is islam anti-woman

[captainmike]

for a long time, i have had a hard time understanding why a woman would choose to become a muslim. after all, muslim women have to dress too modestly, and their husbands can beat them and have mistresses and/or multiple wives.

and then this thought occurred to me: but at least muslim women get to have children–and usually lots of them.

to a large extent, western (non-muslim) women don’t have many (if any) children. rather, we live in a society in which women are supposed to focus on career first and, if there is time, family later. in too many cases, the “later” never comes. since women have a God-given urge to have children, they have to resent this, even if only subconsciously.

maybe this explains in part why a woman would choose to be a muslim.

 

[Ali_Khan]

Mike,

You pose an interesting question, although it seems to me that you have gotten a wrong idea about what Islam says a woman’s role and status is.

First off, husbands CANNOT have mistresses. They can have a maximum of four wives, but no mistresses. Adultery in Islam is punished by death. So a man who cheats on his wife could actually be executed for that (if caught, of course).

And of course, Islam also requires that a man treat all of his wives equally (so no such thing as a ‘favorite wife’). Most Muslim men today, and even throughout history, have had only one wife.

Yes, Islam commands the woman to obey her husband (as does every other religious text out there), but it also commands the man to protect and provide for his wife.

I do believe that women have a God-given urge to produce children, just like us men have a God-given urge to father children

If this urge to reproduce was not in the human race, then we would all be extinct, wouldn’t we? This is why Islam encourages marriage. Sex is encouraged and even considered a good deed within the context of marriage, but explicitly forbidden outside of wedlock.

As for men being allowed to ‘beat’ their wife - yes, this is allowed according to the Quran BUT only as a last resort. The Prophet Muhammad discouraged wife-beating and he himself never beat his wives.
It is also forbidden to beat anyone (wife, child, friend, or whoever) with such force as to cause real physical damage, permanent injury, or to leave a mark/bruise.
It is also forbidden to strike anyone (including your wife) on the face.

I don’t understand how a Catholic could see Muslim women dressing up as ‘too modestly’. Don’t nuns cover up as much as Muslim women?

In short, Islam is no more ‘anti-woman’ than any other religion out there.

 

[Fayle]

As for men being allowed to ‘beat’ their wife - yes, this is allowed according to the Quran BUT only as a last resort.

What behavior would you consider to warrant a beating?

 

[Ali_Khan]

What behavior would you consider to warrant a beating?

The Quran itself is a little vague here. The words (at least in the translation I recall) are ‘if you fear disobedience from your wives’.

The word for disobedience in some translations has been translated as ‘rebelliousness’ and in some cases ‘infidelity’.

Since beating is only a last resort, I guess the behavior would be stubborn refusal on the part of the wife to obey her husband even after he admonishes her and refuses to have sex with her. Ideally, the wife should obey the husband as is her duty, so this situation should ideally not arise.

Note, that a wife can only obey her husband as long as he doesn’t order her to do something contradictory to Islam. So if a husband tells his wife to worship gods other than Allah, the wife can (should) refuse and cannot be beaten.

 

[Tocra]

for a long time, i have had a hard time understanding why a woman would choose to become a muslim. after all, muslim women have to dress too modestly, and their husbands can beat them and have mistresses and/or multiple wives.

and then this thought occurred to me: but at least muslim women get to have children–and usually lots of them.

to a large extent, western (non-muslim) women don’t have many (if any) children. rather, we live in a society in which women are supposed to focus on career first and, if there is time, family later. in too many cases, the “later” never comes. since women have a God-given urge to have children, they have to resent this, even if only subconsciously.

maybe this explains in part why a woman would choose to be a muslim.

The ONLY reason why islam is still around today is because the vast majority of muslims were not given a choice at birth on whether they wish to embrace islam. Their parents are also forced by the islamic community to force the religion upon their children. Their environment prohibits challenging the teachings of the religion and nothing that questions the validity of islam is allowed. In short, they are stuck in a rut and the destructive forces repeat themselves over and over throughout their generations.

**If **there is ABSOLUTE religious freedom in islamic communities (starting with the removal of the syariah), you can be sure MANY people would not choose islam.

This is true as evidenced by a quite recent attempt - an exodus of muslims out from islam in an asian country called Malaysia where over 250,000 born-muslims applied for the islamic religion to be removed from their Identity cards.

Expectedly, the islamic community came down hard on the government which comprises mainly of muslim leaders and the whole episode came to an abrupt stop.

**If the world is to save humanity, then the islamic imams & religious leaders must be prevented from forcing the religion down people’s throats. And that begins with the removal of the syariah laws in otherwise civilised secular societies.
**

There’s no point in winning a physical war (eg. against Iraq or Afganistan) and then you leave them to re-produce the same community of problems that resulted in all these terrorism & threats. You must inject new knowledge & understanding & free everyone of them from the clutches of flawed religious bondage. Otherwise, 100 years down the road, things are not going to get better, then new wars will be fought…in harsher conditions & greater carnage.

.

 

[Ali_Khan]

The ONLY reason why islam is still around today is because muslims were not given a choice at birth on whether they wish to embrace islam. Their parents are also forced by the islamic community to force the religion upon their children.

Then explain why millions convert to Islam, not just in the West, but even here in India.

And then explain why the Christian Middle East, Zoroastrian Persia, the shamanistic Turks and Mongols, the Hindu Bengalis and West Indians, and Indonesians, and several other peoples all converted to Islam and became predominantly Muslim societies over the course of a few centuries.
(Hint: it does NOT have to do with Islam being spread by the sword, because it wasn’t)

If there is ABSOLUTE religious freedom in islamic communities (starting with the removal of the syariah), you can be sure MANY people would not choose islam.

There is religious freedom in India, Kosovo, Albania, Bosnia, and Turkey (to a certain extent in Turkey). None of these nations follow the Shariah.
And yet all the Muslim societies in these nations remain Muslim.
Turkey is almost 100% Muslim. Bosnia, Kosovo, and Albania are majority Muslim nations. And the Indian Muslim community remains as large and is growing rapidly.

The Indian government, for example, cannot execute a Muslim convert to Buddhism, or vice versa.
Yet millions in India convert to Islam, and very few leave Islam.
Your argument is very, very flawed.

 

[Tocra]

=Ali Khan;6730620]Then explain why millions convert to Islam, not just in the West, but even here in India.

And then explain why the Christian Middle East, Zoroastrian Persia, the shamanistic Turks and Mongols, the Hindu Bengalis and West Indians, and Indonesians, and several other peoples all converted to Islam and became predominantly Muslim societies over the course of a few centuries.
(Hint: it does NOT have to do with Islam being spread by the sword, because it wasn’t)

Hint: Its got ALOT to do with islamic propaganda on TV and how people are prohibited from watching non-islamic shows on TV in their homes. Try doing christian shows at the same pace & frequency in these societies. . When people are snuffed out from the truth, they can only embrace the other side.

There is religious freedom in India, Kosovo, Albania, Bosnia, and Turkey (to a certain extent in Turkey). None of these nations follow the Shariah. And yet all the Muslim societies in these nations remain Muslim.
Turkey is almost 100% Muslim. Bosnia, Kosovo, and Albania are majority Muslim nations. And the Indian Muslim community remains as large and is growing rapidly.

The Indian government, for example, cannot execute a Muslim convert to Buddhism, or vice versa. Yet millions in India convert to Islam, and very few leave Islam.
Your argument is very, very flawed.

I have spent a good many years in some of these countries you have mentioned. And there’s really one common characteristics between them besides India (still, not all parts of India cos some regions are still reclusive). **Poor communication & free media outreach. **

**The growth of a religion is measured by the number of NEW ADULT consenting converts, not by ignorant infant anointing & procreation. The latter is not growth, its more of an infestation.

I measure by true & free numbers, not captured converts. Limiting & prohibiting the voice of someone else other than your own while you ‘educate’ your children is not considered religious freedom. Its pre-determining the fate of your children.

Notice I used the word “ABSOLUTE” ?

**

 

[Tocra]

Ali Khan,

Try this.

Don’t make your new born a muslim. Let him/her grow up as a teenage learning perfectly secular knowledge & free information on all religions - islam, hindhuism, christianity, buddhism etc.

We may not know exactly what the child will pick when he/she is of age, but confidently - The last thing your child will ever pick is islam.

.

 

[seraphime2008]

Then explain why millions convert to Islam, not just in the West, but even here in India.

And then explain why the Christian Middle East, Zoroastrian Persia, the shamanistic Turks and Mongols, the Hindu Bengalis and West Indians, and Indonesians, and several other peoples all converted to Islam and became predominantly Muslim societies over the course of a few centuries.
(Hint: it does NOT have to do with Islam being spread by the sword, because it wasn’t)

I don’t think that the whole story of peaceful conversion to Islam in Indonesia can be regarded as objective truth. There are many instances in the history of Indonesia revealing that many Muslim historic figure made war or oppression towards the native Hindus through their alliance with some rulers of ancient Kingdom in Indonesia, whom had been lured with profits. That also explains why there was a big exodus from the island of Java to Bali and that’s why Bali has maintained its identity as Hindu and how the native Balinese feel resentment towards the Javanese or muslims generally. BTW, I’m Indonesian, I know this thing.

There is religious freedom in India, Kosovo, Albania, Bosnia, and Turkey (to a certain extent in Turkey). None of these nations follow the Shariah.
And yet all the Muslim societies in these nations remain Muslim.
Turkey is almost 100% Muslim. Bosnia, Kosovo, and Albania are majority Muslim nations. And the Indian Muslim community remains as large and is growing rapidly.

The Indian government, for example, cannot execute a Muslim convert to Buddhism, or vice versa.
Yet millions in India convert to Islam, and very few leave Islam.
Your argument is very, very flawed.

Your proof? Any coverage about this?

 

[seraphime2008]

The Quran itself is a little vague here. The words (at least in the translation I recall) are ‘if you fear disobedience from your wives’.

The word for disobedience in some translations has been translated as ‘rebelliousness’ and in some cases ‘infidelity’.

Since beating is only a last resort, I guess the behavior would be stubborn refusal on the part of the wife to obey her husband even after he admonishes her and refuses to have sex with her. Ideally, the wife should obey the husband as is her duty, so this situation should ideally not arise.

Note, that a wife can only obey her husband as long as he doesn’t order her to do something contradictory to Islam. So if a husband tells his wife to worship gods other than Allah, the wife can (should) refuse and cannot be beaten.

I still cannot understand that beating could also bring the wife to finally freely submit to any of the husband’s request, that can only make the woman feel more rebellious in one hand or even in secular countries like in Indonesia, bring the man to jail for the case of “domestic violance”! Btw,I’ve read that the Arabic word of beating in the Koranic verses is not some term that can be regarded as “soft beating”. It’s just regular beating as you can say when you intend to beat someone.

 

[Ali_Khan]

Hint: Its got ALOT to do with islamic propaganda on TV and how people are prohibited from watching non-islamic shows on TV in their homes. Try doing christian shows at the same pace & frequency in these societies. . When people are snuffed out from the truth, they can only embrace the other side.

I ask you to explain why MILLIONS are converting to Islam in the West and all you give me is ‘Islamic propaganda on TV’?
Are you insane?
Since when is there Islamic propaganda on TV in the West?
I’ve lived in the US for more than half my life - I have never ONCE seen Islamic propaganda on public TV or cable TV, but I HAVE seen a lot of Church channels and evangelical channels that serve as Protestant Christian propaganda

And the Middle East, which was predominantly Christian, converted to Islam during the early Middle Ages, when TV or radio or newspapers or public education or any other form of public indoctrination/mass media did not exist.
In fact, the rulers DISCOURAGED conversion to Islam because then their subjects would not have to pay the jizya tax.
Yet they still did. And now, the entire Middle East is virtually entirely Muslim.

The fact of the matter is, most Muslims today are descended from converts to Islam who accepted Islam voluntarily. Most Christians today, however, are descended from from pagan Europeans or Native Americans who were forced to convert to Catholicism.

Don’t make your new born a muslim. Let him/her grow up as a teenage learning perfectly secular knowledge & free information on all religions - islam, hindhuism, christianity, buddhism etc.

We may not know exactly what the child will pick when he/she is of age, but confidently - The last thing your child will ever pick is islam.

The fact that millions are converting to Islam in the West and the fact that I personally know over 50 converts to Islam in the US, in just one city, who were raised in either atheistic or Christian backgrounds, disproves your crazed ideas.

Tocra, PLEASE either read a history book or retake World History in high school.

 

[seraphime2008]

As for men being allowed to ‘beat’ their wife - yes, this is allowed according to the Quran BUT only as a last resort. The Prophet Muhammad discouraged wife-beating and he himself never beat his wives.
.

I believe that there’s a report on the Hadits telling that Aisha felt pain on her chest due to Muhammad beating her…or if not beating, some sort of physical assault…

 

[vera_dicere]

I have a friend who converted from a life of secular debauchery to Islam.

From what I understand of her opinions and the opinions of other convert stories I’ve seen and heard, women are seeking something meaningful. The West is all about lust and as much as you can have, its about lack of morals and general secularism, it treats people as objects, especially in a sexual context. My friend went to Islam because she felt empty in the Western lifestyle of excess.

She didn’t, however, look at any of the Christian faiths, she said she thought about it, but decided that given the publicity about Islam (she converted in late 2002) she wanted to know more, especially about the anti-woman stuff. She came to find that Islam was quite pro-woman, as was her opinion. She even wears the whole burka type dress thing, but didn’t cover her face.

Of course, I can’t say much else about her as I haven’t seen or heard from her since '06, she met some guy in her Mosque, married and moved to Pakistan. I ran into her sister last time I was back in our home town, and none of her family have heard from her. Mind you, that was quite usual for her, to be completely lax in contacts with friends and family.

So yeah, perhaps women convert to Islam because they inwardly think that the strict moral codes are more fulfilling than the empty lust and materlistic life we have in the West. Kind of how apparently there are more and more young women heading into the stricter Catholic convents.

 

[Ali_Khan]

I don’t think that the whole story of peaceful conversion to Islam in Indonesia can be regarded as objective truth. There are many instances in the history of Indonesia revealing that many Muslim historic figure made war or oppression towards the native Hindus through their alliance with some rulers of ancient Kingdom in Indonesia, whom had been lured with profits. That also explains why there was a big exodus from the island of Java to Bali and that’s why Bali has maintained its identity as Hindu and how the native Balinese feel resentment towards the Javanese or muslims generally. BTW, I’m Indonesian, I know this thing.

You really ought to elaborate as to WHAT you are talking about? Most of us are not experts in Indonesian history
And please cite a book (or AT LEAST wikipedia if it has proper citations). You being Indonesian does not qualify you to make sweeping generalizations on Indonesian history.

Your proof? Any coverage about this?

You want PROOF and coverage that Kosovo, Bosnia, India, etc. are secular countries?
:banghead:

Or do you want proof that these (with the exception of India) are all Muslim majority nations?
Again :banghead:

The CIA World Factbook is there for a reason. CNN is there for a reason.

Or are you saying that millions of Muslims in India did NOT convert to Islam?
Then explain why there are 160 million Muslims in India right now. They didn’t just pop out from the ground, you know.
Btw, in 2001, there were 138 million Muslims in India:

censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/India_at_glance/religion.aspx

I still cannot understand that beating could also bring the wife to finally freely submit to any of the husband’s request, that can only make the woman feel more rebellious in one hand or even in secular countries like in Indonesia, bring the man to jail for the case of “domestic violance”! Btw,I’ve read that the Arabic word of beating in the Koranic verses is not some term that can be regarded as “soft beating”. It’s just regular beating as you can say when you intend to beat someone.

Yes, the word used in the Quran is not ‘beat softly’ but ‘beat’.
However, the Hadith clarify this - the Prophet says what constitutes beating or not. And according to what he specified, the ‘beating’ mentioned in the Quran is very mild.
Also, even the Bible says for the woman to submit to her husband.
So I don’t see why you, a Catholic of all people, is making such a big fuss over a woman submitting to her husband.
An atheist I could understand, but a Christian?

I believe that there’s a report on the Hadits telling that Aisha felt pain on her chest due to Muhammad beating her…or if not beating, some sort of physical assault

Quote the Hadith and where you got it from. Otherwise please don’t randomly post things about the Prophet on simple hearsay.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just saying that you need to provide proof

 

[Tocra]

I ask you to explain why MILLIONS are converting to Islam in the West and all you give me is ‘Islamic propaganda on TV’?
Are you insane?
Since when is there Islamic propaganda on TV in the West?
I’ve lived in the US for more than half my life - I have never ONCE seen Islamic propaganda on public TV or cable TV, but I HAVE seen a lot of Church channels and evangelical channels that serve as Protestant Christian propaganda

Did you mention US amongst those countries? You didn’t
Did I mention US amongst those countries? I didn’t.

So…why do you bring up US NOW to make your point? Notice how you jumped right out of the premise of the argument??? Stick to the argument, don’t deviate. We are talking about THOSE countries. Or should I bring in China for you?

And the Middle East, which was predominantly Christian, converted to Islam during the early Middle Ages, when TV or radio or newspapers or public education or any other form of public indoctrination/mass media did not exist.
In fact, the rulers DISCOURAGED conversion to Islam because then their subjects would not have to pay the jizya tax.
Yet they still did. And now, the entire Middle East is virtually entirely Muslim.

Trust me…Anything that unilaterally prohibits freedom is evil. Its not just the TV or media propaganda, in those days, the rule of the game was different, it was massacre & violence and threatening death. Again, you jumped right OUT of the premise to argue your point.

The fact of the matter is, most Muslims today are descended from converts to Islam who accepted Islam voluntarily. Most Christians today, however, are descended from from pagan Europeans or Native Americans who were forced to convert to Catholicism.

Fact is it seems you are not able to hold down an argument and frequently skips track in your anxiety to prove yourself right. I do not dispute that some christians are also forced, but comparatively speaking, Islam is way ahead of the league. For every 1 christian forced, there are 10,000 muslims forced.

The fact that millions are converting to Islam in the West and the fact that I personally know over 50 converts to Islam in the US, in just one city, who were raised in either atheistic or Christian backgrounds, disproves your crazed ideas.

50 converts in one city is nothing spectacular you know? Do you not know that hundreds of people die from falling accidents every year in almost every country? There will always be people who are blind & fall. If there are people who can fall & die physically, there will be people who will fall & die spiritually. By the way… Thousands are leaving islam if you’re not aware of this yet.

Tocra, PLEASE either read a history book or retake World History in high school.

I will if it’ll help you to start learning to discuss logically & coherently.

 

[Ali_Khan]

Did you mention US amongst those countries? You didn’t
Did I mention US amongst those countries? I didn’t.

So…why do you bring up US NOW to make your point? Notice how you jumped right out of the premise of the argument??? Stick to the argument, don’t deviate. We are talking about THOSE countries. Or should I bring in China for you?

Way to prove to the world that you lack the ability to read.

Look at post #6, the one you replied to. I wrote:

Then explain why millions convert to Islam, not just in the West, but even here in India.

The US is a part of the West.

Trust me…Anything that unilaterally prohibits freedom is evil. Its not just the TV or media propaganda, in those days, the rule of the game was different, it was massacre & violence and threatening death. Again, you jumped right OUT of the premise to argue your point.

Anything that unilaterally prohibits freedom is evil?
You mean kind of like how the Church prohibited the freedom of religion and speech in Europe for hundreds of years? Or how the Church prohibited the publishing of any scientific research that contradicted the Bible for hundreds of years? Galileo anyone?

Massacre? Violence? Threatening death?
Are you honestly implying that Muslims forced Christians to convert to Islam when the conquered the Middle East?
You are so historically off base I don’t even know where to start.
Virtually ALL historians agree that Islam as a religion was NOT spread by the sword in the Middle East, North Africa, or Anatolia. The Islamic Empire WAS, but NOT the faith.
Even in the Islamic Empire, conquered peoples were not encouraged to convert to Islam by their Islamic rulers.
And I know this from majoring in History in college and reading history textbooks, not listening to some fundamentalist highschool dropout Christian preacher.

Fact is it seems you are not able to hold down an argument and frequently skips track in your anxiety to prove yourself right. I do not dispute that some christians are also forced, but comparatively speaking, Islam is way ahead of the league. For every 1 christian forced, there are 10,000 muslims forced.

Prove these statistics. Oh that’s right, you can’t. Just keep pulling random **** off the top of your empty head, am I right?

Let’s see who the Christians forced to convert to Christianity:
The Native Americans (after they were done killing 'em)
The Muslims in Spain
The Jews in Spain
The Pagan Baltics
The Pagan Eastern Europeans
The Pagan Germans
The Muslims in the Levant during the Crusades
and the list goes on and on…

Heard about the Inquisition? Do you even know what that was about?
And don’t try to argue that Catholicism =/= Christianity. At that time, the only Church in Europe WAS the Catholic Church.

It’s hilarious how someone who follows a religion with the most violent history ever (Christianity) is judging other religions to be violent.
If Christianity hadn’t forced others to become Christian, most of Europe and all of the Americas would have remained non-Christian.

 

[seraphime2008]

You really ought to elaborate as to WHAT you are talking about? Most of us are not experts in Indonesian history
And please cite a book (or AT LEAST wikipedia if it has proper citations). You being Indonesian does not qualify you to make sweeping generalizations on Indonesian history.

Facts are facts that the island of Bali is known to be the island of Hindu, whose ancestries goes back to the history of the people who lost the battle done by muslim in Java and every Indonesian knows it very well. I don’t have to quote any Wiki for the blaring facts that are shown as part of the history here…

You want PROOF and coverage that Kosovo, Bosnia, India, etc. are secular countries?
:banghead:

Or do you want proof that these (with the exception of India) are all Muslim majority nations?
Again :banghead:

The CIA World Factbook is there for a reason. CNN is there for a reason.

Or are you saying that millions of Muslims in India did NOT convert to Islam?
Then explain why there are 160 million Muslims in India right now. They didn’t just pop out from the ground, you know.
Btw, in 2001, there were 138 million Muslims in India:

censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/India_at_glance/religion.aspx

I’m sorry that you have to repeat banging your head on the wall, I was only referring to your comment saying that millions of Hindus converted to Islam in India, this needs proof. As for your saying that in India there were previously only 138 millions muslims, compared to now 160 millions, is it really due to conversion or due to high rate of birth?
Perhaps we also have to compare it with the total number of people in India to see that this shows trends of conversion…Saying that there are currently millions of muslims in India to proof that they were peaceful conversion is just illogical irrelevant to the history of India having been conquered by Islamic force sometime in the past.

Yes, the word used in the Quran is not ‘beat softly’ but ‘beat’.
However, the Hadith clarify this - the Prophet says what constitutes beating or not. And according to what he specified, the ‘beating’ mentioned in the Quran is very mild.
Also, even the Bible says for the woman to submit to her husband.
So I don’t see why you, a Catholic of all people, is making such a big fuss over a woman submitting to her husband.
An atheist I could understand, but a Christian?

Yes, but beating is just beating. What kind of beating is needed to make women submit to men’s desire? I don’t think any man would think that it’s kind of mild beating to get approval. What’s the purpose? Unless perhaps it’s also implicitly said beating infront of people to get the women feel humiliated? As for woman to obey husband in Chrisitian teaching is of course should be seen in the context of holy marriage where husband love and treat his wife as he treated himself, so of course there’s no such prescription like beating!!! I don’t think that beating would ever be a solution for any disagreement.

Quote the Hadith and where you got it from. Otherwise please don’t randomly post things about the Prophet on simple hearsay.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just saying that you need to provide proof

Ok…I have to take time to find it. But any member here who are more skillful and more familiar with this hadits could lend me a hand. I’m very sure that the hadits exist…

 

[Tocra]

Way to prove to the world that you lack the ability to read.

Look at post #6, the one you replied to. I wrote:

The US is a part of the West.

Anything that unilaterally prohibits freedom is evil?
You mean kind of like how the Church prohibited the freedom of religion and speech in Europe for hundreds of years? Or how the Church prohibited the publishing of any scientific research that contradicted the Bible for hundreds of years? Galileo anyone?

Massacre? Violence? Threatening death?
Are you honestly implying that Muslims forced Christians to convert to Islam when the conquered the Middle East?
You are so historically off base I don’t even know where to start.
Virtually ALL historians agree that Islam as a religion was NOT spread by the sword in the Middle East, North Africa, or Anatolia. The Islamic Empire WAS, but NOT the faith.
Even in the Islamic Empire, conquered peoples were not encouraged to convert to Islam by their Islamic rulers.
And I know this from majoring in History in college and reading history textbooks, not listening to some fundamentalist highschool dropout Christian preacher.

Prove these statistics. Oh that’s right, you can’t. Just keep pulling random **** off the top of your empty head, am I right?

Let’s see who the Christians forced to convert to Christianity:
The Native Americans (after they were done killing 'em)
The Muslims in Spain
The Jews in Spain
The Pagan Baltics
The Pagan Eastern Europeans
The Pagan Germans
The Muslims in the Levant during the Crusades
and the list goes on and on…

Heard about the Inquisition? Do you even know what that was about?
And don’t try to argue that Catholicism =/= Christianity. At that time, the only Church in Europe WAS the Catholic Church.

It’s hilarious how someone who follows a religion with the most violent history ever (Christianity) is judging other religions to be violent.
If Christianity hadn’t forced others to become Christian, most of Europe and all of the Americas would have remained non-Christian.

Careful…I see you going into a verbal fit there. Perhaps you should calm down and start thinking coherently & logically before replying to me. I’m very particular about details & facts. So you really need to back up your accusations there before I can even take your post as valid.

 

[Tocra]

Ok…I have to take time to find it. But any member here who are more skillful and more familiar with this hadits could lend me a hand. I’m very sure that the hadits exist…

Here it is:

Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, “He struck me on the chest which caused me pain.”

 

[seraphime2008]

Here it is:

Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, “He struck me on the chest which caused me pain.”

Thank you Tocra…