Is Israel Commited to Peace?

Hospitaller · Apr 1, 2005

vern humphrey:

One of the great problems is that men of peace are at a terrible disadvantage in situations like this. People look to leaders for results. What can the men of peace offer but patience, patience, and more patience? But the men of violence get “results” with an airstrike or a suicide bomb.

Men of peace on both sides (including an Israeli Prime Minister) have been killed for their efforts.

Don’t be ridiculous. As long as the Arab world remains Muslim there will be no peace. Period.

Matt25 · Apr 1, 2005

Hospitaller:

Don’t be ridiculous. As long as the Arab world remains Muslim there will be no peace. Period.

Many of the Palestinians are Catholic. They are no more keen on having their land stolen than their Muslim sisters and brothers.

Anyway contrary to the views of so many bigots on this Forum Muslims are no more prone to violence than anyone else. After all it wasn’t Muslims who murdered 6 million Jews in Europe. It wasn’t Muslims who attempted genocide in Rwanda. It wasn’t Muslims that attempted genocide in Kosovo. Nor was it Muslims who murdered the Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, nor was it a Muslim who went into the Hebron Mosque murdering 29 worshippers (it was a Jew Baruch Golstein).

The stumbling block it peace in the Middle East is not Islam or Judaism. It is human sinfulness, pride, anger and greed no side has a monopoly on any of these things.

John Paul said this to Muslims at the end of Ramadan 1991 monasticdialog.com/a.php?id=339

The path of those who believe in God and desire to serve him is not that of domination. It is the way of peace: a union of peace with our Creator expressed in doing his will; peace within the whole created universe, by using its benefits wisely and for the good of all; peace within the human family, by working together to build strong bonds of justice, fraternity and harmony within our societies; peace in the hearts of all individuals, who know from whom they have come, why they are on this earth, and to whom they will one day return. On this feast, my Muslim brothers and sisters, our prayer is that God will grant his peace to you and to all who turn to him in supplication.

vern_humphrey · Apr 1, 2005

Hospitaller:

Don’t be ridiculous. As long as the Arab world remains Muslim there will be no peace. Period.

Bigotry has no place in gentlemanly debate.

Right now, Muslims are fighting on our side in the War Against Terror – and far more Muslims than Americans have died fighting on our side.

Hospitaller · Apr 1, 2005

vern humphrey:

Bigotry has no place in gentlemanly debate.

It’s not anything of the kind my friend. It’s a statement of fact, and I suggest you read “Endless Jihad” on the mainsite.

vern_humphrey · Apr 1, 2005

Hospitaller:

It’s not anything of the kind my friend. It’s a statement of fact, and I suggest you read “Endless Jihad” on the mainsite.

You said “Don’t be ridiculous. As long as the Arab world remains Muslim there will be no peace. Period.”

That is bigotry, and no smokescreen will hide it.

The_Black_Knight · Apr 1, 2005

vern humphrey:

You said “Don’t be ridiculous. As long as the Arab world remains Muslim there will be no peace. Period.”

That is bigotry, and no smokescreen will hide it.

So telling the truth is now defined as bigotry. Wow.

Oh, I forgot. Nowadays the truth *is *bigotry.

vern_humphrey · Apr 1, 2005

The Black Knight:

So telling the truth is now defined as bigotry. Wow.

Oh, I forgot. Nowadays the truth *is *bigotry.

No, lying is bigotry.

You accept that all Muslims are somehow wrong and criminal, and spread that lie, just like the Nazis spread the lie the Jews were Undermenschen. No difference.

Hospitaller · Apr 1, 2005

vern humphrey:

No, lying is bigotry.

You accept that all Muslims are somehow wrong and criminal, and spread that lie, just like the Nazis spread the lie the Jews were Undermenschen. No difference.

Your pardon, Master Humphrey, but the only one here behaving in a bigoted manner seems to be yourself. You are jumping to conclusions, reading false intentions into my comments and making use of the classic Liberal-Socialist tactic of comparing one’s opponents to “Nazis”.

I made no comment (as you seem so eager to believe) in any way suggesting that “All Muslims are somehow wrong and criminal”. Had you actually bothered to read my post (rather than read into it), I think you would have noticed that I made no mention of Muslim individuals, but rather my words ran as follows: “As long as the Arab world remains Muslim there will be no peace” which is to say, as long as it adheres to Islamic tenets it will continue to threaten non-Muslims.

Islam is, like Christianity, a prosletyzing religion. It is also inherently violent. Simply stated, conflict is inevitable.

vern_humphrey · Apr 1, 2005

Hospitaller:

Your pardon, Master Humphrey, but the only one here behaving in a bigoted manner seems to be yourself. You are jumping to conclusions, reading false intentions into my comments and making use of the classic Liberal-Socialist tactic of comparing one’s opponents to “Nazis”…

What part of the following did you not mean?

“Don’t be ridiculous. As long as the Arab world remains Muslim there will be no peace. Period.”

Hospitaller:

I made no comment (as you seem so eager to believe) in any way suggesting that “All Muslims are somehow wrong and criminal”. Had you actually bothered to read my post (rather than read into it), I think you would have noticed that I made no mention of Muslim individuals, but rather my words ran as follows: “As long as the Arab world remains Muslim there will be no peace” which is to say, as long as it adheres to Islamic tenets it will continue to threaten non-Muslims. .

Which is bigotry on the face of it.

Hospitaller:

Islam is, like Christianity, a prosletyzing religion. It is also inherently violent. Simply stated, conflict is inevitable.

So we convert them, or they convert us? Is that how you see it? And since it is, in your mind, a matter of peace or war, what measures are we to take to acccomplish this?

Hospitaller · Apr 1, 2005

vern humphrey:

What part of the following did you not mean?

Go back and read it very carefully.
vern humphrey:

Which is bigotry on the face of it.

Only in your own mind I’m afraid.
vern humphrey:

So we convert them, or they convert us? Is that how you see it? And since it is, in your mind, a matter of peace or war, what measures are we to take to acccomplish this?

Same thing we’ve always done. Feel free to overindulge in outrage and/or moral indignation now.

Matt25 · Apr 2, 2005

Islam is, like Christianity, a prosletyzing religion. It is also inherently violent.

Are you saying that Christianity is inherently violent because it proselytises? Like the militant Hare Krishna mad dog killers I suppose.

The Second Vatican Council document Nostra Aetate cin.org/v2non.html said this about Muslims

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom

Nothing there about Islam’s inherent violence but I suppose you know more about matters of Faith than Holy Mother Church assembled in sacred synod.

The document also says

We cannot truly call on God, the Father of all, if we refuse to treat in a brotherly way any man, created as he is in the image of God. Man’s relation to God the Father and his relation to men his brothers are so linked together that Scripture says: “He who does not love does not know God” (1 John 4:8).

No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to discrimination between man and man or people and people, so far as their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned.

The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to “maintain good fellowship among the nations” (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men, so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.

I commend these words to your prayerful attention and invite you to become a faithful member of the Catholic Church

Hospitaller · Apr 2, 2005

Matt25:

Are you saying that Christianity is inherently violent because it proselytises? Like the militant Hare Krishna mad dog killers I suppose.

First of all, you’re missreading my comment. I stated that both Cristianity and Islam are proselytizing religions. I then went on to make the observation that *Islam *is inherently violent. You’re the one who made the quantum leap to assume that all proselytizing religions must be violent.

I can’t say I’ve heard of many incidents of Christians killing out of a religious motivation. On the other hand, no one can deny that there are many Muslims who view the matter somewhat differently. Just look at your own police having to deal with the increased rate of “honour killings”.

Matt25:

Nothing there about Islam’s inherent violence but I suppose you know more about matters of Faith than Holy Mother Church assembled in sacred synod.

You would suppose wrongly. This is not a matter of Faith. This is an assessment of a threat that is both religious and political in nature.

Matt25:

I commend these words to your prayerful attention and invite you to become a faithful member of the Catholic Church

Oh ha ha. http://webpages.charter.net/connectingzone/disagree/23.gif

vern_humphrey · Apr 2, 2005

Hospitaller:

Go back and read it very carefully.

Only in your own mind I’m afraid.

Same thing we’ve always done. Feel free to overindulge in outrage and/or moral indignation now.

Anti-semitism, wether directed against Jews or Arabs, is never pretty.

Matt25 · Apr 2, 2005

"As-salamu ‘alaikum!

"I give heartfelt praise to almighty God for the grace of this meeting. I am most grateful for your warm welcome in the tradition of hospitality so cherished by the people of this region. I thank especially the minister of the Waqf and the grand mufti for their gracious greetings, which put into words the great yearning for peace which fills the hearts of all people of good will. My jubilee pilgrimage has been marked by important meetings with Muslim leaders in Cairo and Jerusalem, and now I am deeply moved to be your guest here in the great Umayyad mosque, so rich in religious history. Your land is dear to Christians: Here our religion has known vital moments of its growth and doctrinal development, and here are found Christian communities which have lived in peace and harmony with their Muslim neighbors for many centuries.

" Christians and Muslims agree that the encounter with God in prayer is the necessary nourishment of our souls, without which our hearts wither and our will no longer strives for good but succumbs to evil.

"Both Muslims and Christians prize their places of prayer as oases where they meet the all-merciful God on the journey to eternal life and where they meet their brothers and sisters in the bond of religion. When, on the occasion of weddings or funerals or other celebrations, Christians and Muslims remain in silent respect at the other’s prayer, they bear witness to what unites them without disguising or denying the things that separate.

"It is in mosques and churches that the Muslim and Christian communities shape their religious identity, and it is there that the young receive a significant part of their religious education. What sense of identity is instilled in young Christians and young Muslims in our churches and mosques? It is my ardent hope that Muslim and Christian religious leaders and teachers will present our two great religious communities as communities in respectful dialogue, never more as communities in conflict. It is crucial for the young to be taught the ways of respect and understanding, so that they will not be led to misuse religion itself to promote or justify hatred and violence. Violence destroys the image of the Creator in his creatures and should never be considered as the fruit of religious conviction.

"I truly hope that our meeting today in the Umayyad mosque will signal our determination to advance interreligious dialogue between the Catholic Church and Islam.

" Better mutual understanding will surely lead at the practical level to a new way of presenting our two religions not in opposition, as has happened too often in the past, but in partnership for the good of the human family.

"Interreligious dialogue is most effective when it springs from the experience of ‘living with each other’ from day to day within the same community and culture. In Syria, Christians and Muslims have lived side by side for centuries, and rich dialogue of life has gone on unceasingly. Every individual and every family knows moments of harmony and other moments when dialogue has broken down. The positive experiences must strengthen our communities in the hope of peace; and the negative experiences should not be allowed to undermine that hope. For all the times that Muslims and Christians have offended one another, we need to seek forgiveness from the Almighty and offer each other forgiveness. Jesus teaches us that we must pardon others’ offenses if God is to pardon us our sins (cf. Mt. 6:14).

As we make our way through life toward our heavenly destiny, Christians feel the company of Mary, the mother of Jesus; and Islam too pays tribute to Mary and hails her as ‘chosen above the women of the world’ (Quran, III:42). The virgin of Nazareth, the Lady of Saydnâya, has taught us that God protects the humble and “scatters the proud in the imagination of their hearts” (Lk. 1:51). May the hearts of Christians and Muslims turn to one another with feelings of brotherhood and friendship, so that the Almighty may bless us with the peace which heaven alone can give.To the one, merciful God be praise and glory forever. Amen.

John Paul II, address on his Visit to the Umayyad Great Mosque, May 6, 2001

Matt25 · Apr 2, 2005

“In a world deeply marked by violence, it is bitterly ironic that even now some of the worst conflicts are between believers who worship the one God, who look to Abraham as a holy patriarch and who seek to follow the Law of Sinai. Each act of violence makes it more urgent for Muslims and Christians everywhere to recognize the things we have in common, to bear witness that we are all creatures of the one merciful God, and to agree once and for all that recourse to violence in the name of religion is completely unacceptable. Especially when religious identity coincides with cultural and ethnic identity it is a solemn duty of believers to ensure that religious sentiment is not used as an excuse for hatred and conflict. Religion is the enemy of exclusion and discrimination; it seeks the good of everyone and therefore ought to be a stimulus for solidarity and harmony between individuals and among peoples. . . .”

"It is natural that believers in God should meet in friendship and sharing. Christians and Muslims, together with the followers of the Jewish religion, belong to what can be called ‘the tradition of Abraham.’ In our respective traditions Abraham is called ‘the intimate friend of God’ (in Arabic, Al-Khalil). He receives this title because of his flawless faith in God. . . .

"As two religious communities who strive to submit ourselves without reserve to the will of God, we Christians and Muslims should live together in peace, friendship and cooperation. I am happy to note that, since the arrival of the first Christians in this land, the people of Senegal have given the world a good example of this sharing life.

"In May 1991, in a joint message to their fellow Christians, the Catholic bishops of Senegal called attention to the ‘real efforts at understanding and dialogue between Christians and Muslims, the meeting between religious leaders’ which have been undertaken in your country. They noted that the young people have worked together to build cemeteries, mosques and churches; that school children engage in healthy emulation to make their schools places of peace, forgiveness and fraternity; that adults work together to improve the life of the community spirit of the country. I would like to support and encourage all these efforts at building a harmonious society because I am convinced that this is the way of God. Our Creator and our final judge desires that we live together. Our God is a God of peace, who desires peace among those who live according to His commandments. Our God is the holy God who desires that those who call upon Him live in ways that are holy and upright. He is a God of dialogue who has been engaged from the very beginning of history in a dialogue of salvation with the humanity which He created. This dialogue continues in the present day, and will go on until the end of time.

“We Christians and Muslims must be people of dialogue. As I have often said, and as the bishops of Senegal have repeated, this commitment to dialogue means, first of all, ‘a dialogue of life’, a positive acceptance, interaction and cooperation by which we bear active witness, as believers, to the ideals to which God has called us.”

Matt25 · Apr 2, 2005

"To all Muslims throughout the world, I wish to express the readiness of the Catholic Church to work together with you and all the people of good will to aid the victims of the war and to build structures of a lasting peace not only in the Middle East, but everywhere. This cooperation in solidarity towards the most afflicted can form the concrete basis for a sincere, profound and constant dialogue between believing Catholics and believing Muslims, from which there can arise a strengthened mutual knowledge and trust, and the assurance that each one everywhere will be able to profess freely and authentically his or her own faith.

"Injustice, oppression, aggression, greed, failure to forgive, desire for revenge, and unwillingness to enter into dialogue and negotiate: these are merely some of the factors which lead people to depart from the way in which God desires us to live on this planet. We must all learn to recognize these elements in our own lives and societies, and find ways to overcome them. Only when individuals and groups undertake this education for peace can we build a fraternal and united world, freed from war and violence.

"I close my greeting to you with the words of one of my predecessors, Pope Gregory VII who in 1076 wrote to Al-Nasir, the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya, present day Algeria: ‘Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. You and we owe this charity to ourselves especially because we believe in and confess one God, admittedly, in a different way, and daily praise and venerate him, the creator of the world and ruler of this world.’

“These words, written almost a thousand years ago, express my feelings to you today as you celebrate ‘Id al-Fitr, the Feast of the Breaking of the Fast. May the Most High God fill us with all His merciful love and peace.”

"You must try to show your Muslim brethren and the followers of other religious traditions that your Christian faith, far from weakening your sense of pride in your homeland and your love for her, helps you to prize and respect the culture and heritage of Bangladesh. It inspires you to face the challenges of the present day with love and responsibility. . . .

"The Catholic Church is committed to a path of dialogue and collaboration with the men and women of goodwill of every religious tradition. We have many spiritual resources in common which we must share with one another as we work for a more human world. Young people especially know how to be open with each other and they want a world in which all the basic freedoms, including the freedom of religious belief, will be respected.

“Sometimes Christians and Muslims fear and distrust one another as a result of past misunderstanding and conflict. This is also true in Bangladesh. Everyone, especially the young, must learn to always respect one another’s religious beliefs and to defend freedom of religion, which is the right of every human being.”

Hospitaller · Apr 2, 2005

vern humphrey:

Anti-semitism, wether directed against Jews or Arabs, is never pretty.

You have a quite astounding ability to twist definitions to your own ends Vern. Will you next be redefining the word “is”?

On a serious note though, I would be very interested in hearing both you and Matt25 explain why you feel the way you do over Islam.

vern_humphrey · Apr 2, 2005

Hospitaller:

You have a quite astounding ability to twist definitions to your own ends Vern. Will you next be redefining the word “is”?.

I leave that to those who feel the need to denegrate other human beings.

Hospitaller:

On a serious note though, I would be very interested in hearing both you and Matt25 explain why you feel the way you do over Islam.

Because:

You attack a whole religion with a blatently biased interpretation of their beliefs.
You persist even when corrected and shown the Church’s position.

The_Black_Knight · Apr 2, 2005

vern humphrey:

You attack a whole religion with a blatently biased interpretation of their beliefs.

You persist even when corrected and shown the Church’s position.

Considering all the horrors commited in the name of Allah against Christians and other non-Muslims Humphrey, the onus is on you to prove Islam innocent.

vern_humphrey · Apr 2, 2005

The Black Knight:

Considering all the horrors commited in the name of Allah against Christians and other non-Muslims Humphrey, the onus is on you to prove Islam innocent.

If anyone reading this had any doubts you are a bigot, you just swept away those doubts with your own words.

What Muslim horror matches the Holocaust, committed by people who were ostensibly Christians?

Cast the beam out of your own eye first.

Is Israel Commited to Peace?

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