Is Israel Commited to Peace?

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Hospitaller:
Vern, neither myself or the Black Knight have expressed hatred towards anyone.
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What do you call saying there can be no peace as long as the Arabs remain Muslim?

It’s certainly not in accord with the CCC!
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Hospitaller:
We have expressed a legitimate concern that Islam as a cultural force is inherently violent from its doctrine to its practice. We have presented articles and links to support our side of the debate. .
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Yes – no doubt David Duke can come with articles supporting his prejudice against Blacks, and the Reverend Ian Pasley can come up with articles supporting his rabid anti-Catholic prejudices.
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Hospitaller:
You, on the other hand, have made constant use of snide remarks, claims of “bigotry”, and pointles sarcasm. Your attitude is consistantly “hatefull” as far as any definition would put it. You have (deliberately or otherwise) missread my arguments, attributed false intentions to me, and disregarded any evidence that threatens your position in the debate…
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Ah, when YOU attack a whole people and their religion, that’s okay – but no one dare point out your prejudices?

You will note I refuted your claim that Muslims had committed more or worse atrocities than anyone else – the Holocaust alone disproves THAT claim.

I also pointed out that if we as Christians reject responsibility for the Holocaust, we can hardl demand all Muslims accept responsibility for 9/11.
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Hospitaller:
You have not presented any evidence to support your unfounded claims, apart from your continued insistance that because Moslems are fighting against other Muslims in the WOT, that somehow vindicates the religion in its entirety. .
You must have short-term memory loss. I have mentioned the Holocaust, anti-Jewish riots and pogroms in Christian, and the expulsion of the Jews from Christian nations - like Spain and England.
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Hospitaller:
Now, I would be most obliged if you would present some information to support your contentions, or else admit that the weight of evidence is on our side.
As you have seen, the weight of evidence is on my side – if we absolve ourselves of what Christians did to the Jews, we can hardly hold all Islam responsibile for 9/11.
 
vern humphrey:
What do you call saying there can be no peace as long as the Arabs remain Muslim?

It’s certainly not in accord with the CCC!
As I’ve said before, the Church is not guaranteed to be infallible in political decisions, on in faith and morals.
vern humphrey:
Yes – no doubt David Duke can come with articles supporting his prejudice against Blacks, and the Reverend Ian Pasley can come up with articles supporting his rabid anti-Catholic prejudices.
You’re acting like Jack Chick, pontificating, demonizing your opponents and then refusing to back up your own assertions.
vern humphrey:
Ah, when YOU attack a whole people and their religion, that’s okay – but no one dare point out your prejudices?
For the last time, I am *not *attacking a “whole people”. I’m trying to make you understand that Islam is a religion that sponsors violence, it always has, and it needs to be addressed as such. It would hardly be a display of prejudice against the Germans to say that Nazism fostered horrific violence, or to criticize the Aztecs that their sun-worship compelled them to engage in non-stop warfare to acquire people to sacrifice to their gods by cutting out their hearts with stone knives while they were still alive and conscious, or to say of the Phoenicians that their worship of Moloch fostered in them the regrettable habit of regularly burning large numbers of infants alive.
vern humphrey:
You must have short-term memory loss. I have mentioned the Holocaust, anti-Jewish riots and pogroms in Christian, and the expulsion of the Jews from Christian nations - like Spain and England.
That sounds more like long-term memory-loss to me. And would you mind explaining to me where Christian is? I can’t seem to find it on the map.

Anti-Jewish riots and murders in Europe were indeed great crimes, but they were not the responsibility of the Church (at least not the Catholic Church), nor were they usually committed for religious reasons. Jews were usually wealthy, and attacking them as enemies of Christ was a convenient gloss to cover envy and a desire for their wealth, but the Church always condemned this, and tried its best to protect them, as St. Bernard of Clairveux did at the onset of the “People’s Crusade”.

The Jews were expelled from Spain and England not out of religious motivations, but, in the case of Spain, because of the rampant practice of usury. Both Queen Isabella (many of whose highest officials were Jews) and the Spanish clergy attempted forestall the expulsion that had happened in so many other European countries for as long as possible, but in the end they were forced to give way to popular pressure.
 
vern humphrey:
As you have seen, the weight of evidence is on my side – if we absolve ourselves of what Christians did to the Jews, we can hardly hold all Islam responsibile for 9/11.
Hmm. It seems you have a spelling problem as well.😉

Christians do indeed bear responsibility for the Holocaust. For not stopping Hitler when it could have been done easily, for ignoring the rumor of the wholesale murder of Jews in Germany, for standing by and turning a blind eye to it as it happened in their towns and city streets. For not caring.

However, many Christians did their best to shelter the Jews from the Nazis, and many were sent to the concentration camps alongside them.

The Holocaust was not carried out by Christians who felt they were accomplishing a religious duty, as 9/11 was caused by Muslims who felt they were accomplishing a religious duty, it was carried out by Europeans who felt they were carrying out a racial duty.
vern humphrey:
You will note I refuted your claim that Muslims had committed more or worse atrocities than anyone else – the Holocaust alone disproves THAT claim.
Interestingly, there is a very significant link between Islam and the Holocaust. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, was, like many Muslims (such as Saddam Hussein’s maternal uncle) a staunch advocate of Hitler. According to the testimony of Adolf Eichmann’s deputy Dieter Wisliceny at the Nuremberg trials:

The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. … He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.
 
If we assume that John Paul who lived through Nazi Occupation, World War and Stalinism was less able to recognise an inherently violent system than those wise people watching Fox News at home in the USA then what conclusions do we arrive at?

If Islam is inherently violent that means that no amount of reforms, democracy or freedom can make it non-violent. It means that all Muslims living in Westen countries, as inherently violent people, must be regarded with suspicion as enemies. all Muslims would of course have to be removed from positions such as teachers, doctors or nurses where there inherent violence may cause them to harm ‘normal’ people. Perhaps special Muslim only ghettos can be created in Christian cities or maybe all Muslims should be expelled. After all if they are inherently violent what other protection would the dovelike peaceful, but heavily armed, Christians of Texas or the Mid-West have?

As for Muslim countries, well I suppose if Islam is inherently violent they could be given the choice to convert or be nuked. That would make sense. Certainly the preferred approach of the Saintly John Paul, with his limited experience of war and tyranny, of prayer, dialogue and mutual respect would be out of the question.

The problem with saying that something is inherently wicked is that its outworkings can only mean destruction for those who are inexticably linked to that something. Like all these inherently violent baby Muslims, child Muslims, Muslims with Parkinsons disease, blind Muslims, Muslim doctors, Muslim US Marines. Remember Jews used to think Samaritans were inherently degenerate which is why Our Lord told the parable of the Good Samaritan. Muslims do not have to change religion to be good neighbours to us or we to them.
 
Right. As though we haven’t tried being reasonable with global Islam for the last few decades prior to 2001.

BTW, there are already Muslim ghettoes in France, if that interests you. Apparently, the Muslim-occupied housing blocks in Paris are specifically designed to be easily sealed off and contained should any kind of violence break out.
 
The Black Knight:
Right. As though we haven’t tried being reasonable with global Islam for the last few decades prior to 2001.
Is ‘Global Islam’ responsible for the September 2001 attacks in the
USA? Does that mean that each and every one of the 1.7 billion Muslims in the world supported those attacks and so deserves punishment?

BTW if the activities of the few are the responsibility of the many does that mean that all Americans supported Timothy McVeigh? Do all US military personnel support the mistreatment of prisoners?
 
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Hospitaller:
Hmm. It seems you have a spelling problem as well.😉

Christians do indeed bear responsibility for the Holocaust. For not stopping Hitler when it could have been done easily, for ignoring the rumor of the wholesale murder of Jews in Germany, for standing by and turning a blind eye to it as it happened in their towns and city streets. For not caring.

However, many Christians did their best to shelter the Jews from the Nazis, and many were sent to the concentration camps alongside them.

The Holocaust was not carried out by Christians who felt they were accomplishing a religious duty, as 9/11 was caused by Muslims who felt they were accomplishing a religious duty, it was carried out by Europeans who felt they were carrying out a racial duty.

Interestingly, there is a very significant link between Islam and the Holocaust. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, was, like many Muslims (such as Saddam Hussein’s maternal uncle) a staunch advocate of Hitler. According to the testimony of Adolf Eichmann’s deputy Dieter Wisliceny at the Nuremberg trials:

The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. … He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.
I really wish I could find a dog who could fetch like this – I was just waiting for you guys to blame the Holocaust on Muslims. That’s what anti-Muslims always do when backed into a corner.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

For every Muslim who supported the Nazis, I can find a thousand Poles, Lithuanians, Hungarians, Rumanians, Italians, Frenchmen, Dutchmen, and so on.

Let me make a few points – first, if Islam mjust bear responsibility for 9/11. Christians must bear responsibility for the Holocaust. You can’t have it both ways – you can split all the hairs you want, but so can Muslims.

Second, as I said before – more Muslims have died fighting on our side than Americans. Now, to denegrate the sacrifice of those who have paid the ultimate price is simply unmanly.

Third, the Catholic Church accords special status to Islam as a religion that worships the God of Abraham – the same God we worship.(see paragraph 841 of the CCC.)

Fourth, when you say your position is “political,” what makes you right? Strategically, we are benefited by having alliances with Muslims and aiding them in overcoming the radical elements in their midst – we are winning this war (in so far as it can be won) and we are doing it with Muslim help.

Now, let me depart – tomorrow morning, I will start out on the Ozark Highland Trail, and spend the next two weeks hiking, meditating, and praying. I will pray for you.
 
I notice none of those fellows graced by the presence of the ministers of their religion, nor wearing headbands emblazoned with scripture.
vern humphrey:
For every Muslim who supported the Nazis, I can find a thousand Poles, Lithuanians, Hungarians, Rumanians, Italians, Frenchmen, Dutchmen, and so on.
The Poles. Ahh yes, I’m certain you could find a “thousand Poles” for every Muslim who supported the Nazis- like anyone’s going believe that.
vern humphrey:
Second, as I said before – more Muslims have died fighting on our side than Americans. Now, to denegrate the sacrifice of those who have paid the ultimate price is simply unmanly.
You seem to be missing the fact that Islam’s adherents have killed more Americans since 1979 than any other group on earth. Having stated that salient fact, I will now begin make constant, continual and repetitious reference to it in every other post I make.
 
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Hospitaller:
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You seem to be missing the fact that Islam’s adherents have killed more Americans since 1979 than any other group on earth.
I think you will find that American car drivers have killed more Americans since 1979 than anyone else.

Also American hand gun owners have killed a fair few.

And American abortionists havent killed any Americans I suppose since the unborn have no citizenship rights. Except with God.
 
Getting back to the original argument, today in my paper there was an Associated Press article saying that the “settlers” are planning to withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. They want higher compensation but they realize they need to move out. I guess this article ends it…Israel is commited to Peace.
 
4/4/2005 8:15:00 PM GMT

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon vowed on Monday to continue pushing ahead with expansion of a large illegal Jewish settlement near Jerusalem, inspite of U.S. concerns and Palestinian protests it would cut them off from the city.
“I don’t see construction in the E-1 area as a serious problem,” Sharon, referring to the illegal West Bank settlement of Maale Adumim, was quoted as telling lawmakers at a closed-door session. “We must link Jerusalem to Maale Adumim.”

Sharon was speaking to a parliamentary committee a week before he meets up with George Bush at the U.S. president’s Texas ranch.

A while back Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, in response to the news of Israeli plans to build 3,500 homes between Maale Adumim and Arab East Jerusalem, said settlement expansion was at odds with U.S. policy and should come to a “full stop.”

But Sharon believes an extension of Israel’s biggest illegal settlement, where some 30,000 people reside, is in line with Bush’s assurance to him last year that the Jewish state could expect to keep some large settlement blocs under a final peace accord.

Bush’s commitment, which broke with decades of U.S. policy, angered Palestinians.

Palestinians said the latest project on land Israel occupied in the 1967 Middle East war would cut them off from East Jerusalem, the capital of their future state.

Israel meanwhile considers all of Jerusalem as its undivided capital, a claim that is not recognized internationally.

Many Palestinians believe that Sharon’s planned pullout from Gaza is merely a ploy to trade the impoverished coastal strip where 8,500 illegal settlers live for large swathes of the West Bank, where most of Israel’s 240,000 illegal settlers reside.

“(Sharon) wants to withdraw from Gaza to impose his control on the West Bank, especially Jerusalem,” Palestinian Deputy Prime Minister Nabil Shaath said, referring to Sharon’s remarks.
 
Apr 4, 11:36 PM EDT
Gaza Settlers Agree to Meet With Sharon

By JOSEF FEDERMAN
Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM (AP) – Ending months of angry opposition, several Jewish settler leaders agreed Monday to sit down with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to discuss Israel’s planned withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.

The meeting, set for Tuesday, was the latest sign that some settlers have come to terms with their failure to scuttle the plan and are preparing for life after the pullout this summer. Agreement by a majority of settlers to cut a deal would reduce the threat of confrontations.

Settlers are demanding higher compensation from the government for giving up their homes. And some leaders, who are urging followers to refrain from violence, say they want to move their tight-knit communities as a group to Israel.

Zevulun Orlev, a pro-settler lawmaker who helped organize Tuesday’s meeting, said the participants would outline settlers’ concerns for Sharon. “We want the meeting to be the start of a dialogue between the prime minister and the settlers,” he said.

While Orlev said he still bitterly opposed the withdrawal, he reluctantly acknowledged its inevitability. “We have to understand that we have to prepare for the possibility of the day after,” he said.

The meeting follows a bruising but failed struggle in parliament to defeat Sharon’s plan for uprooting all 21 settlements in Gaza and four small settlements in the West Bank.

Sharon says removal of these communities, which are home to 9,000 people, will improve Israel’s security and help consolidate control over larger West Bank settlements.

Sharon reportedly told a parliamentary committee Monday that Israel should press forward with plans to connect the largest Jewish settlement in the West Bank to Jerusalem despite strong U.S. and Palestinian objections.

“This program has been in existence for 10 years. We should definitely move ahead with it,” Sharon was quoted as saying by a meeting participant.

Palestinian officials condemned Sharon’s comments. The Palestinians say that project will prevent them from setting up a viable independent state with east Jerusalem as their capital.

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, in a bid to reform his corrupt security forces and rein in militants who have taken control of many West Bank towns, will force about 1,000 Palestinian security officials into early retirement.

Since announcing his Gaza plan last year, Sharon has repeatedly outflanked opponents, overcoming divisions within his own party to win parliamentary approval. Last week, he cleared the final obstacle by winning approval for his 2005 budget. A failure to pass the spending plan would have caused the government to collapse and forced elections for a new parliament.
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Many settlers have now turned their attention to the future, particularly how much money they will receive.
“Today, that’s the central issue,” said Gershon Blomberg, an 11-year resident of Ganim, one of the West Bank settlements slated for evacuation.

Blomberg said he has been offered $135,000 for his modest home, located on a quarter-acre plot. He says that isn’t enough to buy something similar inside Israel - even in the rural communities he has looked at near the northern city of Afula.

“We’ve come to terms with the withdrawal, but we want to leave with respect, like we deserve,” said Blomberg, 60.

Yonatan Bassi, head of the government body in charge of paying compensation, acknowledged such concerns. “I think that for most of the settlers, the compensation is reasonable. There are certain groups for whom the compensation truly is very low,” he told Channel Two television.

Bassi said he expected payments to begin within days. Under current guidelines, settler families are expected to receive about $200,000 to $300,000, depending on the size of their home and other factors.

One report said settler leaders would demand an additional $1 billion at Tuesday’s meeting, on top of the $900 million allocated by the government for compensation.

The settler representatives are also expected to propose that the 7,000 residents of Gush Katif, the main group of Gaza settlements, be moved as a group to a coastal area near the Israeli town of Ashkelon, which is just north of Gaza.

Israeli officials said that Sharon supported the idea of moving people in groups and that the government would consider raising compensation, saying their biggest concern was avoiding violence by militants.

Over the weekend, police began tightening security around the Al Aqsa Mosque compound in Jerusalem’s Old City, and police searched cars Monday passing through the main entry into the area. An attack on the site, which is also revered by Jews as the Temple Mount, would cause widespread anger across the Muslim world.
 
4/4/2005 1:30:00 PM GMT
Israeli authorities plan to dump garbage in Abu Shusha quarry, between the Palestinian city of Nablus and the Jewish settlement of Kedumim, ignoring international laws governing the occupied territory, an Israeli newspaper said on Monday, adding that the move will imperil Palestinian water supplies.

Although it hasn’t got a government approval for the project yet, an Israeli firm is preparing to use the West Bank’s largest quarry to dump at least 10,000 tonnes of garbage a month, Haaretz daily said.

Israeli and Palestinian officials couldn’t be reached for comment.

According to Haaretz report , the dump is against international pacts that prohibit using any occupied lands unless it benefits the local population.

The project, sponsored by a settler-owned firm, will pollute the Mountain Aquifer, one or the main sources of fresh water for Israel and the West Bank, the paper said.

The U.S.-backed “road map” peace plan stipulates that Israel stop settlement construction in the West Bank and Gaza. President George W. Bush, however, supports an Israeli plan to keep large West Bank settlement blocs as part of any final peace accord.

On Sunday, Palestinian sources reported that the Israeli authorities are planning to force Palestinian residents of the Negev villages out of their homes by demolishing their homes and confiscating their lands .

Israeli minister of interior claim that there are about 30,000 illegally built houses belonging to the Palestinians living in that area.

The Israeli Interior ministry has ordered the demolition of some 350 Palestinian homes. Other demolition notices have been delivered to the Palestinian residents on the part of the Israeli local committees, according to Palestinian sources.
Meanwhile, the legal center catering for the rights of the Arab minority in the 1948 occupied lands is to palnning to file a petition against the Israeli military prosecution at the Israeli higher court, asking for the results of the military report on the Israeli murder of Mute’ab Al-Nabari, a Palestinian citizen who was murdered on 13/10/2003 in Al-Khalil district at the hands of the Israeli occupation forces.

A report on the autopsy performed on Mute’ab’s corpse showed that he was shot dead by the Israeli troops.
 
FightingFat said:
4/4/2005 1:30:00 PM GMT
Israeli authorities plan to dump garbage in Abu Shusha quarry, between the Palestinian city of Nablus and the Jewish settlement of Kedumim, ignoring international laws governing the occupied territory, an Israeli newspaper said on Monday, adding that the move will imperil Palestinian water supplies.

** Although it hasn’t got a government approval for the project yet**, an Israeli firm is preparing to use the West Bank’s largest quarry to dump at least 10,000 tonnes of garbage a month, Haaretz daily said.
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Well, although I think they are ready and working for peace, I’m not going to defend stupid things they do! (notice the bold though).
 
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Matt25:
I think you will find that American car drivers have killed more Americans since 1979 than anyone else.

Also American hand gun owners have killed a fair few.

And American abortionists havent killed any Americans I suppose since the unborn have no citizenship rights. Except with God.
I would point out to you that none of those groups you mentioned feel it is a religious obligation to kill non-gun owners, or non-drivers, or unborn children.
 
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Hospitaller:
I would point out to you that none of those groups you mentioned feel it is a religious obligation to kill non-gun owners, or non-drivers, or unborn children.
They have nonetheless killed more Americans than the Islamic extremists. If your first concern is with protecting the lives of Americans then you should work for Road Safety before you start boldly encourging other people to risk their lives on foreign wars.

It is not in any case a religious obligation for Muslims to kill Americans. Scarcely surprising since America was unknown to Muhammad.
 
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IsaacSheen:
Well, although I think they are ready and working for peace, I’m not going to defend stupid things they do! (notice the bold though).
I think you and FF are speaking past each other. Sharon has a strategy of pulling out the seven thousand settlers in the Gaza to convince the world that he is a man at peace. At the same time he is expanding the already much bigger settlements in the West Bank. The strategy is clearly aimed at saying “we gave away land in Gaza, its only fair that we get some back in the West Bank”. This is not so much land for peace as land theft. Bear in mind also that the land that Israel occupies in both Gaza and the West Bank it does so illegally, as even the USA does not deny.
 
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