Is it a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hello Gottle of Geer,

Someone else’s inaccurate or flawed definition of “Catholic veneration”, which is not worship and does not mean “worship” is irrelevant to this discussion. In today’s world where information is at our fingertips and the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Catholic Encyclopedia is available on-line, there is no excuse for this.

It’s as relevant as could be - because those “someone elses” are the ones making the judgement that (what we call) hyperdulia is “worship” (in the sense of (what we call) latria). Protestants cannot be expected to have an RC theology of worship, any more than RCs can be expected to have a Calvinist or Dispensationalist ecclesiology. We don’t expect our Orthodox brethren to have an RC theology of the sacraments - so why should we expect Presbyterians or Anglicans or Baptists to have an RC theology of worship ?​

The point is, notwho is “right” - but, what is the doctrine & the theology behind the judgement made ? We need to understand the doctrines & theologies of others before we can understand why they condemn our own. If we can’t be bothered even to make the effort to understand why they think as they do, why should they bother doing so ?

The question of which Church or creed or doctrine is “right”, comes after the gaining of knowledge & understanding of the beliefs of others - not before it.

Some anti-Catholics and “Protestants” have made this up and are the ones who have tried to say that veneration and worship (in the context of Catholicism) mean one and the same thing and they do not.

Not by the standards of our doctrine & theology, agreed.​

Some have done this to slander Catholicism and in some cases use false rhetoric like this to pull Catholics away from their own Faith and to try and bolster their own “religious” argument. Additionally, there are some who do knowingly repeat this lie.

Veneration is a “Catholic word”, so I think the Catholic Church gets to say what it means, don’t you? Does anyone here have a Catholic source that “says’ that veneration of Mary is the same thing as worshiping God? I don’t think so.

Words have no religion - they are used by (say) RCs, to express Catholic theology; but that doesn’t mean that Catholicism owns them. Apart from other considerations, a great many words used in Catholic theology have a long history of pre-Christian use. One might as well try to patent or monopolise the air ​

We can say what words mean as used within Catholic doctrine - but not in any other. Some distinctions:

• What baptism means within Calvinism, is not for RCs to say, but for Calvinists
• What baptism means within RCism, is for RCs to say, not for others
• No one is entitled to impute to a Church an understanding of a doctrine that it doesn’t hold - Catholics can’t impute to Calvinists a Catholic understanding of baptism
• Whether one agrees with what other Christians hold on (say) baptism is irrelevant to understanding what they hold. Doctrines need to be reported accurately, if criticism of them by Christians who reject them is to be well-informed & fair.
• Non-Catholic reports of Catholic doctrine need to be accurate as statements of what the CC teaches - & the same care must be taken by us when we report the beliefs of others

Catholicism is a monotheistic (one God) religion. Are you implying that those who say that Catholics “worship” Mary do not know that Catholicism is a monotheistic religion?

It is not always obvious - it’s quite possible they don’t. What we claim is fine as theory or words; that we really believe what we say we believe is not always self-evident. Devotion to Mary can very easily seem to differ from polytheism in name only.​

It’s all very well for us to say “X is (only) an abuse” - but how are people to know that before being told? If something is an abuse, & is not reformed, what are other Christians to think ? If something is tolerated for a good while, no wonder if a non-Catholic thinks it is in agreement with RCism.

This is not a semantical argument,

Semantics are at the heart of it​

this is a case where some persons outside of Catholicism made-up the definition of a Catholic word, which is false and some have repeated this falsehood knowing that it was false.

The question is: “Is it a Christian sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?”

The answer is simple – Yes

My comments are of a general nature for the most part and are directed to those who this thread applies to, the persons who knowingly lie about Catholicism. I think that we can both agree, that unfortunately, there are some out there who make this thread relevant.

Peace

The exceptionless view of lying common to St. Augustine, John Wesley, & Kant, is very hard to apply. There is also the difficulty of defining lying. That lying is - at least often - wrong is a reason not to accuse others of it. So ISTM best to avoid such accusations.​

One POV worth nothing is, that those who are (AIW) “misbelievers” have no right to be dealt with fairly - therefore, lying to them is no sin. From this to misdecribing their beliefs is a short step.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Jimmy,
I think the key word in your question is"knowingly".

Exactly ​

For me to make a statement about what Catholics believe, it is up to me to understand what, indeed, they believe.
To say “Catholics worship Mary” is not true, because ***Catholics ***don’t believe that they worship Mary. They have specific and credible explanations for what they do. If, knowing this, I continue to say “Catholics worship Mary” that would then be a lie, and a sin, even if in my belief system I consider it “worship”. What I can say is, “in my belief system we don’t venerate Mary in the same way because, for us, it appears to be worship, but we understand your point of view.”

From Luther’s Small Catechism: The 8th Commandment
You Shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
What does this mean?
Answer: We should fear and love God, and so we should not tell lies about our neighbor, nor betray, slander, or defame him, but should apologize for him, speak well of him, and interpret charitably all that he does.

Charitable interpretation is equally fundamental in Catholic moral teaching: incredible, but true ​

 

[JonNC]

Jimmy and all,
Does this work in reverse? I will rephrase my own quote from before. Hope this isn’t confusing. The crossed out words are replaced by those in bold print.

To say "-]Catholics worship Mary/-] Lutherans don’t have the Eucharist" is not true, because -]Catholics don’t/-] Lutherans believe that they -]worship Mary/-] do have the Eucharist. They have specific and credible explanations for what they do. If, knowing this, I continue to say “-]Catholics worship Mary/-] Lutherans don’t have the Eucharist” that would then be a lie, and a sin, even if in my belief system I -]consider it "worship/-]"believe they don’t. What I can say is, “in my belief system we -]don’t venerate Mary in the same way because, for us, it appears to be worship/-], believe we are only Church with the Eucharist, but we understand your point of view.”

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hello Gottle of Geer, I don’t know about you….

Your quote-
The question of which Church or creed or doctrine is “right”, comes after the gaining of knowledge & understanding of the beliefs of others - not before it.

No it doesn’t, how could it “come after” if all other non-Catholic Christian religions followed Catholicism? It would be for instance, impossible “to gain of knowledge & understanding of the beliefs” of Protestant Christians prior to Protestantism. What other non-Catholic Christians believe does not shape my Catholic faith.

Your quote-
What we claim is fine as theory or words; that we really believe what we say we believe is not always self-evident.

My theory is that you are not a Roman Catholic; please go here, here and here, for the rest of my response.

Peace

 

[Jimmy_B]

Is it a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?

For example – When non-Catholic “Christians” knowingly perpetuates the false myth that “Catholics worship Mary”; are they committing a sin? Is it a mortal sin? Are any false statements regarding Catholicism or any other religion a violation of the 8th Commandment?

The Eighth Commandment – “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor”

The Ten Commandments, also here.

Your Thoughts?

---

**NINE WAYS OF BEING AN ACCESSORY **
TO ANOTHER’S SIN:

---

**1. **By Counsel
**2. **By Command
**3. **By Consent
**4. **By Concealment
**5. **By Defense of Evil Done
**6. **By Partaking
**7. **By Provocation
**8. **By Praise
**9. **By Silence

 

[happygal]

Is it a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?

For example – When non-Catholic “Christians” knowingly perpetuates the false myth that “Catholics worship Mary”; are they committing a sin? Is it a mortal sin? Are any false statements regarding Catholicism or any other religion a violation of the 8th Commandment?

The Eighth Commandment – “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor”

The Ten Commandments, also here.

Your Thoughts?

Sin ?? Anyway , God will forgive…moreover i believe most christian does not 100% understand catholicism so where is there to create a sin purposely…

 

[Jimmy_B]

Sin ?? Anyway , God will forgive…moreover i believe most christian does not 100% understand catholicism so where is there to create a sin purposely…

True, some don’t know any better…then there are those former Catholics… and many of them do… right?

Peace

 

[peary]

I don’t think that those who say things against Catholicism generally have any comprehension of Catholicism to begin with. And most who do this actually have no clue about Catholicism or what they are saying.

 

[JonNC]

I don’t think that those who say things against Catholicism generally have any comprehension of Catholicism to begin with. And most who do this actually have no clue about Catholicism or what they are saying.

True, but if I, as a Lutheran, speak out against certain Catholic teachings, I have an obligation to at least have an understanding of what that teaching is. Same in reverse. To otherwise do so is intentional ingorance. Could intentional ignorance still violate the eighth commandment??

Jon

 

[Jimmy_B]

True, but if I, as a Lutheran, speak out against certain Catholic teachings, I have an obligation to at least have an understanding of what that teaching is. Same in reverse. To otherwise do so is intentional ingorance. Could intentional ignorance still violate the eighth commandment??

Jon

I believe knowledge and intent are required…right?

 

[JonNC]

I believe knowledge and intent are required…right?

Yes.

 

[SIA]

Is it a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?

For example – When non-Catholic “Christians” knowingly perpetuates the false myth that “Catholics worship Mary”; are they committing a sin? Is it a mortal sin? Are any false statements regarding Catholicism or any other religion a violation of the 8th Commandment?

The Eighth Commandment – “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor”

The Ten Commandments, also here.

Your Thoughts?

Is it a sin to institue practices not of Christ or found in Scripture? Is it a sin to lie to thousands about how one can be saved?

 

[JonNC]

Is it a sin to institue practices not of Christ or found in Scripture? Is it a sin to lie to thousands about how one can be saved?

SIA,
If I understand your point, we are not talking here about disagreements in doctrine. It is one thing to have a different point of view from Catholicism. In some areas, I do. It is quite another to intentionally misrepresent their beliefs, and then condemn them.

Jon

From Luther’s Small Catechism: The 8th Commandment
You Shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
What does this mean?
Answer: We should fear and love God, and so we should not tell lies about our neighbor, nor betray, slander, or defame him, but should apologize for him, speak well of him, and interpret charitably all that he does.

 

[Ronald_E]

True, but if I, as a Lutheran, speak out against certain Catholic teachings, I have an obligation to at least have an understanding of what that teaching is. Same in reverse. To otherwise do so is intentional ingorance. Could intentional ignorance still violate the eighth commandment??

Jon

Would this be considered a sin of ommission?

 

[JonNC]

Would this be considered a sin of ommission?

It depends upon intent, I would say.

 

[vocatio]

True, some don’t know any better…then there are those former Catholics… and many of them do… right?

Peace

I confess to Almighty God
And to you my brothers and sisters,
That I have sinned through my own fault,
In my thoughts and in my words,
In what I have done, and what I have failed to do.
I ask Blessed Mary, ever virgin,
And all the angels and saints,
And you, my brothers and sisters,
To pray for me to the Lord our God.
Amen.

I am guilty too after I crossed the Tiber the wrong way. But mostly I tried to teach non-Catholics that that wasn’t true. But when it served me after years of being blinded I became quite insensitive to it. I’ve heard stories of those that really do worship Mary, but I believe the source of that is anti-Catholic. One time I asked a woman that replied to me that Mary was more important that Jesus. There was a language barrier, so I should have assumed that she meant that Mary is important and left it at that.

But this topic is what reconvinced me that I had abandoned the true Catholicism in error. The discussion was rather uncharitable from me towards a former member of the same faith I practiced. She was a convert to Catholicism and I feared my wife was leaving our faith after promising her mom to keep her in that church. My remarks were very uncharitable and the convert called me on it. I quickly admitted that I knew the official view of the Catholic Church that worshiping Mary, Angels or the other Saints was wrong. A lie or convinced of error. Either way, I’ve confessed it and it’s over. I only share this to help others realize they can drop the act too.

 

[SIA]

SIA,
If I understand your point, we are not talking here about disagreements in doctrine. It is one thing to have a different point of view from Catholicism. In some areas, I do. It is quite another to intentionally misrepresent their beliefs, and then condemn them.

Jon

I see Catholics generalizing about ie. misrepresenting Protestants on here on a daily basis. Why is this different?

 

[Stephen_C]

I see Catholics generalizing about ie. misrepresenting Protestants on here on a daily basis. Why is this different?

Well just maybe non-Catholic Christians beliefs are not so clear to us. It is hard to nail down what all “Protestants” agree on as a whole. Example: One group believes in infant baptism, another does not. I can go on here. And we can talk about all those anti-Catholic websites (some truly vile) out there. I don’t recall ever going to a non-Catholic Church during service and placing jack chick type pamphlets on folk’s windshields. Or as one who was banned not too long ago. He and his group shadowed Pope B16 visit to the US with megaphone in hand.

This is what we as Catholic’s Believe scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm. Since it references the Bible (The complete version) Here is a link to that as well. drbo.org/ So do non-Catholic’s Christians have such a book with all that you agree as truth and agree on what it means?

 

[Ronald_E]

It depends upon intent, I would say.

I agree JonNC. Is it a sin to tell the Catholic that she or he is not saved? Or does it depend upon the underlying disposition of heart that motivates the person to make such a statement?

 

[Gamera]

I haven’t met many people who intentionally misrepresent Catholicism, but I’ve encountered countless people who recklessly misrepresent Catholicism by wild accusations, rumor-mongering, and other irresponsible conduct which circulates misconceptions about Catholicism.