Is Islam a threat to Christianity around the globe?

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Byzantine_Wolf said:
What are you talking about, sedonaman. That’s clearly a post made up by Catholics to tarnish planten’s name. Why, you even had someone sign on with the exact same name as planten and had him post… 😉
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I’m sure you remember this example of what transpired before [for new posters: as you read it, ask yourself if it sounds familiar]:

Originally Posted by planten.

samaan.

samaan.

samaan.

samaan.

samaan.

samaan.

samaan.
planten said:
But I do not remember any samaan. It must be some made up person to malign me now.
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sedonaman said:
We must then ask, “Who says Muhammad is the messenger of Allah?” and then who told it to that person and keep asking all the way back in time until we finally must ask who was the first person to say, “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah” ?

So, who was it? Answer: Who but Mohammed?
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Exactly, Sedonaman. I can claim to the be king of England and maybe even convince some people who don’t know who the real king of England is, but that won’t make me right.

Muhammad’s self-appointment as a messenger of God is no sort of evidence to anyone who isn’t predisposed to believe in the claims of the Qur’an. If you evaluate it like just any other book (which is all it is; it certainly isn’t “holy” in any way), then you see how on its own merits it fails. It claims to confirm what came before it, when if you read it already knowing the real scriptures you see that it doesn’t. It claims to teach the perfection of the earlier messages from God in the Hebrew and Christian Bibles, but if you actually know those messages BEFORE encountering the Qur’an, then you can only conclude that it doesn’t do that, either. The trouble is that born-Muslims never get to read the Bible first, obviously, so by the time they look at it (if they ever do; I know many would refuse to, as they are told they shouldn’t), they can only see it through the lens of the Qur’an which distorts and warps everything. This is why there are Islamic apologists who insist, for instance, that Muhammad is prophesied by name in the Bible, or that the Paraclete is Muhammad! Any Jew will tell you that the first instance is wrong (because the verse that Muslims always bring up from the OT doesn’t actually contain Muhammad’s name in it; see this thread on another forum I post at, where this claim is refuted by a Hebrew speaker! Post #9), and Christians will tell you that Muhammad cannot be the Paraclete because the Paraclete is not a human being.

And convert Muslims (at least in the USA; can’t speak for other countries) are generally African-Americans who are fed the lie that Christianity is the “white man’s religion” and to return to their “real” selves, they need to take up Islam, because that is obviously the native African religion. This does not address the fact that the Arabs who brought Islam to Africa enslaved native black Africans for centuries before any white Christian ever came to the country, and they also forced conversions of many people. Meanwhile, the only country in Africa to have NEVER been successfully colonized by any outside power is the resoundingly CHRISTIAN nation of Ethiopia, and that prior to the coming of Islam, Christianity had penetrated all levels of society in North Africa, had a centuries old Church in Egypt, Christian kingdoms in Nubia (Sudan), etc. Christianity is much, much older in Africa than it is in Europe, but the Muslims have more or less successfully convinced people to buy their own false, self-serving version of history where Christianity can only come from the outside to hurt people and rob them of their identities…as though Arab names like “Muhammad” and “Abdullah” are native to Somalia, Kenya, South Africa, Nigeria, etc. What a bunch of garbage. Who’s stolen whose identity here? Why don’t Muslims ask the Amazight (“Berber” is most likely an Arabic borrowing from Greek for “Barbarians”; obviously a pejorative and hence inappropriate!), as many of them are “reverting” back to the Christianity they had embraced before Islam came to violently suppress their cultures.

ISLAM is destruction of native people and cultures in submission to Arab supremacy through the person of Muhammad. It lies about other religions, it lies about history, it lies about everything, all to serve a LIAR (Muhammad), who is doing the work of the father of all lies.
 
staffsgt7

I totally agree with you that Islam is in many cases extremist. And on the majority of the things that you have said regarding Israel, the stuff that goes on in Islamic Madrasah’s and on the ideological leanings of Islam as a whole. I no little abut Islamic organisations in america so i can;t honestly comment there.

As to referencing converts from Islam, id personally agree with them regarding the extremist tendencies of Islam. But id also mistrustor at leasquestion things they say about worshipping Muhammad and the Black Rock as its these sorts of areas where converts who leave because Islam is in many cases abusive, may exxagerate their claims. This i say coming from listening to many ex-catholics saying we worship Saints and Mary.

I called you ill-informed, as to saying that muslims worship Muhammad, which was the original point of our discussion. This I disagree with you with, which is why i called you ill-informed in this paricular area. I totally agree with you when you say that Islam as a whole has a dangerously militant ideology.

However the original point of the discussion was whether muslims worship Muhammad. I think they don’t, you do. The evidence I have seen indicates that they have an unhealthy veneration of the man, but not to the extent of worshipping him.
 
planten said:
A lot of misinformation (or disinformation) is purposely being spread against islam in this thread. It is being told that Muslims are guilty of Shirk, by kissing the black stone at Ka’abah. Islam in Shirk is no threat to Christianity. So the Islam bashing is off topic too.

I would like to know, since when is kissing some one (or some thing) a case of Shirk?. the christians are kissing their wives. Are they committing Shirk?? The case of Shirk is associating any one with the God almighty which we see clearly amongst the Catholics.

The Jews and the Muslims keep far away from Shirk. Associating any one with God is strictly forbidden. But christians have got many Lords. They give much importance to the apostles as if they were Gods. Not only is Jesus their great Lord and God but his followers too. They have entered their words (books) into the bible. That is Shirk.

Now about the name of Muhammad in the Kalimah. It is necessary. When one says “There is no god but Allah.” any one can ask “who told that?” Then it is necessary to tell the name of the prophet. That “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.”

The second part of the Kalimah is as important as the first part. It means that Muhammad is a mere messenger of Allah and he has brought the message “There is no god but Allah.”. The name of Muhammad is essential in telling the source of the imporatnt message.

It was same with the christians too.Jesus told them to preach in the name of the Father and the son (and the holy ghost) in Mathew. Just look at the name of the Father (God) and the son (The messenger of God, Jesus).It is exactly the same thing as in Islam. The two (God and messenger ) are there in the bible.

Jesus told the followers the right thing, to preach in the name of the father and the son and the holy ghost. i.e. God and the messenger and the holy spirit. But the christians made the son and the holy ghost into gods. Is that not Shirk?? It is a great shirk and a great sin.

I had to write all that to make it clear to you that your accusations of Islam are not correct.You yourself are actually involved in Shirk. If there is only One God then why do you talk about three (gods). Then you have to run back to One god too. Trinity is a Shirk and Shirk will never be forgiven by God.

I know you will get very upset. But you should also not write the bad things about islam too. We Muslims have the right to clear up all your accusations and to point your defects to you.

The name of Muhammad in the Kalimah ( There is no God except Allah and Muhammad is a messenger of Allah) is very important. It says that Muhammad is not god. he is a messenger of God. If it was not there, the Muslims may have made Muhammad a god like did the christians. It stops us from making a god of Muhammad. It stops us from Shirk (paganism).
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First off, thanks for showing that Mohammed, (or Allah) have no idea what Christians believe regarding the trinity, for the five millionth time.

Second, Muslims accuse Christians of Shirk when they venerate saints. Therefore if you are claiming to simply venerate Mohammed and the Kaba, then you are admitting that you are guilty of shirk. You can’t have it both ways, either we are not guilty of shirk or you are.
 
Nine_Two: There was no need to discuss Shirk on this thread. Since you brought it up (see your post below), we had to show you your Shirk.
From Nine_Two:
Depends. The Muslim are certainly guilty of their own concept of Shirk, which they equate with worship, both towards Mohammed and the Kaba. I remember seeing Mohammeds hair (I think it was facial hair) venerated as we would venerate a saint when I was in Konya
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You have your Trinity. If it is not Shirk then what it is?? Ask the Muslim world. Ask the Jews.

For sedonaman:

saman may be a shadow who diappeared too quickly. I cannot keep track of some one who appeared for a short time. People come and go. The same abusive Catholics come under different names. It is best to forget them.

You are bringing out some very old matters. Better show the highly abusive posts of those bad days, intended against Muhammad too Do not show just one side of the story. There are catholics here who want to bash Islam. There are others who are more fair minded who do not intend any harm to Islam.

For Nine_Two again: What the Muslims are doing may not be good and may not be a good example of Islamic way of life (Deen). You blamed Muslims of Shirk. I know the Muslims are much off the real track. But surely they are not Mushrik. They do not worship Muhammad or the black stone of Ka’abah. There are some bad practices amongst Muslims and those are anti-islamic. That is admitted.

But you are guilty of Shirk by raising the ranks of a mere innocent man (Jesus) to that of God. Making a God out of a man is clear Shirk and you admit doing that.

Shall I tell you the Muslim view of your fault?? You have raised the status of a person (Jesus) to more than what he was. The Jews lowered his status. You have raised it. That is what the Muslims believe. One of you is the Maghdhoob (Jews) and the other (christians) are the Dhaaleen (gone astray after getting good guidance).

You are still sticking to your belief that Muslims are Mushrik. I have given you another dose of what you needed most.
 
And that takes us back to the subject of the thread. Islam is a threat to Christianity because of the way it twists every fact. It refuses logical discourse and instead relies on a faulty book to tell it what to believe about others, not matter how often you explain it to them.
 
I am praying for the Christians here who have strength to carry on…and dialogue with others…
 
I have to agree with Nine-two on this one.

Muslims, you included Planten, appear to hold Christians to another standard then the one you hold to yourselves. Muslims here and muslims i have talked with elsewhere almost ubiquitously ignore logical discussion and totally disregard the christian viewpoint. You need to hold christianity to the same standard that you hold to discussion regarding Islam.
 
staffsgt7 said:
Another reason for taking subjects that a person isn’t particularly interested in is to exercise the brain. Use it or lose it. Could it be that the young people are more frustrated with their own lives because they learn no useful trade to raise themselves up and use every excuse they can think of to be Jihadists so they can hopefully die and get a free pass into their heaven? I think so. They blame the West, they blame the Jews, they blame everyone else for their own failures.

I don’t see that same exercising of the brain in Islamic countries where hours upon hours of Koranic study is the only thing that the kids learn. If a kid is poor in memorization but would have been good in science, math or literature that avenue is not open to that kid. They learn the Koran in a language not their own so most don’t know the trash that is in it.

I don’t discount that there are a lot of Muslims who are very intelligent but will never get the opportunity to be anything other than useless robots.

Take a look at the difference of what over a billion people have produced vs what a few million have produced between 1980 and 2000. Remember that those few million have to keep on defending themselves against the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians and Hezbollah so are not totally free to pursue intellectual pursuits at times.

Now wouldn’t it be grand that over a billion people would wake up and realize that killing and being killed, persecuting and hating others just because they are not Muslims is a total waste of time? All those billions just wasting away in some perverted mind thought. We could be reaching the far corners of outer space, creating ways to help humans have a better quality of life, or curing diseases and making our planet a good place for both human beings and animals. Instead they are held down by some perverted prophet and his idea of an Allah that is just wrong.
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In many ways, what you highlight is the difference between Western civilization with a foundation built upon Christianity and a vastly different civilization that hasn’t progressed much since the time of Muhammad except during periods of Westernization.
 
KathleenGee said:
I am praying for the Christians here who have strength to carry on…and dialogue with others…
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Sounds like pacifist peace making verbage…rather than Catholic…which would encourage the faithful to pray for the conversion of those that are against the Catholic Church. I was a Quaker for many years and know your language…of keep in dialogue. I say keep in prayer and watch out for those who push you in to thinking staying in touch verbally is what it is all about. Read Catherine of Sienna regarding this. Your goal is world peace. If you think you are so smooth with dialogue that you can overcome the ones against what you believe in…I will pray for you and hope you are right. God bless you.
 
No Jewells,

I am not. I have already read the Dialogues of St. Catherine of Siena…she is my patron saint.

What is concerning me is that I have an increasing impression that people come here to CAF because they are being agitated by their leaders… the Catholic Church is false, or Christianity is false, and they come in here to prove we are wrong or simply agitate and start fights.

There are those who have sincere questions, or want to communicate their differences…

But I am disturbed by extreme fundamentalists with an ax to grind or the Muslims who refuse to acknowledge that they are outside our culture and our salvation history. They have a blindness that cannot grasp that no matter what, they are invalidating our faith and verifiable documents of Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, and the objective purpose of having witnesses.

For me, it is a matter of using my time for those want to learn. I used to do parish census and go out into neighborhoods a few years back. I met a Muslim woman and began to share with her the commandments, and Jesus Christ…she told me she had gone to a Catholic Mass and always noticed how Christians were so happy. I left her with a holy card of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and our personal prayer to him.

So many months later, I went back and saw her again, and she came up and embraced me and said she now understands how we believe.

That is the kind of Muslims I wish to share my time with…or open fundamentalists or atheists or agnostics or Jewish people…genuine relationships, open learning, and not allowing myself to be put into a cycle of repetitious deliberate and cyclic misunderstandings, no matter how hard you try to share with them the truth of our faith.

I have learned things about Islam, but I do not think they have learned anything objective from us. I am thinking it is better to work for Christian unity, to come together in the Our Father, the psalms, and prayer intentions and to protect one another…and to refortify our country…and to pray for the restoration of Christianity in Europe.

So I am praying alot now…and praying to work for unity our country…but in Christ. We need a tremendous spiritual revival, put away our divisions, and not use the Bible to cause further divisions…the Sacred and Eternal Word of God,…that should give us life and contemplation and not be used as a tool to further divide us.

As far as the Muslims go, there is another world out there…what is good for Islam is good for Muslims. We are nothing to them as Christians.
 
sedonaman said:
We must then ask, “Who says Muhammad is the messenger of Allah?” and then who told it to that person and keep asking all the way back in time until we finally must ask who was the first person to say, “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah” ?

So, who was it? Answer: Who but Mohammed?
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sedonaman, you have raised quite an interesting (off topic) question, about who told Muhammad that he was the messenger of Allah. Of course it was Allah who told him that through the agency of an angel. That question is answered.

Now we must seriously try to understand: Who told Jesus that he was the son of God?? Did his **mother **tell him?? Please think over that line too and make us wise about your beliefs. Thanks. A good or the best correct answer is needed from you, supported by your bibleNT.

You have raised this subject. I do not mind if all christians here try to help sedonaman in this matter of " Who told Jesus that he was the son of God?? Did he make it (took it) up himself?? Please tell.
 
Peace be with you KathleenGee.🙂

We need an authentic dialogue and authentic ecumenism to those who are ready to listen. To those that aren;t we should shake the dust off our feet and move on.
 
planten said:
sedonaman, you have raised quite an interesting (off topic) question, about who told Muhammad that he was the messenger of Allah. Of course it was Allah who told him that through the agency of an angel. That question is answered.

Now we must seriously try to understand: Who told Jesus that he was the son of God?? Did his **mother **tell him?? Please think over that line too and make us wise about your beliefs. Thanks. A good or the best correct answer is needed from you, supported by your bibleNT.

You have raised this subject. I do not mind if all christians here try to help sedonaman in this matter of " Who told Jesus that he was the son of God?? Did he make it (took it) up himself?? Please tell.
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Jesus IS GOD so no one had to “tell” Him, but God revealed Him as His Son at both His Baptism (Matthew 3:13-17 and Mark 1:9-11 and Luke 3:21-22 and John 1:32-34) and at His Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8 and Mark 9:1-8). These events were witnessed by many people including John the Baptist and Jesus’ Apostles.

Now, please provide proof outside the Quran that Muhammad is a messenger of God. Your above statement that Allah told him through the angel does not help, because who else, besides Muhammad, witnessed this supposed revelation from the angel? If my boss comes to me and says the Angel Gabriel appeared to him and revealed that he is a messenger of God, but his message contradicts scripture, should I believe him? By the way he is very trustworthy in business, a very honest man - not known to lie.
 
Jay53 said:
Jesus IS GOD so no one had to “tell” Him, but God revealed Him as His Son at both His Baptism (Matthew 3:13-17 and Mark 1:9-11 and Luke 3:21-22 and John 1:32-34) and at His Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8 and Mark 9:1-8). These events were witnessed by many people including John the Baptist and Jesus’ Apostles.

Now, please provide proof outside the Quran that Muhammad is a messenger of God. Your above statement that Allah told him through the angel does not help, because who else, besides Muhammad, witnessed this supposed revelation from the angel? If my boss comes to me and says the Angel Gabriel appeared to him and revealed that he is a messenger of God, but his message contradicts scripture, should I believe him? By the way he is very trustworthy in business, a very honest man - not known to lie.
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I recently posted this on a similar thread. I don’t think it can be said any more succinctly. Political correctness does us no service.

To me the argument is simple.

The Angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would have the Son of the Most High. That Jesus would be His Name and that he would save the world from their sins. Gabriel told Mary that Jesus…the baby she would have…is God Incarnate. The Word made flesh.

**Then 600 years later…the same angel gabriel told mohammed that Jesus isn’t God. Now…who has the most to gain from the denial of Jesus? It’s clear. Satan! That is who mohammad’s gabriel was. Satan…a wolf dressed in sheep’s clothing. Look at how many people have been lead astray. Look at how many souls lost. **
 
spn82756 said:
I recently posted this on a similar thread. I don’t think it can be said any more succinctly. Political correctness does us no service.

To me the argument is simple.

The Angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would have the Son of the Most High. That Jesus would be His Name and that he would save the world from their sins. Gabriel told Mary that Jesus…the baby she would have…is God Incarnate. The Word made flesh.

**Then 600 years later…the same angel gabriel told mohammed that Jesus isn’t God. Now…who has the most to gain from the denial of Jesus? It’s clear. Satan! That is who mohammad’s gabriel was. Satan…a wolf dressed in sheep’s clothing. Look at how many people have been lead astray. Look at how many souls lost. **
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I agree that the angel was NOT the Angel Gabriel. Sometimes I wonder how much culpability Khadija and her cousin have in all of this because if I remember correctly, they are ones that suggest to Muhammad that it was the Angel Gabriel that appeared to him. Muhammad himself didn’t know and was terrified until he went home and talked to his wife and her cousin. 🤷 (Possible flashback of Adam and Eve where Eve is tricked by the servant and leads Adam astray. Perhaps Khadija was also tricked and led Muhammad astray. :hmmm: )
 
I’d rather say Jesus Christ is a major threat to Islam, because He is the Truth and He wins over darkness.
Even Muslims need love, forgiveness etc.
so when they get tired of war they come to the Father who restores them to their true humanity which they lost while toiling as slaves for their allah, under a useless law in order to justify themselves.

I post a video from Ramallah, to see what Islamists do to their opponents… a far cry from
human rights.
youtube.com/watch?v=h7r370iY26E&NR=1

Jesus will come soon, and then the slavery of the Muslims will be over as they see the lies of the devil as it is.
I hope Christianity will wake up and spread the Gospel to these neighbours of ours who are in so much need for people to show them and tell them to what Love they are called.
 
I am at the first step: Work for a common faith in America. Pray for the restoration of Christianity in Europe.

But if we are attacked, yes we must fight back…I am praying we will not come to that in our world.
 
(Also, I was on a secular site, Newsvine…and it became apparent in time of being very anti-Christian…

But the biggest scourge on our country was racism against Afro Americans…

Guess who did that??? A Christian denomination.

A Christian denomination in America brought about and perpetuated the worst scourge of our country, a label we will never be able to live down.

I don’t want to define the faith source. Most Americans know it, and also know there are many more of the same denomination who are not like these people.

The website is very anti-Catholic. So, I stay away from the source of America’s Greatest Scourge. And the secularists say it is Christianity.

It is demonic in my mind considering what was done to the Africans in the name of God.)

The greatest vice in America was brought about by a deviant form of Christianity and it has labelled alot of us.

Now we are dealing with being the biggest promoters of sex and violence in the world via the Coliseum of your local theater. We not only need to restore our country in the Lord, but also our dignity as human beings.
 
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