]

Planten,

I find your examples puzzling. If I were a resident of, say, Saudi Arabia, I would not mind a single bit if I were unable to eat publicly during Ramadan fasting periods, were unable to buy beer, unable to buy a ham sandwich. Those things are part of living in another culture and should not be offensive to anybody who chooses to live there as a religious minority. The majority culture DOES have a right to live their faith together and express it in community, so I don’t think christians should take offense to these.

What really puzzles me is that your examples omit the REALLY offensive and evil things that occur in such countries, such as:

1. It is illegal for christians to gather together, purchase land and build a church.
2. It is illegal for a christian to distribute rosaries or bibles or even evangelize among muslims.
3. A muslim who converts to christianity can actually be PROSECUTED by the state!
4. I am not sure if it is still practised, but it is my understanding the christians in muslim countries have historically had to live under dhimmi status (fewer rights than muslims citizens) and pay extra taxes (jizra? sp?) for no reason other than their religious status.
5. A woman who is raped often has no realistic chance of pursuing justice against the rapist unless the guy did it in front of a bunch of TV cameras.

Some of these are ancient customs that go back to the time of Muhammed themselves. How can these injustices ever be ended if they are so connected to the heart of Islam?

I agree with you for all the points 1 to 5 above. Islam is not what is being practiced today by the Muslims in Muslim majority countries and else where in Europe etc. The Muslims do not have any spiritual leader. There was Khomaeni called Ayatullah in Iran and there was Mulla Umar in Afghanistan who appeared to be some kind of leaders.

But they were not leaders. They were more like Hitler. Hitler was apparantly a great leader for the German people. But what did he do? There some important thing missing in him. So he led his nation to destruction. Same had been the case with Khomaini and Mulla Umar. I can prove the mistake of Khoaini and Mulla Umar from the Quran. Thei behaviour was anti-Islamic.

I am least interested in politics or political struggle. I do not want to blame the Germans and the Iranians and the Afghans. They had followed some one and paid enough price. I admire Churchil and Stalin. They did more for their nations as a leader, even though I do not support the theory of the Soviets Communism. I supprt the free world to some extent.

The problem with your above 5 points is a religious jealousy and politics. The christians could get land in S. Arabia and preach there, if they preach peacefully. But they abuse Muhammad while Muslims never do that to Jesus or his mother. I believe that peaceful practice and preaching of all faiths should be allowed in all countries. A good example of that had been in the British rule in India from 1800 to 1947 A.D. Also good example is the present rules of secular governments in western countries and India etc.

Killing of apostates was never the practice of the prophet Muhammad unless it was war time or the apostate was a killer / muderer. There is no order in the Quran to kill an apostate. It may be found in some weak hadith, and Hadith cannot overtake the Quran.

But there are Hindus in India who are burning the churches… What can one do against such bad things !!

 

[dzheremi]

You admire Stalin? What?

 

[jewells17]

You admire Stalin? What?

Right…that speaks volumes. Enough said.

 

[seraphime2008]

sedonaman, Usuary may be the compound form of interest, or it may be simple interest. The Muslims believe that even simple interest is forbidden.

Now please bring something from Jesus a.s. preaching against Usuary or simple interest (from the bibleNT). Thanks.

Planten, in Indonesia many banks open their sharia branch, not many are successful because even the muslim lay people who don’t understand the calculation of interest know that they still have to pay more for loan and get less if they save their money there. Though u say it’s not usuary or taking interest that the bank is charging their customers, but it seems to me that the “profit sharing” methode of shariah still makes it to be another shape of interest in banking system, mostly the bank will take 65% for the profit and only 35% for the customer, and I don’t understand if a bank fails to operate because of their own mismanagement or mistreat of the money, the customer should also take the risk that they don’t have hands on? …pardon me if I don’t really explain it well. I don’t understand the shariah based bank operational system.

 

[planten]

You admire Stalin? What?

Yes, in some limited way. I know many people (nations) suffered under his rule. But he was clever. The way he moved about was not same as Khomaini and Mulla Umar. I can only explain my point by one small example from history, when Japanese foreign minister was returning from Germany to Japan by train (to Viladivastik).

That was a few weeks before Hitler attacked Russia and it was before the Japanese attacked pearl harbor.

Stalin himself came on the railway station to greet (meet) the Japanese foriegn minister. Being the head of state of Russia, there was no need to come to meet the Japanese FM.
And people should not forget the important role of Stalin in defeating Hitler.

Please forgive me if I said anything wrong / harmful.

 

[jewells17]

Most of the radical Moslem terrorists are clever too…which fruit of the Holy Spirit does this come from? And why do you admire that when clever Stalin was so evil? Your priorities are spiritually disordered. Wonder why?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Right…that speaks volumes. Enough said.

Oh my, is that a smoldering bullet hole in planten’s shoe there?

 

[jewells17]

Oh my, is that a smoldering bullet hole in planten’s shoe there?

Sorry for being so dense…but what does that mean? Did I do something wrong? It’s just my opinion.

 

[manualman]

…The problem with your above 5 points is a religious jealousy and politics. The christians could get land in S. Arabia and preach there, if they preach peacefully. But they abuse Muhammad while Muslims never do that to Jesus or his mother. I believe that peaceful practice and preaching of all faiths should be allowed in all countries. A good example of that had been in the British rule in India from 1800 to 1947 A.D. Also good example is the present rules of secular governments in western countries and India etc.

Planten,

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and the opportunity to hear about Islam from an actual muslim. Far too many Americans have no such opportunity.

I can see why you say christians ‘abuse’ Muhammad, but I’d like to explore that idea a little. Muslims deny that Jesus was God, but appear not to notice that this is an abuse of Jesus who clearly claimed to be “I am.” Christians cannot entirely treat Muhammad with the respect due a prophet because we believe that some of what Muhammad said is simply not true. If he claimed to receive revelation from an angel, but didn’t, that is hard for us to respect. That isn’t abuse, it is disagreement. It may be blasphemy in Islam, but it is unavoidable. Perhaps you don’t refer to this, but instead some of the mean spirited things said by christians (even in forums like this). As you said, people are people and we all have problems with sin, muslim, christian and Hindu alike.

Thanks for keeping cool and presenting your side of the story with class and charity.

 

[spn82756]

Yes, in some limited way. I know many people (nations) suffered under his rule. But he was clever. The way he moved about was not same as Khomaini and Mulla Umar. I can only explain my point by one small example from history, when Japanese foreign minister was returning from Germany to Japan by train (to Viladivastik).

That was a few weeks before Hitler attacked Russia and it was before the Japanese attacked pearl harbor.

Stalin himself came on the railway station to greet (meet) the Japanese foriegn minister. Being the head of state of Russia, there was no need to come to meet the Japanese FM.
And people should not forget the important role of Stalin in defeating Hitler.

Please forgive me if I said anything wrong / harmful.

Stalin had little to do with defeating Hitler. Stalin had a pact with Hitler until Hitler attacked Russia. Even when the attack was underway…Stalin refused to acknowledge that Hitler had turned on him. It was the west that defeated Hitler. In particular the United States and Great Britain. Great Britain…always an American ally.

 

[spn82756]

Planten,

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and the opportunity to hear about Islam from an actual muslim. Far too many Americans have no such opportunity.

I can see why you say christians ‘abuse’ Muhammad, but I’d like to explore that idea a little. Muslims deny that Jesus was God, but appear not to notice that this is an abuse of Jesus who clearly claimed to be “I am.” Christians cannot entirely treat Muhammad with the respect due a prophet because we believe that some of what Muhammad said is simply not true. If he claimed to receive revelation from an angel, but didn’t, that is hard for us to respect. That isn’t abuse, it is disagreement. It may be blasphemy in Islam, but it is unavoidable. Perhaps you don’t refer to this, but instead some of the mean spirited things said by christians (even in forums like this). As you said, people are people and we all have problems with sin, muslim, christian and Hindu alike.

Thanks for keeping cool and presenting your side of the story with class and charity.

Planten…

Mohammad claimed to receive the Quran from the Angel Gabriel. The same angel that told Mary that she would conceive the Son of God. The true God. Emmanuel… God is with us. As Christians we believe that. Therefore we cannot believe that Gabriel told Mohammad that Jesus was not God and that it was just a corruption of Holy Scripture by Christians. It just doesn’t fit.

 

[KathleenGee]

Back to usury…and Sharia claiming it alone can bring financial justice…

To the Gospels, Jesus said that if someone takes your coat, He means any possession, let them have it…how difficult it is for the rich to enter heaven…that He is before the heart of every human being, and we will be judged on our mercy or lack of, to our neighbor.

It is humane to give to one in need. If it is money, to give and if it is borrowed, let them pay you back the equal sum…if there is an agreement to also pay extra that is fine. This is in humane terms.

The Church has historically condemned usury, and since the Middle Ages with the great changes to peoples, religion, and society, the problems became more complex with monetary systems…but the focus is always the same…when dealing with humans who suffer and are in need, we are to respond most humanely.

About denying the Crucifixion…we burned that one out…my point is. Islamicists are outside the JudeoChristian culture and cannot substantiate their claims about being right about our faith, about Christ’s death and resurrection, and the fact they have no historical basis as well…but are apparently not able to even comprehend the reason of this problem. That is very dangerous!

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

What, do you think, are the percentages of Muslims who respect other people and their faiths–

and can admit they do not know everything about others’ beliefs and cultures?–

And have some basic knowledge to know there is a disadvantage of being from the outside of these same cultures and traditions?

 

[KathleenGee]

Finally, looking at our political parties both in America and elsewhere, I am with Pope Benedict that the world needs Christ and Christian missionaries to share Him…

Only Christ can bring true and lasting peace and justice to this world because He is the Lord and Messiah…not a Bible or Quran…in themselves books…but this living relationship with Christ.

 

[schaick]

Killing of apostates was never the practice of the prophet Muhammad unless it was war time or the apostate was a killer / muderer. There is no order in the Quran to kill an apostate. It may be found in some weak hadith, and Hadith cannot overtake the Quran.

You should really read up on Sharia Law- Islamic Law does absolutely call for the death of apostates.

There is a great book Reliance of the Traveler I think is the title the main schools of Islamic Law follow the book- it mentions that if a Muslims kills an apostate there is no punishment required!!

Hadith-Burkhari is trusted:
Bukhari, volume 9, #17
"Narrated Abdullah: Allah’s Messenger said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims.”

Bukhari, volume 9, #57
Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s messenger forbade it, saying, “Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).” I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Messenger, “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.”

Bukhari, volume 9, #58
Narrated Abu Bruda, "Abu Musa said…Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Musa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and hen reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, “I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger,” and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers …

Bukhari volume 4, #656:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
Allah’s Apostle said, “You will be resurrected (and assembled) bare-footed, naked and uncircumcised.” The Prophet then recited the Divine Verse:-- “As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it: A promise We have undertaken. Truly we shall do it.” (21.104)

He added, "The first to be dressed will be Abraham. Then some of my companions will take to the right and to the left. I will say: 'My companions! 'It will be said, ‘They had been renegades since you left them.’ I will then say what the Pious Slave Jesus, the son of Mary said: ‘And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them; when You did take me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if you forgive them, You, only You are the All-Mighty the All-Wise.’ "

Narrated Quaggas, “Those were the apostates who renegade from Islam during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr who fought them”.(5.117-118)

Apostates in Islam can be considered hypocrites-they say they believe one way then have a change of heart. Funny the one verse says allah causes the hypocrisy and the next verse they are to then be killed.

Quran-
4.88 Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.

4.89 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing: But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

planten:

I do not like that any one should impose the Sharia laws on non-Muslims. There is not to be any such thing. Even in Muslim countries, Sharia laws should be for the Muslims only. But some punishments for the crimes could be dealt with under the Laws of Sharia in Muslim countries.

Isn’t it true that as a Muslim you have to believe that Sharia Law as being from allah and based on the Quran? Don’t you as a Muslim believe that Sharia law is the best Law? So really don’t you think the world would be a better place if all of it followed Sharia Law?

 

[planten]

You should really read up on Sharia Law- Islamic Law does absolutely call for the death of apostates.

There is a great book Reliance of the Traveler I think is the title the main schools of Islamic Law follow the book- it mentions that if a Muslims kills an apostate there is no punishment required!!

I believe you are right. But is it in the Quran?? No. So please do not teach such things.

Hadith-Burkhari is trusted:
Bukhari, volume 9, #17
"Narrated Abdullah: Allah’s Messenger said,…
Bukhari, volume 9, #57
Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali …

Bukhari, volume 9, #58
Narrated Abu Bruda, "Abu Musa said…

Bukhari volume 4, #656:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
Allah’s Apostle said, …: A promise We have undertaken. Truly we shall do it." (21.104)

Bukhari, Bukhari, Bukhari… It all has to be presented before the Quran. If it does not pass the test and it is not according to Quran, it need not be believed. It is not necessary to practice those bad news.

Narrated Quaggas, “Those were the apostates …”.(5.117-118)

Somebody said. How could that person explain the verses of Quran after the Prophet had died. How did he know that it was about the apostates??

Apostates in Islam can be considered hypocrites-they say they believe one way then have a change of heart. …

First of all,a postate is a one who says that Christianity is a false religion. That Islam is a false religion. That he does not believe in any of those religions any more…
A Hypocrite is different person. He/she shuttles back and forth in favor or against a faith and is not sure which way to go. But the apostate is sure about what he/she is doing.
There is no order in the Quran to kill any apostate. Hadith alone cannot award capital punishment. So that is the end of all those Hadith calling for the death of an apostate.

Moreover, it is against the principle “There is no compulsion in religion.” Verse 2:256.
Moreover, the killing of apostates nullifies all types of preaching. What use is preaching if a person has no choice to accept a certain faith??
Are you suggesting that in church system, there is no order to kill an apostate?? If so, please show me from your bibleNT in clear words about the apostates. Until then, all your lecture is useless.

Quran-
4.88 Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.

4.89 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing: But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

The above verses are for the war time. Apostate may be punished during war time. You have not posted all the verses on the subject. I will present the verses in next post::

 

[planten]

Schaick, your post was too long. I could not reply in one go. Here is part two of my reply:

**[4:88] فَمَا لَـكُمْ فِىْ الْمُنٰفِقِيْنَ فِئَتَيْنِ وَاللّٰهُ اَرْكَسَهُمْ بِمَا كَسَبُوْا‌ؕ اَتُرِيْدُوْنَ اَنْ تَهْدُوْا مَنْ اَضَلَّ اللّٰهُ‌ؕ وَمَنْ يُّضْلِلِ اللّٰهُ فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لَهٗ سَبِيْلاً‏ **

[4:88] What has happened to you that you are divided into two parties regarding the hypocrites? And Allah has overthrown them because of what they earned. Desire ye to guide him whom Allah has caused to perish? And for him whom Allah causes to perish thou shalt not find a way.​

[4:89]
**و َدُّوْا لَوْ تَكْفُرُوْنَ كَمَا كَفَرُوْا فَتَكُوْنُوْنَ سَوَآءً‌ فَلَا تَتَّخِذُوْا مِنْهُمْ اَوْلِيَآءَ حَتّٰى يُهَاجِرُوْا فِىْ سَبِيْلِ اللّٰهِ‌ؕ فَاِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَخُذُوْهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوْهُمْ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوْهُمْ‌ وَلَا تَتَّخِذُوْا مِنْهُمْ وَلِيًّا وَّلَا نَصِيْرًاۙ‏ **

[4:89] They wish that you should become a staunch disbeliever as they have been hostile disbelievers, so that you may become all alike. Take not, therefore, allies from among those (hypocrites), until they emigrate in the way of Allah. And if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and take no friend nor helper from among them;​

[4:90] اِلَّا الَّذِيْنَ يَصِلُوْنَ اِلٰى قَوْمٍۢ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُمْ مِّيْثَاقٌ اَوْ جَآءُوْكُمْ حَصِرَتْ صُدُوْرُهُمْ اَنْ يُّقَاتِلُوْكُمْ اَوْ يُقَاتِلُوْا قَوْمَهُمْ‌ؕ وَلَوْ شَآءَ اللّٰهُ لَسَلَّطَهُمْ عَلَيْكُمْ فَلَقٰتَلُوْكُمْ‌‌ۚ فَاِنِ اعْتَزَلُوْكُمْ فَلَمْ يُقَاتِلُوْكُمْ وَاَلْقَوْا اِلَيْكُمُ السَّلَمَۙ فَمَا جَعَلَ اللّٰهُ لَـكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ سَبِيْلاً‏

[4:90] Except those who are connected with a people between whom and you there is a pact, or those who come to you, while their hearts shrink from fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had so pleased, He would have given them power over you, then they would have surely fought (and killed) you. So, if they keep aloof from you and fight you not, and make you an offer of peace, then remember that Allah has allowed you no way of aggression against them.​

Isn’t it true that as a Muslim you have to believe that Sharia Law as being from allah and based on the Quran? Don’t you as a Muslim believe that Sharia law is the best Law? So really don’t you think the world would be a better place if all of it followed Sharia Law?

It is true that the law of Sharia are good and I like them. But I like those laws too which were given to the Jews (described in the torah). You people have forsaken thsoe laws or all laws.
If I like the laws of Sharia, there is no harm. I like all laws. There should be some laws, same for all people. If I like the laws of Shairia, it does not mean that I believe that I am oblige to enforce those laws in the world.

I have clear feelings (understanding) about the laws of Sharia and my understanding is different to that of the mainline Muslims. There are some political parties anxious in pakistan and Egypt (etc) to establish some kind of government with Sharia laws. I do not believe that is the way to do such things and I believe that they will not be able to do anything. Their understanding of the laws of Sharia is faulty and their approach is wrong.

So Allah will not allow them to enforce a Sharia of their own. That Sharia is not the Sharia of prophet Muhammad. It is their own man made Sharia, not fit for the present day world.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Sorry for being so dense…but what does that mean? Did I do something wrong? It’s just my opinion.

I was saying planten had shot himself in the foot when he said he admired Stalin in a thread asking if Islam is a threat.

 

[planten]

To Schaick, I agree with you that present day Muslims do believe in killing the apostates. And they believe in killing the adulterer by stoning.

Those Muslims have no real basis for such things. They are wrong on both of those counts. Nearly all believe that any one who becomes a non-Muslim should be killed. But they love the apostates of other faiths. I mean if any christian will become a Muslim, they welcome him/her. Why is that??

Personally feel that there is no order to kill any apostate of any faith. I once again say that I agree with what you had written. That is the way it is being practiced or wished to be practiced by the Muslims. That is the reason, we know that they do not understand Islam. They have made a new version of their own Islam. Most Muslims today are like the Jews of the time of Jesus. Misled.

To BW:

What is the harm if I admired Stalin. He was good while he was allied with USA and Britian. And he had good Moustache.

 

[friendship]

hi.

Islam is not a theat to christians, jews, hindus & zartoshtians.

Non-muslims lived for many years in islamic countries in middle ages. In that time, catholics was killing jews & muslims in europ.