Is Israel Commited to Peace?

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Matt25:
I think you and FF are speaking past each other.
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?? Not sure what you mean by this. Explain please?
 
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Matt25:
It is not in any case a religious obligation for Muslims to kill Americans. Scarcely surprising since America was unknown to Muhammad.
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That elegant example of side-stepping the issue does not seem to have proved much of a deterrent thus far.
 
“Bear in mind also that the land that Israel occupies in both Gaza and the West Bank it does so illegally, as even the USA does not deny.”

Funny, Israel occupies land in Gaza and the West Bank that is disputed but not illegal. Gaza was taken from Egypt and the West Bank taken from Jordon who both decided they no longer wanted that land back. In a move only recognized by 2 foreign powers, in 1948 the West Bank was only part of Jordon because they annexed it. So in legal terms, it is disputed land and not an illegal occupation. The US has never said it is an illegal occupation, only that the “Palestinian people”, a national identity created in 20th century, should get a state in most of the disputed land. It used to be that when you lost land in a war you didn’t have a claim to it (Does anyone think Mexico will get California back?), but being far more civilized than their suicide bombing neighbors they are actually considering giving it back.

Furthermore, the 2 resolutions so often referred to as making the “occupation” illegal are revisions of versions that explicitly stated Israel must return ALL of the West Bank and Gaza, but were rejected. And were rejected for that reason. As per the author of the resolution (British rep Lord Caradon), “It would have been wrong to demand that Israel return to its positions of June 4th 1967 because those positions were undesirable and artificial.” The Soviet rep stated “that part of these territories can remain in Israeli hands”. The only people wanting the word “all the territories” were the Arab states. Incidentally, they also cling to idea that because the resolution establishes the “inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war” refers to Israel. Given Israel attacked only after Hafez Asad (Syria) and Nasser (Egypt) openly threatened war after removing UN peacekeepers from Sinai (act of war), blockaded the straits of Tiran (act of war) and mobilized (in the context, act of war), Israel launched a preemptive war of self defense which is legal in the UN charter. So by the Arab logic, the instigators of a war would be protected from having to permanently hand over any land they lost since any land lost by an aggressor in that war would fit the definition. Germany decreased in size after WW1 and WW2, yet apparently the justice in punishing the aggressors in war no longer is applied.

On a final note, Israel could have (and probably should have) annexed the “West Bank” and Gaza but they placed it under military administration so that it could eventually be returned. Maybe if the PLO (established to liberate Palestine before the 1967 war in 1964, so I wonder what they meant by Palestine eh???) had taken a break from its guerilla war and decided to negotiate it would have been all over then. But it’s clear the “Palestinians” have simply been a pawn in the pan-Arab desire to rid their holy land (it was our holy land first before they stole it in the 7th century) of Jews. Funny, after the establishment of a Palestinian state, do you hear Israeli calls for expelling Arabs from its boarders? No, but tell me why Jews can’t live in the “west bank” in a land full of cities and towns with Jewish names and archeology?

There is only one aggressor, only one enemy, and when they’re done with Israel they’ll come for you too (although since God promised they’d return one last time and never again be driven from the land, that day will never come)
 
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Hospitaller:
Not, I suspect, without reason.

Go on Vern, explain this away.

%between%

%between%

I will be praying that your blindness may be removed and your eyes opened.
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Go on, Hospitaler, explain this away:

http://history1900s.about.com/library/graphics/hitler37.gif

Note the buliding in the background.

Now, for every arab Nazi you find, I can find a hundred Italians, Frenchmen, Poles, Ukranians, Rumanians, Balts, ect. who actively participated in the Holocaust.

My church (Saint Mary’s in Batesville, Arkansas) was desecrated and burned by the Ku Klux Klan in the 1970s – I am not a fan of bigots.
 
vern humphrey:
Go on, Hospitaler, explain this away:

http://history1900s.about.com/library/graphics/hitler37.gif

Note the buliding in the background.

Now, for every arab Nazi you find, I can find a hundred Italians, Frenchmen, Poles, Ukranians, Rumanians, Balts, ect. who actively participated in the Holocaust.

My church (Saint Mary’s in Batesville, Arkansas) was desecrated and burned by the Ku Klux Klan in the 1970s – I am not a fan of bigots.
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What happened to the “thousand” Poles, etc, you claimd to be able to find for every one adherent of Islam? Are you getting modest or have you figured out that making such grandiose generalizations is dangerous to your (already pretty thin) credibility?

As for claiming that merely because a church happens to be in the background of a Nazi rally that the Holocaust was fully sanctioned by Christians, that’s about the lowest form of the guilt-by-association ploy I’ve yet encountered.
 
The Black Knight:
What happened to the “thousand” Poles, etc, you claimd to be able to find for every one adherent of Islam? Are you getting modest or have you figured out that making such grandiose generalizations is dangerous to your (already pretty thin) credibility?.
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You deny that there were Polish and Ukranian guards at concentration camps? Or that the Balts carried out their own massacres of Jews when the Nazis took them over? Or that Frenchmen and Italians helped locate and load Jews onto the trains?

Try this kimel.net/collab.html
The Black Knight:
As for claiming that merely because a church happens to be in the background of a Nazi rally that the Holocaust was fully sanctioned by Christians, that’s about the lowest form of the guilt-by-association ploy I’ve yet encountered.
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Whoa! You show a couple of nasty pictures of people giving a salute and holding a swastika and try to brand a whole people with those pictures and THEN you complain about guilt by association??

Wow!
 
Obviously, some of the most veheminent Holocaust deniers are those who participated and their descendants.

This is from:

Scrambling out from the Abyss of Holocaust

“Quite another question, however, is the effectiveness of this education. Citizens of Lithuania – similar to most of the post-Soviet societies – have to overcome a number of archaic stereotypes, which restrict thinking and prevent from perceiving the Holocaust and anti-Semitism as the tools of the aggressive policy pursued by the Nazi Germany, and to assess the crimes of their compatriots in executing the Jewish genocide.”
 
vern humphrey:
You deny that there were Polish and Ukranian guards at concentration camps?
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It’s well documented that there were Ukrainian guards, but if there were any Poles at all at the Camps, it would be a very small number, at most a handful, and even that I’d doubt. (Hundreds of Polish POWs were impressed into the Wehrmacht, however) The Poles were as despised by the Germans as the Jews. The Polish people are rightly proud of their almost universal non-collaboration with the Germans, and total non-collaboration on a governmental or national level.
 
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Richardols:
It’s well documented that there were Ukrainian guards, but if there were any Poles at all at the Camps, it would be a very small number, at most a handful, and even that I’d doubt. (Hundreds of Polish POWs were impressed into the Wehrmacht, however) The Poles were as despised by the Germans as the Jews. The Polish people are rightly proud of their almost universal non-collaboration with the Germans, and total non-collaboration on a governmental or national level.
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Actually, there were quite a few – if you watched the documentary MSNBC ran on John Paul II, they commented on how he resisted the rising tide of anti-Semitism in Poland in the 1930s. That anti-Semitism, in Poland as in the Baltic States, Croatia, the Ukrane and elsewhere led some people to participate in the Holocaust.

Yes – there were courageous Poles who resisted the Germans. There were others who collaborated. It was the same in virtually all nations under the Nazi boot. In Poland and a few other nations, it was exacerbated by fear of the Russians – it was the Soviets, after all, who committed the Katyn Forest Massacre of Polish officer prisoners and other leaders.

I went to OCS with a fellow whose father was a Lithuanian collaborator, and the son was as anti-Semetic as you could get.
 
vern humphrey:
Actually, there were quite a few – if you watched the documentary MSNBC ran on John Paul II, they commented on how he resisted the rising tide of anti-Semitism in Poland in the 1930s.

Yes – there were courageous Poles who resisted the Germans. There were others who collaborated.
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Collaboration on a “local” level was certainly true. Black marketeers, crooked cops, neighborhood snitches, etc., sure. But, none of the general collaboration found in the Ukraine and the Baltic States.
In Poland and a few other nations, it was exacerbated by fear of the Russians – it was the Soviets, after all, who committed the Katyn Forest Massacre of Polish officer prisoners and other leaders.
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I think that Germans were feared more.
I went to OCS with a fellow whose father was a Lithuanian collaborator, and the son was as anti-Semetic as you could get.
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Yeah, I also knew some Lithuanians.
 
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Richardols:
Collaboration on a “local” level was certainly true. Black marketeers, crooked cops, neighborhood snitches, etc., sure. But, none of the general collaboration found in the Ukraine and the Baltic States…
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Collaboration on a local level is, if anything, more damming, because it is people making their own, personal decisions, and not being led to them by people they respect.

Here’s a quote from a Holocaust site:

"In Poland, 3 million of Jews were killed, and only 40-50,000 Jews survived in Poland, the majority (about 240,000) survived in exile in Russia or in German concentration camps. 3 millions of Jews could not have been killed in a short span of 18 months without the active help of the Polish population. The dehumanization of the Jews made them easy prey. There was a saying among the Poles under the occupation: “The Germans will throw stones at Hitler dead, because he brought about the downfall of the German people, but the Poles will bring flowers to his grave as a token of gratitude of his freeing Poland from the Jews.”

You can read the rest at kimel.net/poland.html
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Richardols:
I think that Germans were feared more.
QUOTE]

In the end, yes – but it was a sort of collaboration between the Nazis and Soviets that resulted in the massacre of the Warsaw Ghetto – the surviving Jews were encouraged to rise up, and then the Soviets sat on their hands and waited until the Germans finished before resuming their advance.

But the point is, we do not denegrate a whole race or ethnic group. To go that way is to go the way of the Holocaust, with a new crop of victims. The fact that Arab or Islamic terrorism is mostly in the news now doesn’t justify condemning ALL Arabs, or Islam.

And to deny that Muslims have supported us – more Muslims have died fighting on our side than Americans in this war – is simply wrong.
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Anyone care to respond to Jaydog?? Vern, Richard? I’m curious to see your response.
 
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Richardols:
A site with an ax to grind IMO. Sorry…
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Find me a Holocaust site that DOESN’T have an axe to grind!

Studying the Holocaust is difficult because there are so many axes to grind – on the one hand, there are those who seek what they can never have, justice. On the other are those who seek to deny as much as possible – often because they or their immediate ancestors were participants.

But I think we can fairly sum it up by saying it was a horrific and complex crime, with many participants, in every nation where the Nazis ruled. Some nations, like Denmark, were mostly heroic. Others, like Croatia and the Ukrane were far more willing to collaborate.

But in EVERY nation the Nazis found people to run the government, people to man the police force of the puppet rulers, and to carry out their edicts.
 
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IsaacSheen:
Anyone care to respond to Jaydog?? Vern, Richard? I’m curious to see your response.
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John Adams, writing to John Marshal (as I recall) discussed “Lawyer logic.” He pointed out that what is legal and lawyerly isn’t necessarily even common sense in the real world.

What do we want in the Middle East? If we want more generations of warfare, that won’t be hard to arrange. If we want peace, it will be much more difficult.

Now, as I said, there are only two general solutions, a one-state solution and a two-state solution.

In the one state solution, Israel can have all the land from the Jordan to the sea. But what about the people who live there? Will they all be granted full Israeli citizenship? If not, how can Israel continue to call herself a democracy?

If they ARE granted full Israeli citizenship, how long will Israel remain a Jewish state?

Surely no one advocates driving them out at gunpoint! Not only would that not be inhuman, but it wouldn’t bring peace – the people and their descendants would have a lasting reason to continue the war.

In the two-state solution, we have to accept as legitimate the Palestinian desire for a homeland. If we are going to do that, we have to make it a generous one – leaving no cause for rancor after the borders are drawn.
 
vern humphrey:
In the two-state solution, we have to accept as legitimate the Palestinian desire for a homeland. If we are going to do that, we have to make it a generous one – leaving no cause for rancor after the borders are drawn.
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Ah, generous, no Jews you mean?
 
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IsaacSheen:
Ah, generous, no Jews you mean?
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Not at all – but like Palestinians living in Israel, Jews living in Palestine would be subject to the law of the land in which they live, and would take citizenship in the nation of Palestine.
 
What I meant is, anything generous enough to satisfy the Palestinians who want the land we are all discussing, would have to totally dissolve Israel.
 
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