is islam anti-woman

[Ali_Khan]

Wow. Way to take things out of context, guys.

Here is the FULL Hadith:

Muslim 4:2127

Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was ‘A’isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi’. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O ‘A’isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi’ (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.

Here’s the link
usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/004.smt.html
It’s all the way at the bottom - Hadith #2127

Look at the situation and what actually happened. She snuck out and followed him at night and ran back - when she lied about the whole thing, he struck her on the chest and told her that she should not have been afraid of her own husband (and a Prophet of God too, at that).
It wasn’t a ‘beating’. It was something done to make her reflect.
And if you have ever been to Saudi Arabia, you would know that Arabs have a tendency to do exactly this. Strike another on the chest to make one reflect or if one forgets something - it happened to me when I was discussing theology with an Imam once

And look at what Muhammad is doing here in the first place - he is sacrificing his sleep to go out alone into the night into a graveyard and beg Allah to have mercy on the dead.

 

[seraphime2008]

so Muhammad had never beaten his wives, just struck one of them in the chest painfully…ha…ha…I would never let anybody who disagree with me to struck me in any part of my body, gosh…that will be awful!

And why in the first place that Aisha should wonder about where Muhammad had been wandering? Seems that she got certain distrust over her husband… Sorry

 

[Ali_Khan]

And why in the first place that Aisha should wonder about where Muhammad had been wandering? Seems that she got certain distrust over her husband… Sorry

Unlikely. If you read more of the authentic Hadith, you would find that Aisha loved him dearly and trusted him.
As did his companions, daughters, wives, and the soldiers who fought alongside him.
Making huge assumptions based on one Hadith when there are thousands that say otherwise is not smart.

And if you notice, he actually went out in the middle of the night to pray to Allah alone and to beg forgiveness for the dead. That’s more than I say can for any of us here.

 

[seraphime2008]

Unlikely. If you read more of the authentic Hadith, you would find that Aisha loved him dearly and trusted him.
As did his companions, daughters, wives, and the soldiers who fought alongside him.
Making huge assumptions based on one Hadith when there are thousands that say otherwise is not smart.

And if you notice, he actually went out in the middle of the night to pray to Allah alone and to beg forgiveness for the dead. That’s more than I say can for any of us here.

Why did Muhammad had to act as if he was sniffing that there was someone stalked on him? That narration was really hilarious you know…! And as I understand it, there were so many instances that made Aisha felt that she was treated not equally by Muhammad that she said in reported hadits that whatever Muhammad wishes had been granted automatically by Allah even the thing that seemed odds to her …

Forgive me, I don’t really think that what Muhammad had claimed to be doing can be regarded as the real truth because only he knew what he really had done.

 

[Fayle]

The Quran itself is a little vague here. The words (at least in the translation I recall) are ‘if you fear disobedience from your wives’.

The word for disobedience in some translations has been translated as ‘rebelliousness’ and in some cases ‘infidelity’.

Since beating is only a last resort, I guess the behavior would be stubborn refusal on the part of the wife to obey her husband even after he admonishes her and refuses to have sex with her. Ideally, the wife should obey the husband as is her duty, so this situation should ideally not arise.

Note, that a wife can only obey her husband as long as he doesn’t order her to do something contradictory to Islam. So if a husband tells his wife to worship gods other than Allah, the wife can (should) refuse and cannot be beaten.

That’s horrible

 

[Ali_Khan]

Why did Muhammad had to act as if he was sniffing that there was someone stalked on him? That narration was really hilarious you know…!.

Maybe because someone WAS stalking him? She followed him out into the graveyard, remember?

And as I understand it, there were so many instances that made Aisha felt that she was treated not equally by Muhammad that she said in reported hadits that whatever Muhammad wishes had been granted automatically by Allah even the thing that seemed odds to her .

You understand incorrectly then, because Muslims don’t assume anything on simple hearsay, we require authentic Hadiths. So as far as I am concerned for now, you are either making this up or are relaying something you only heard.
Please post the authentic Hadith with link before making more sweeping generalizations.

Forgive me, I don’t really think that what Muhammad had claimed to be doing can be regarded as the real truth because only he knew what he really had done.

If you’re referring to this Hadith, then you are incorrect again.
Read the Hadith again - Aisha sees him in the graveyard with her own eyes, standing there for a long time and then lifting his hands and praying.
Muhammad later tells her that he was begging Allah to have mercy on the buried dead.

 

[wwolverine]

Mike,

I don’t understand how a Catholic could see Muslim women dressing up as ‘too modestly’. Don’t nuns cover up as much as Muslim women?

In short, Islam is no more ‘anti-woman’ than any other religion out there.

Why is it that when comparisions are done, its always the NUNS? What do the muslims know o NUNS?

When ever the dress code comes in question, muslims always compare their women to the NUns, which I find quite funny.

 

[bosnian_muslim]

I don’t think that the whole story of peaceful conversion to Islam in Indonesia can be regarded as objective truth. There are many instances in the history of Indonesia revealing that many Muslim historic figure made war or oppression towards the native Hindus through their alliance with some rulers of ancient Kingdom in Indonesia, whom had been lured with profits. That also explains why there was a big exodus from the island of Java to Bali and that’s why Bali has maintained its identity as Hindu and how the native Balinese feel resentment towards the Javanese or muslims generally. BTW, I’m Indonesian, I know this thing.

Your proof? Any coverage about this?

i am from Bosnia and there we have catholics,orthodox christians and muslims.I have not yet met a muslim converting to catholicism or orthodoxism…but in my neighbourhood i know 5 converts to islam(former catholics),and we even have famous people converting

Islam is the fastest growing religion,and its enough to write in google fastetst growing religion and you will find the answer islam

 

[bosnian_muslim]

Why is it that when comparisions are done, its always the NUNS? What do the muslims know o NUNS?

When ever the dress code comes in question, muslims always compare their women to the NUns, which I find quite funny.

Ok leave the nuns,how did virgin Mary dress? look up on the top of this site,a woman and her child…do i see a muslim woman,or?

 

[Ali_Khan]

Why is it that when comparisions are done, its always the NUNS?

When ever the dress code comes in question, muslims always compare their women to the NUns, which I find quite funny.
Reply With Quote

1. The Muslim dress code for women DOES resemble the dress code for nuns very much. Saying that’s not true is like saying Coke tastes VERY different from Pepsi.
2. It’s not just the nuns, Muslim women compare themselves to. It’s also the women of ancient Judaism, as well as the Virgin Mary (who is almost always depicted as having her head covered with a veil).
3. The reason we have to ‘compare’ in the first place is because a large part of the condemnation of Muslim dress for women as ‘barbaric’ is coming from Catholics, who already have a tradition of nuns going way back. It’s a way of pointing out that you guys ALSO have the same dress code for one of your female institutions, so calling it backward and barbaric is pointless.

What do the muslims know o NUNS?

We know they tend to dress like Muslim women, or vice versa

 

[scipio337]

Way to prove to the world that you lack the ability to read.

Look at post #6, the one you replied to. I wrote:

The US is a part of the West.

Anything that unilaterally prohibits freedom is evil?
You mean kind of like how the Church prohibited the freedom of religion and speech in Europe for hundreds of years? Or how the Church prohibited the publishing of any scientific research that contradicted the Bible for hundreds of years? Galileo anyone?

Massacre? Violence? Threatening death?
Are you honestly implying that Muslims forced Christians to convert to Islam when the conquered the Middle East?
You are so historically off base I don’t even know where to start.
Virtually ALL historians agree that Islam as a religion was NOT spread by the sword in the Middle East, North Africa, or Anatolia. The Islamic Empire WAS, but NOT the faith.
Even in the Islamic Empire, conquered peoples were not encouraged to convert to Islam by their Islamic rulers.
And I know this from majoring in History in college and reading history textbooks, not listening to some fundamentalist highschool dropout Christian preacher.

Prove these statistics. Oh that’s right, you can’t. Just keep pulling random **** off the top of your empty head, am I right?

Let’s see who the Christians forced to convert to Christianity:
The Native Americans (after they were done killing 'em)
The Muslims in Spain
The Jews in Spain
The Pagan Baltics
The Pagan Eastern Europeans
The Pagan Germans
The Muslims in the Levant during the Crusades
and the list goes on and on…

Heard about the Inquisition? Do you even know what that was about?
And don’t try to argue that Catholicism =/= Christianity. At that time, the only Church in Europe WAS the Catholic Church.

It’s hilarious how someone who follows a religion with the most violent history ever (Christianity) is judging other religions to be violent.
If Christianity hadn’t forced others to become Christian, most of Europe and all of the Americas would have remained non-Christian.

Islam, via Shari’a, encouraged conversion in the conquered lands by giving Jews and Christians 2nd class citizen status, and heavily favor Muslims over non. The rules of inheritance alone would tend to pressure non Muslims to convert. See “Pact of Umar”. Also, don’t more than a few hadiths outline offering “polytheists” the options of conversion, jizya, or death?

Janissaries weren’t forced conversions?

The Inquisition was a REaction to 600 years of Muslim rule in Spain. No conquest of Spain by Muslims = no Inquisition.

If you could quote any of those “ALL historians agree that Islam as a religion was NOT spread by the sword in the Middle East, North Africa, or Anatolia” you mention, it would add to your argument.

I find the whole “conversion” and “growth” arguments to be red herrings. Can you list any majority Muslim countries where apostacy from Islam isn’t a crime (capital crime, in many)?

Falun Gong is the world’s fastest growing religion, but that does not give credence to any of its beliefs.

 

[Ali_Khan]

Islam, via Shari’a, encouraged conversion in the conquered lands by giving Jews and Christians 2nd class citizen status, and heavily favor Muslims over non. The rules of inheritance alone would tend to pressure non Muslims to convert. See “Pact of Umar”. Also, don’t more than a few hadiths outline offering “polytheists” the options of conversion, jizya, or death?

Non-believers could live peaceably as long as they paid the ‘jizya’. The jizya, was a special tax imposed on non-Muslims, since they were exempt from the Zakat tax (which was only for Muslims) as well as military service.

They may have had less rights than Muslims in some matters, but the fact is that a so-called 2nd class non-Muslim citizen in medieval Baghdad was MUCH better off, financially, culturally, and freedom-wise, than a Christian living in Christian Europe.

If you’re telling me that all the non-Muslims converted from Christianity to Islam simply because they would be treated a little bit better, then that doesn’t say much about Christianity or how deeply these Christians believed in it, does it?

Janissaries weren’t forced conversions?

Janisarries were individual boys who were conscripted by the Ottomans, converted to Islam, and made musketeers for the army.
While definitely an example of forced conversion, it does not even begin to compare to things like the forced conversion of large parts of Eastern Europe and Northern Germania (see the Teutonic Knights), or things like forced conversion of the Native Americans by the Catholic conquistadors and their follow-up colonizers (c’mon now, that’s more than an entire CONTINENT).
You’re honestly gonna sit there and compare all that with things like Janissaries???

The Inquisition was a REaction to 600 years of Muslim rule in Spain. No conquest of Spain by Muslims = no Inquisition.

I’m sorry, but anyone who can justify the atrocities carried about the inquisition is just sick - there’s no other way to put it. Have you read about how they used to torture confessions out of innocent people, only to burn them alive in public?
Say what you will about Islam, but we have NEVER regressed that far in the realm of human decency.
The inquisition was one of the most shameful and disgusting periods in human history. You should be condemning it not just as a Christian but as a HUMAN BEING.

And let’s not forget, the 800 years of Muslim rule (with the exception of the fanatical Almohade interlude) in Spain were marked with religious tolerance for Christians and Jews that was UNMATCHED anywhere in Catholic Europe. So please, research before you speak.

Compare the treatment of Jews in Muslim Spain to the treatment of Jews in Catholic Spain or Catholic Europe. It’s not even comparable - it was THAT bad.

If you could quote any of those “ALL historians agree that Islam as a religion was NOT spread by the sword in the Middle East, North Africa, or Anatolia” you mention, it would add to your argument.

You could start with the people who wrote the textbooks that are being used for Middle Eastern History classes all over colleges in America. Textbooks which I read in college.
James L. Gelvin
William L. Cleveland

And then there are others:
R. Joseph Hoffman
Thomas Carlyle
De Lacy O’Leary
and many many more…

Our professor in Middle Eastern history (who is Jewish), actually devoted an entire lecture on debunking the myth that Islam was spread by the sword.

I find the whole “conversion” and “growth” arguments to be red herrings. Can you list any majority Muslim countries where apostacy from Islam isn’t a crime (capital crime, in many)?

I already did in the thread but I guess you weren’t reading.
But I will repeat some of them again: Bosnia, Kosovo, Turkey, Albania, to name some.
I think Indonesia too, but I will have to check.

 

[scipio337]

It seems to me, Ali, that you are all too willing to use the “Tu Quoque” argument, in regards to these atrocities, and to minimalize the oppression which is DOCTRINAL in Islam, as opposed to EPISODIC in the history of Christianity.

Do you support the Dhimmitude status for Christians and Jews, as proscribed in the Qu’ran, and the historical practice?

Do you support the death penalty for converts of Islam, under any circumstances (public or private)?

The argument I propose is that yes, the Islamic EMPIRE was spread by the sword, but the application of Shar’ia could be seen as a type of “forced” conversion.

In my mind, treating any human being differently, whether legally, or otherwise, due to their faith, is reprehensible. There have been cases in Christianity, but agiain, this is not something DOCTRINAL, whereas, it may be viewed as such in Islam.

 

[KathleenGee]

India perhaps paid the greatest price of bloodshed to become Muslim. Sikhs were put in barrels of boiling oil…an old man in this past 40 years saw the Muslims come in to force conversion on his village…those resisting were hiding in a hut…his daughter, very pretty, was chosen first…she went up and had to kneel before them…One took out his sword and sliced head off…then others were told to come up…whop, whop, whop…

Now I am reading yesterday that the Catholic priest who was murdered by his Turkish driver had his head cut off. My girlfriend has worked in Turkey many years and is not allowed to even mention Christianity or any words pertaining to it in her letters.

In the 1500’s, the Bosnian Serb resistance fighters were impaled with a sword going down through their mouths and out the back end and then staked on a road. In 2005, I saw a video of Muslims in Kosovo fearlessly running across the roof a large orthodox church, climbing onto the Cross and swinging it back and forth until it finally broke and was tossed to the ground, with the the Muslim males down below applauding and whistling.

A son of a leader of Hamas says that no matter the outward appearance and claims, militant Islam will implode within itself in 10 years.

I do not oppose normal living Muslims. Because they also see good Christians. I met a Muslim woman who came out to speak to me in this inner city neighborhood. I was surprised to hear she was not living closer in community. Her husband is in Somali and she has a daughter with her. She has been in America for 17 years. She commented that I was ‘covered’ and looked nice. I spoke to her about my concerns and she said those Muslims who believe that way are wrong and her community of Muslims know it is wrong. I gave her a holy card of the Sacred Heart of Jesus to show her how we personally relate to Jesus.

She said she has gone to a Catholic church with an African priest…she said of what she has seen of Christians is happiness…our inner happiness and freedom and she knows that people who dress profanely are not Christians…but the Muslims don’t. That is scary. And the same Muslims always misinterpret Scripture. They don’t understand it. So they can judge and place all Westerners in one bucket and call it Christian…and then some day use it to whop whop whop.

I saw her another time…she came out and put her arms around me and said she now understand how we believe in Jesus and it is OK.

 

[Monotheist]

In the 1500’s, the Bosnian Serb resistance fighters were impaled with a sword going down through their mouths and out the back end and then staked on a road. In 2005, I saw a video of Muslims in Kosovo fearlessly running across the roof a large orthodox church, climbing onto the Cross and swinging it back and forth until it finally broke and was tossed to the ground, with the the Muslim males down below applauding and whistling.

You should also mention thousands of destroyed mosques in Bosnia and Kosovo

If there were forced conversion then why isnt India 100% islamic,and why arent the Balkans 100% muslim,why isnt Greece 100% muslim? muslim rulers didnt practice forced conversion thats why you find christians in former islamic “colonies”,why you cant do that in christians ruled countries…where are the muslims and jews of Spain?

 

[00Sherman]

As a Catholic i Admire the Muslim faith. There modesty provides a good template for preventing adultery and sexual degradation. Is that to say all Muslims are perfect, no, but that when a society has established boundary’s on things of this nature it makes things much easier for someone like me who is an 18 year old male with a strong sex drive and the ability to attract females. We do not marry young enough in the west, we are irresponsible, and self centered in thought and action on to many levels to make such a choice or even see the value in it as a society.

The idea that a man could beat his wife and be protected or even encouraged under god seems crazy to people in the west, yet we have domestic violence, and i doubt our own reasons for doing this are anywhere near as good as those other men. We would beat a wife out of anger, never touching on ideology or WHY we are doing it.

I wish to travel to India to learn about these people.

 

[Ali_Khan]

It seems to me, Ali, that you are all too willing to use the “Tu Quoque” argument, in regards to these atrocities, and to minimalize the oppression which is DOCTRINAL in Islam, as opposed to EPISODIC in the history of Christianity.

Episodic as opposed to doctrinal? So the inquisition, Crusades, subjugation of Eastern Europe, etc. wasn’t doctrinal? Even though the Papacy supported it and so did virtually the entire Catholic clergy?

Do you support the Dhimmitude status for Christians and Jews, as proscribed in the Qu’ran, and the historical practice?

Only as described by the Quran and Sunnah and only in an Islamic state which truly follows all aspects of the Shariah.

The argument I propose is that yes, the Islamic EMPIRE was spread by the sword, but the application of Shar’ia could be seen as a type of “forced” conversion.

Not if you truly understood what the Shariah is. Asking non-Muslims to pay a small token tax in exchange for exemption from conscription is hardly ‘forced’ conversion.
Need I remind you that Christian Mideasterners were subjected to a MUCH LOWER tax during the Muslim rule then they were during Orthodox Byzantine rule?
It’s almost as if you’re explaining the conversion of an entire Christian region and the birthplace of Christianity on the basis of a small tax. Too scared to consider the truth?

In my mind, treating any human being differently, whether legally, or otherwise, due to their faith, is reprehensible. There have been cases in Christianity, but agiain, this is not something DOCTRINAL, whereas, it may be viewed as such in Islam.

Wasn’t Jesus the one who (according to your NT) claimed that you will know a tree by its fruits?
Well, if he was telling the truth, then I guess your ‘it was never doctrinal’ argument doesn’t work.
Because if the followers (fruit) of Christianity have committed more violence and more forced conversions than basically the rest of the world’s religions combined, that makes me feel quite scared of the tree.
So claiming it wasn’t doctrine won’t help you here.

India perhaps paid the greatest price of bloodshed to become Muslim. Sikhs were put in barrels of boiling oil…an old man in this past 40 years saw the Muslims come in to force conversion on his village…those resisting were hiding in a hut…his daughter, very pretty, was chosen first…she went up and had to kneel before them…One took out his sword and sliced head off…then others were told to come up…whop, whop, whop…

Incidents like this happen in India ALL the time. It’s called ethnic identification. Muslims in India see themselves as one ethnic group. As do the Hindus. And the Jains. And the Christians. And so and so forth.

When religious violence happens in India, everyone knows that ‘religious’ violence is basically ethnic violence.

Anyone who’s read the Quran or the Prophet’s life will know that the actions you mentioned are no way justified by Islam.

 

[KathleenGee]

Monotheist, btw we are also Monotheist.

And the first issue is that Muslims are not able to grasp Christian thought…and there are many Muslims who want to convert but cannot because they could face death. There are those who have already been killed on the East coast in the United States and it is very shocking.

The war in Bosnia was so brutal…we learned about the Spanish while in high school…how the victim becomes like the abuser…Spain was overrun by the Moors for 700 years, plundered, raping…and when they came in, the Spanish were forced into dhimmitude…same with the Christians and Jews in the Holy Land…and the Jews in those times had to wear a sign to ID them. Muslims are outraged when Mohammed was shown in picture, and espcially by cartoonists. The Spanish Catholics in those times suffered the sacrileges when Jews and Muslims would go into church, receive the Body and Blood without faith. That is far worse than looking at a cartoon…

But where is your reciprocity? Muslims demand respect for their religion…we deserve the same…another issue I have besides that claims to knowing Christianity but misunderstanding it all the time…I see it here…and the stereotyping of non Christians with Christianity and wanting to go to war to kill us.

In Bosnia, there was the Muslim child tax…the first or brightest son forced out of the Christian home to become a Muslim soldier.

There were 4 German Christians who were brutally slaughtered in Turkey…

It is the slaughter, the incomprehension of Christianity and the stereotyping…Once Islam takes hold of a country, the people cannot get out of it.

I believe the only truth a Christian can relate to in Islam is Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

I basically have the same values of woman as a Muslim in that I do not like immodest dress or multiple partners…but when it comes to multiple sex partners…wives if you want to call them that, are the same…sin outside of marriage to one woman.

The Christian morality of marriage is the best anywhere.

I would recommend Muslims read John Paul II’s book on ‘The Theology of the Body’.

Young Catholics are reading it and it is doing great work in helping them get past the bondage of secular atheist power that is controlling so much of value of man and woman and sexuality in the West.

I truly think now that Muslims would do themselves a great favor to read ‘The Theology of the Body’ and be ahead of alot of Catholics who haven’t time read it yet…myself included.

Also Muslims should note that there are ancient Catholic/Orthodox practices of praying a number of times a day…we have had the Angelus prayed at noon and this custom needs to be restored…it is the frantic pace of modern life that is not good and many of us want out.

But Mary is the bridge between Islam and Christianity…and the restoration of all women. Muslims can learn alot about the value of woman from the teachings of the Catholic Church, and John Paul II wrote on ‘Mater Redemptoris’, Mother of Redemption on Mary and her work in restoring the dignity of woman.

 

[scipio337]

Episodic as opposed to doctrinal? So the inquisition, Crusades, subjugation of Eastern Europe, etc. wasn’t doctrinal? Even though the Papacy supported it and so did virtually the entire Catholic clergy?

No, and as I pointed out before, the Inquisition (particularly the Spanish), AND the Crusades were all the results of Islamic military expansion. It is a simple fact that if there was no Muslim conquest of Spain, or the Levant, neither would have happened.

Which isn’t to say I support either, but again, you’ve bought into revisionist history in these cases.
Ali Khan:

Only as described by the Quran and Sunnah and only in an Islamic state which truly follows all aspects of the Shariah.

That’s discrimination, and not from God.
Ali Khan:

Not if you truly understood what the Shariah is. Asking non-Muslims to pay a small token tax in exchange for exemption from conscription is hardly ‘forced’ conversion.
Need I remind you that Christian Mideasterners were subjected to a MUCH LOWER tax during the Muslim rule then they were during Orthodox Byzantine rule?
It’s almost as if you’re explaining the conversion of an entire Christian region and the birthplace of Christianity on the basis of a small tax. Too scared to consider the truth?

It is still DOCTRINAL discrimination.

Too scared to consider that bare fact?
Ali Khan:

Wasn’t Jesus the one who (according to your NT) claimed that you will know a tree by its fruits?
Well, if he was telling the truth, then I guess your ‘it was never doctrinal’ argument doesn’t work.
Because if the followers (fruit) of Christianity have committed more violence and more forced conversions than basically the rest of the world’s religions combined, that makes me feel quite scared of the tree.
So claiming it wasn’t doctrine won’t help you here.

And what are the fruits, today? How do human rights stack up in the Muslim world? When was the last Christian war, fought over faith? How many of the current world’s conflicts involve Muslims?

I don’t think that is a path you want to go down. Besides, we are talking about aspects of DOCTRINE, right??

 

[KathleenGee]

I read a timeline on Muslim aggression and going back to Islam’s inception…there must have been wars every 3 to 4 years by Muslims…we have had a break for about 100 years…the last was the genocide committed by the Young Turks that took the lives of 1.5 million Armenian Christians, the heads of their leaders displayed like trophies…this happening in the early 1900’s…and our government’s complicity to not face it…

And there is the Muslim headed slave trade of Africa and the enslavement of white European women…

There is a long, long history of enslavement…and they always take the pretty women…

There is a long and systematic denial of any wrong doing by Muslims. The more people read historical facts, the more they know Islam is a political/religious entity whose inspirations is not of the same God we know. I believe that humane and reciprocating and mutually respecting Muslims have a true religion. What I oppose is the type that is being drawn on here.

It is our Christian duty to expose wrong, so it can be brought to the light and corrected…

The Christian concept and teachings of marriage and the value of woman are the best.