Is Israel Commited to Peace?

[FightingFat]

Heard about the new building going on in the occupied West Bank?

Israel’s Prime Minister Ariel Sharon last week authorized the construction of 3,500 new homes in the occupied West Bank to secure “Greater Jerusalem”, the Yedioth Ahronoth daily reported.

The plan to build two new neighborhoods connecting the Jewish settlement of Maaleh Adumim to Arab East Jerusalem is against the so-called roadmap peace plan, which demands Israel to suspend settlement-building on land it seized in the 1967 Middle East war and which the Palestinians want for their future state.

But the U.S. President George W. Bush said last year that Israel, which plans to withdraw from the occupied Gaza Strip this year, could keep some settlements in the West Bank under an agreement.

Government officials confirmed the newspaper’s report but didn’t confirm the number of homes.

One source said that the figure would be in the “low thousands”, adding that Sharon also approved the building of a road to bypass the area and connect the Palestinian-ruled towns to the north and south of Jerusalem, Ramallah and Bethlehem.

“The prime minister is thinking ahead, to giving the Palestinians territorial contiguity,” the source said.

Also an official from Sharon’s office said; “We will continue to build Maale Adumin, Gush Etzion and Ariel, because these areas will never be transferred to the Palestinian Authority,”

Gush Etzion is in southern Jerusalem and the town of Ariel lies in the northern West Bank.
The move prompted a Palestinian warning that the peace process is at risk. Palestinian officials accused Israel of poor faith in peacemaking efforts.
“By expanding settlements in the West Bank, Israel gives the impression that it intends to exchange Gaza for a ‘Greater Israel’,” said Palestinian Planning Minister Ghassan al-Khatib.

“Israel is responsible for any consequences resulting from this continuous violation of the road map,” he said. “I don’t think the Palestinian leadership and people can tolerate this.”

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas reached a ceasefire agreement with Sharon last month, under which Israel agreed to hand over five West Bank cities to the Palestinians.

Last week, Israel handed over the first city, Jericho, but some setbacks in security arrangements delayed the transfer of the second city, Tulkarm, which was expected Monday, officials said.

What is going on? Doesn’t this constitute a blatent disregard for the peace process? Why is Sharon doing this???

 

[catholica]

I think Israel is more committed to survival than they are to Peace.

 

[Matt25]

catholica:

I think Israel is more committed to survival than they are to Peace.

Israel cannot survive without peace. A permanent state of war will one day produce a victor. As things stand when US support for Israel ends, as one day it must nothing on earth is forever except the Church, then Israel will end. To avoid its own destruction Israel must must must find a way to live in peace and friendship with its Arab neighbours now while it can.

 

[vern_humphrey]

It has been pointed out that Israel wants three things, and can have only two:

1. To be a democracy.
2. To be a Jewish state.
3. To control the all land between the Jordan and the sea.
   They can control all the land between the Jordan and the sea, but to remain Jewish, they will have to keep the Muslims in subjugation – because within a generation or two the Muslims will outnumber the Jews.

 

[FightingFat]

**Israel maintains a “strangulation” policy in the Gaza Strip, which remains a “big prison” for Palestinians living under occupation, Israeli human rights groups said in a new report released on Tuesday.
**

The report, titled “One Big Prison and prepared by B’Tselem and HaMoked, states Israel’s violations of human rights and international laws in the Gaza Strip.

It said that Israeli travel restrictions to and from Gaza remain tough despite the truce declared between Israeli and Palestinian leaders last month.

Restrictions on trade also increased poverty in Gaza, the report said.

B’Tselem said that most aspects of the “strangulation” policy are illegal according to both Israeli and international laws, and stressed that Israel’s right to self-defense does not allow it to violate the human rights of the Palestinians.

**“Sweeping criteria” **

All Israeli restrictions on Palestinian freedom of movement to and from the Gaza Strip are imposed using “sweeping criteria” and without checking individual cases, the report said.

“In most cases, where the authorities deny a permit, and a lawyer or human rights organization later intervenes, the authorities reverse their decision. This fact clearly indicated that most of the rejections are made arbitrarily,” it said.

The right groups also said that Israel sealed Gaza off from the outside world. “It is easier for Palestinians in Israel or the West Bank to visit relatives in prison than visit a relative in Gaza,” the report said.

The report also cites cases of Palestinians who have been expelled from the West Bank to Gaza, saying that Israel’s policies separate many Palestinians from their families and splits up married couples.

**“Deep poverty” **

The report showed that Israel’s economic siege on the Gaza Strip made 77 percent pf Gaza residents, more than one million Palestinians, live below the poverty line.

It added that at least 300,000 Palestinians (23 percent of Gaza’s population) now live in “deep poverty, meaning that they do not reach the subsistence poverty line after receiving aid from international agencies".

 

[IsaacSheen]

vern humphrey:

It has been pointed out that Israel wants three things, and can have only two:

1. To be a democracy.
2. To be a Jewish state.
3. To control the all land between the Jordan and the sea.

I probably don’t have the facts/knowledge to back-up what I am about to say. I think Israel can have all three of those things, and probably should. I think that giving up the land they are giving up is the wrong thing to do. When you give in to a bully, it only makes him want more.

Furthermore, I’m sure Israel has done some things wrong, but considering the circumstances, (i.e. nearly everyone in the world being their enemy) I think they’ve done the best they can.

Listening to people talk recently, including my friends, really makes me wonder. Many people really don’t like Israel. When you ask why…they don’t have an answer besides the usual:
“I know what Jews are really like”.

Lastly, maybe those poeple in Gaza should move somewhere else. If I’m not mistaken, isn’t that where many of the suicide bombers are coming from? Which is probably why Israel put that area in lockdown. Reading the article, I fail to see how they are directly violating human rights. How does:

1.) Restricting trade

2.) “Sweeping criteria”

violate human rights? I can easily see how those would be security measures. The history of why things are the way they are really enlightens a person to make decisions on all these things. I know I’ve spoken in general terms, I can elaborate upon request. (I just woke up too, so please, bear with my not-fully-functioning mind).

 

[gilliam]

Matt25:

Israel cannot survive without peace. A permanent state of war will one day produce a victor. As things stand when US support for Israel ends, as one day it must nothing on earth is forever except the Church, then Israel will end. To avoid its own destruction Israel must must must find a way to live in peace and friendship with its Arab neighbours now while it can.

agreed

 

[Richardols]

IsaacSheen:

When you give in to a bully, it only makes him want more.

The bully? The 800-lb gorilla in the scenario is Israel, not the Palestinians, who are being heavily repressed by Israel.

Furthermore, I’m sure Israel has done some things wrong,

I’ll nominate your statement for the 2005 International Understatement of the Year Contest.

but considering the circumstances, (i.e. nearly everyone in the world being their enemy) I think they’ve done the best they can.

There are many Israelis who wouldn’t agree with this assessment.

Many people really don’t like Israel.

Yes. My wife’s cousins, e.g., who are American Jews, don’t like Israel - they don’t like the attitude of imperialism too prevalent in its governments.

 

[Lance]

More so than the Palestinians, who are commited to the distruction of Israel.

 

[Richardols]

Lance:

More so than the Palestinians, who are commited to the distruction of Israel.

No doubt that there are those factions on both sides who would be perfectly happy to see the other side disappear from the face of the earth any way they can arrange it.

 

[IsaacSheen]

Richardols:

Yes. My wife’s cousins, e.g., who are American Jews, don’t like Israel - they don’t like the attitude of imperialism too prevalent in its governments.

Did your wife’s cousins grow up in Israel? Have they ever lived in Israel long enough to understand what is going on there?

 

[Lance]

IsaacSheen:

Did your wife’s cousins grow up in Israel? Have they ever lived in Israel long enough to understand what is going on there?

Isaac,
You can not win whith Richardols, he will never give you a straight answer and will bait you just to upset you. Ignore him. That’s what I do.

 

[Richardols]

IsaacSheen:

Did your wife’s cousins grow up in Israel? Have they ever lived in Israel long enough to understand what is going on there?

No. They are American-born, somewhat Orthodox Jews who live in Brooklyn, N.Y. They have visited Israel, but only as tourists.

But one doesn’t have to live in a country to gain a good appreciation of its politics and to gain some insight into its people. I’ve never been to North Korea and I have a pretty good idea of what it’s like, and I’ve never visited Ireland, yet I have a decent sense of what it and its people are like.

 

[IsaacSheen]

Lance,

Thanks for the tip. It’s ok though, I’m honestly curious about where he is coming from and I’m not too worried about him baiting me.

Richardols,

Do your American born cousins feel any fear about Palestinians blowing them or their children up on a daily basis?

I do agree that you can appreciate the conditions these people are in, but I feel that myself and yourself can never understand.

With North Korea, you might have a good idea of what it’s like but until you have government employees, who just happen to be your family, busting into your living space, dragging you out, imprisoning you and then starving you to death while beating you everyday, I don’t think you or myself can even come close to “understanding”.

Ireland is the same thing.

Most of us don’t even have a good enough sense of our own country, let alone another one.

Just a thought.

 

[Richardols]

IsaacSheen:

Do your American born cousins feel any fear about Palestinians blowing them or their children up on a daily basis?

I think it unlikely. But, they also don’t have to fear the Israelis coming and closing roads and keeping them from going to work or school either or bulldozing their homes because some bomb-thrower lived upstairs from them either…

Most of us don’t even have a good enough sense of our own country, let alone another one.

Agreed. But, if you’re suggesting that we “should walk a mile in their shoes,” we’d have to do it both in Israeli and Palestinian shoes. IMO, anyway.

 

[Lance]

Isaac,
Well said. My son in law is a Maronite from Lebanon and he grew up during the civil war there. He said there is no way to describe the fear you have when you don’t even feel safe in you own bed. I can tell you I never knew what real fear was until I had someone shove a gun into my face and tell me to open the cash drawer. Poverty and lack of power are no excuse for becoming a terrorist.

 

[Matt25]

I think that giving up the land they are giving up is the wrong thing to do. When you give in to a bully, it only makes him want more.

The Israeli’s are currently occupying land that was once almost wholly occupied exclusively by Palestinians. If the Palestinian people were to follow your advice here then they would demand that the Jews leave the whole of modern Israel, as indeed they used to do. Motivated however by greater generosity of spirit than you the majority of Palestinians have accepted that the pre-1967 borders of Israel constitute a legitimate Jewish state provided only that a Palestinian state can be created in the West Bank, the Gaza strip and East Jerusalem.

You might be right about bullies demanding more though since Israel is now making a land grap in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem while making a hullabaloo about pulling some seven thousand illegal settlers out of their illegal settlements in the Gaza strip. It is this kind of thing that makes a handful of Palestinians fall into the deceptive sin of despair and become suicide bombers. There is no excuse for such bombings but equally these bombings provide no excuse for the Israeli’s to steal other peoles land.

BTW The Holy Roman See has a clear position on this question
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/s...eg-st_20031018_sodano-xxv-pontificate_en.html
. By way of summary, the position of the Holy See can be synthesized into the following points: 1) U.N. resolutions are to be respected, and in particular the well-known 242nd resolution of 22 November 1967, regarding the withdrawal of Israel “from occupied territories”;
2) Both parties, the Israeli and the Palestinian peoples, have the right to their own State with well-defined borders;
3) The city of Jerusalem must enjoy a special status which is guaranteed internationally;
4) The humanitarian plight of the Palestinianrefugees must be resolved, according to the principles of international justice and solidarity.

…the Holy Father noted that “the Holy See has always recognized that the Palestinian people have the natural right to a homeland, and the right to be able to live in peace and tranquillity with the other peoples of this area”

 

[IsaacSheen]

Richardols:

Agreed. But, if you’re suggesting that we “should walk a mile in their shoes,” we’d have to do it both in Israeli and Palestinian shoes. IMO, anyway.

I agree. Nice point.

Matt25:

The Israeli’s are currently occupying land that was once almost wholly occupied exclusively by Palestinians. If the Palestinian people were to follow your advice here then they would demand that the Jews leave the whole of modern Israel, as indeed they used to do. Motivated however by greater generosity of spirit than you the majority of Palestinians have accepted that the pre-1967 borders of Israel constitute a legitimate Jewish state provided only that a Palestinian state can be created in the West Bank, the Gaza strip and East Jerusalem.

I used to make this same argument that you have made. In fact, I was discussing it in a Starbuck’s once with a friend. An older gentlemen heard me and turned around and told me “you don’t know your history”. I just sort of ignored him. I decided later to look up what he is talking about. There is more there than meets the eye. Maybe you have researched quite a bit into and know more than I, I don’t doubt it. If this is the case, our conclusions from the same information is different. It happens.

If you haven’t looked into it all, please do. I think you’ll find it very interesting.

Matt25:

BTW The Holy Roman See has a clear position on this question
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/s...eg-st_20031018_sodano-xxv-pontificate_en.html
. By way of summary, the position of the Holy See can be synthesized into the following points: 1) U.N. resolutions are to be respected, and in particular the well-known 242nd resolution of 22 November 1967, regarding the withdrawal of Israel “from occupied territories”;
2) Both parties, the Israeli and the Palestinian peoples, have the right to their own State with well-defined borders;
3) The city of Jerusalem must enjoy a special status which is guaranteed internationally;
4) The humanitarian plight of the Palestinianrefugees must be resolved, according to the principles of international justice and solidarity.

  ..the Holy Father noted that "the Holy See has always recognized that the Palestinian people have the natural right to a homeland, and the right to be able to live in peace and tranquillity with the other peoples of this area"

My personal belief is that the U.N. is a relatively failed concept. Not totally useless, but ultimately, for the purposes it was meant for, failed. Of course, many people can debate this, and I don’t choose to debate it with you because it would take too long and wouldn’t accomplish much if anything at all.

I will ask, did the Holy See declare this U.N. statement from the chair? In other words, is it infallible?

Also, I’m not saying the Palestinians shouldn’t have their own homeland. I just wonder what the boundaries should be. I wonder just how much Israel owes the Palestinians.

Lastly, you are only going back to 1967. Most of these people go back much further than that in their thinking. I mean this about both Jews and Palestinians. If that is the case…when does it end and who is right?

 

[vern_humphrey]

IsaacSheen:

I probably don’t have the facts/knowledge to back-up what I am about to say. I think Israel can have all three of those things, and probably should. I think that giving up the land they are giving up is the wrong thing to do. When you give in to a bully, it only makes him want more.

There really are only two choices – ethnic cleansing, or a two state solution.

If Israel absorbs the Palestinian people, they either become full citizens of Israel, or they are disenfranchised. If they become citizens, the Muslims citizens will outnumber the Jewish citizens in a generation or two.

If they are disenfranchised, Israel cannot legitimtely call herself a democracy – any more than South Africa could under Apartheid.

IsaacSheen:

Furthermore, I’m sure Israel has done some things wrong, but considering the circumstances, (i.e. nearly everyone in the world being their enemy) I think they’ve done the best they can…

Listening to people talk recently, including my friends, really makes me wonder. Many people really don’t like Israel. When you ask why…they don’t have an answer besides the usual:
“I know what Jews are really like”.

Lastly, maybe those poeple in Gaza should move somewhere else. If I’m not mistaken, isn’t that where many of the suicide bombers are coming from?

So your solution is ethnic cleansing?

IsaacSheen:

violate human rights? I can easily see how those would be security measures. The history of why things are the way they are really enlightens a person to make decisions on all these things. I know I’ve spoken in general terms, I can elaborate upon request. (I just woke up too, so please, bear with my not-fully-functioning mind).

Maybe there’s a better solution – seek peace.

Suppose we paid the “settlers” to move out of the West Bank and Gaza strip, and offered the Palestinians a chance to be a real state? What’s wrong with that?

 

[IsaacSheen]

vern humphrey:

There really are only two choices – ethnic cleansing, or a two state solution.

If Israel absorbs the Palestinian people, they either become full citizens of Israel, or they are disenfranchised. If they become citizens, the Muslims citizens will outnumber the Jewish citizens in a generation or two.

If they are disenfranchised, Israel cannot legitimtely call herself a democracy – any more than South Africa could under Apartheid.

So your solution is ethnic cleansing?

Maybe there’s a better solution – seek peace.

Suppose we paid the “settlers” to move out of the West Bank and Gaza strip, and offered the Palestinians a chance to be a real state? What’s wrong with that?

Ethnic cleansing? Did I miss something? I’m curious when I implied or stated that I was in favor of ethnic cleansing.

I am also going to request your definition of ethnic cleansing so that I know just what I’m working with here.

Peace is always the best option. Normally peace is reached by both sides sacrificing something for a greater good. Right now, it appears most people want Israel to do all of the sacrificing.