Is it a child's place to discuss family dysfunction with parents?

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I’m in my late 20’s and am thinking about trying to broach some serious relationship issues with my parents. My dad is often lacking in empathy, although he can be very sensitive and easily hurt by what he calls ‘unloving’ behavior. This, combined with a reluctance to engage in drudgery (doesn’t like repetitive, dirty jobs) has led to what I see as a dysfunctional family dynamic. My dad has always praised my mom for doing the drudgework (cleaning, cooking, laundry) and told me and my sisters we should try to be like her. As a consequence, our family seems patriarchal although I suspect that this is mostly because we girls have been told that we must be self-sacrificing like mom to be good Catholics, and down the road focus on our families above and to the exclusion of all else; in contrast, the boys in our family have been approached individually and don’t associate chores with their gender or with living their religion.

I don’t want to go on too much, but I’ll explain the dysfunction briefly: Dad is hyper-sensitive, and although he works very hard at a job he should enjoy (lots of variety) always complains that he doesn’t like his work. He would rather engage in literary pursuits. He likes to argue, and when I was a teen we would have loud arguments over minor disagreements, because I didn’t know when to shut my mouth and be quiet. He’s big on silencing us kids, even now that we are getting older, insisting that if he demands silence that everyone must obey immediately. In these arguments when I was a teenager, he would sometimes loom over me, and he has hit me a couple times, never hard enough to really hurt, just enough to be scary. I’d go off to my room, and he would follow and insist that the door be opened. He has a lot of pride, and I know I’ve pushed his buttons, but the most disrespectful thing I said at these times was “I hate you!” (after my inevitable, mind-choking apology, he would say “I accept your apology, but will remember that you said that when I’m on my deathbed”). He was a lot more aggressive with one of my brothers, but he doesn’t loom angrily at the youngest (and biggest). During tough economic times, I fell into the habit of being his emotional crutch, and we spent a lot of time on projects together. One time he told me I had a demon of selfishness in me when I went off by myself to try to get some mental space for a few hours. All this makes him sound like a terrible father, but I don’t know if he knows how to be a really good one. The Catholicism he was raised in was very image-focused.

My mom has taken up a lot of house work, but was/is essentially on her own managing the house and us kids. She is very conflict avoidant, but she can also be very passive aggressive. She is self-sacrificing to the extreme, and the only way to take some stuff off her plate is to do it instead. There’s a lot of emotional management with dad. Since we were teens, she has complained a lot about dad. Every time I’m alone with her, she tells me about the most recent inconsiderate thing he has done. She doesn’t want to discuss it with him, though, and so there’s a lot of frustration that he just doesn’t know about. She won’t say anything, and he’d be either mad or devastated to hear how much anger there is behind the scenes. He hates criticism, though, so if she said anything he would get mad too. Dad often says derogatory things about mom’s family, who are not Catholic. He claims that his family (which is not very loving) has more of God’s grace working in them–seemingly visible because they are richer and better looking.

Home is the most stressful place in the world to me. I can’t go home without feeling tense. When I’m there, I feel like my mind kind of wafts away so that I can get things done, cook, try to do some stuff so mom doesn’t have to. My faith is almost non-existent, and going to church or praying makes me sick, it feels like my mind just isn’t there. I love my parents, but I know that if I start an argument they will probably not want to talk with me for a while. They have been good parents, encouraging us children to get good educations, although all the work on that front has been through mom. (Years ago, when I got into an Ivy League, dad told me that it wasn’t my hard work, it was mom’s, and I shouldn’t be prideful.) I am in grad school now and moving out of the country soon.

I met a really wonderful man last year, and although he is not Christian, he is sweet, loving and dutiful. The problem is, whenever I think about our future, I’m so afraid that I’m not seeing the signs that lead to the relationship my parents have. I often look at him and try to see his hidden motives, and figure out if he wants me to be a SAHM so that I can take care of him like I do my father. It’s hard to even think about a Catholic marriage and vowing to raise Catholic kids, because I don’t want to go near a church. I’ve been wondering if trying to talk to my parents about this would help them (and me), but I don’t know if it would just be disrespectful. I am also deeply afraid that maybe I’m blowing a lot of things out of proportion and that this is actually normal. Are Catholics supposed to self-sacrifice even if it feels like they are losing their minds? Would it be disrespectful to talk to my parents about this? Am I wrong in what I’m perceiving here? How can I keep our family intact and not lose my parents and brothers and sisters?
 
Would it be disrespectful to talk to my parents about this?
I think the better question to ask is:

“Would it be **constructive **to talk to my parents about this?”

My impression from your post is that the answer is no.

May I say that I really don’t think Catholicism has any particular monopoly on patriarchal family structures or dynamics. And conversely there are plenty of Catholic/Christian men - I count myself as one of them - who are very egalitarian with regard to household chores. The bottom line is that your decision of who to marry is one of the most important you can possibly make and you should take great care. Get to know the person extremely well and have frank discussions about these sorts of issues.

Please do not blame the Church for your dad’s failings. A good Catholic husband and father is one who sacrifices for his family. He loves them as Christ loves the Church - which is to say, a love of sacrifice and service. A husband/father who does not live this way is not following the ways of Christ and the Church.
 
I think the better question to ask is:

“Would it be **constructive **to talk to my parents about this?”

My impression from your post is that the answer is no.

May I say that I really don’t think Catholicism has any particular monopoly on patriarchal family structures or dynamics. And conversely there are plenty of Catholic/Christian men - I count myself as one of them - who are very egalitarian with regard to household chores. The bottom line is that your decision of who to marry is one of the most important you can possibly make and you should take great care. Get to know the person extremely well and have frank discussions about these sorts of issues.

Please do not blame the Church for your dad’s failings. A good Catholic husband and father is one who sacrifices for his family. He loves them as Christ loves the Church - which is to say, a love of sacrifice and service. A husband/father who does not live this way is not following the ways of Christ and the Church.
I agree completely with this.

There are lots of excuses people give for their bad behavior, and religion is frequently one of them. I grew up in a secular, nominally Christian home, but a lot of what you say about your father reminds me of mine.

There is sacrifice involved in loving relationships, absolutely, but that is nowhere near the same thing as being a doormat. You might consider counseling for yourself just so you can get a handle on healthy relationship communication (which is more than just romantic relationships but also between coworkers or friends, for example) and learn to recognize signs of manipulative behavior and red flags. Lots of people are blindsided by those, and you are wise to consider that your perspective may be skewed.
 
Part of the beauty of leaving the family nest is gaining the perspective to see dysfunction and trying not to replicate it in your future nuclear family. My husband had a shock when he went to university and saw how others lived, because it revealed how distorted his own upbringing had been.

Many of the traits you describe are probably deeply ingrained in your parents, and it might be difficult to disentangle the innate ones from maladaptive coping mechanisms that have evolved over the years. Either way, your parents’ marriage is theirs to enjoy or suffer, and your responsibility is to discern your core values before finding a spouse and starting a family.

In your shoes, I would accept and love my family for the many good traits they have, appreciate the foundation you’ve been given, politely overlook their quirks, and focus on living an upright independent life. Really dig into the teachings of the church–especially the work of the church doctors–and find a good spiritual director to discuss your thoughts with on an active basis, and figure out what YOU stand for before getting serious in any relationship. I came back to the church when I set out to “prove” atheism. Your Ivy League chops will position you ideally to delve into the beautiful scholarly tradition of Catholicism.

And, if you can, I strongly recommend praying a daily rosary. It will be the most valuable. 15 minutes of your day, irrespective of how bad you think you might be at it. Here’s how:

rosary-center.org/howto.htm#loaded

Good luck!
 
What would be the purpose of telling your parents everything you think is wrong with them? I don’t think it would be constructive or beneficial at all. What you should do, now that you are an adult, is draw boundaries with your father regarding how you expect to be treated and spoken to and stick by them.

I don’t really see what religion has to do with your situation. I would not blame your parents’ shortcomings on their faith. Marriage and parenthood involve a great deal of self-sacrifice, but so does any vocation. That isn’t a Catholic thing, that’s universal. We give our strength, time, and talent to that which is most important to us. Another thing that is universal is that women have to clean their houses. Whether they have a dirt floor hut in Africa or a penthouse in New York, they have to keep it clean. Whether they have seven children or one cat, they have to do dishes. Whether they stay at home or go to work, they still have to get the laundry done. So I wouldn’t think less of your mother because she stays home and cleans the house. Even if she had a job, she would still not want to live in a pigpen.
 
I don’t have anything to add to excellent advice you’ve received on how to approach this.

I only want to mention that the pattern of patriarchy/subservience you described is almost identical to one I’ve observed in a Protestant family I was close to. When I saw it there, I wondered if it had something to do with Protestantism, in contrast with Catholicism. I’ve found it informative to see that it happens in Catholicism to.
 
Sounds like you have come a long way, you SHOULD be proud of yourself! I also applaud you for being cautious about your potential spouse. Have you ever heard the old saying “We marry our parents?” Too often, people who grew up in a dysfunctional family, gravitate to what is familiar.

That does not mean that you are doing it now, or jumping at shadows either. Just relax, but be open to signs, and be frank with your concerns. Better to know now than later. If you are afraid to bring up your concerns to your new guy, you should be very concerned, get opinions from someone who knows you both if possible.

Take care!
 
Sounds like you have come a long way, you SHOULD be proud of yourself! I also applaud you for being cautious about your potential spouse. Have you ever heard the old saying “We marry our parents?” Too often, people who grew up in a dysfunctional family, gravitate to what is familiar.
The Protestant family I was close to (post 7) was actually my ex-wife’s. She very much resented her father’s dominance and bullying within her family, but rather than marry another bully (like her father), she married someone that she herself could bully and tyrannize (me) and in our marriage behaved very much like her father had in her parents’ marriage. She also admitted that part of her reason for marrying me was that her parents strongly objected, and it was a way of defying them.

And, yes, qiumei has come a long way, and should be very proud of herself! :yup:
 
Thank you for the advice, everyone. I will pray and think about this. Alphawoman, underacloud, the value-systems issue is definitely something I need to discuss with my boyfriend.
Remember too, that everyone has their own perspective and biases.
This is very true. I love my parents, even though these things can be frustrating, but sometimes it is hard to see them as people just trying to figure things out, not all-knowing.
You might consider counseling for yourself just so you can get a handle on healthy relationship communication (which is more than just romantic relationships but also between coworkers or friends, for example) and learn to recognize signs of manipulative behavior and red flags.
Pensmama, I agree about the recognizing red flags. It’s easy to be over-sensitive to these, actually, and be suspicious that people are trying to pull something even when they’re not.
What you should do, now that you are an adult, is draw boundaries with your father regarding how you expect to be treated and spoken to and stick by them.
This is good advice. Do you draw boundaries by sitting down and talking them out, or do you just sort of do it by yourself by not reacting? What are important boundaries to have with parents? It’s really hard to tell what is too much (for independence) and too little (for family love and loyalty).
. . .So I wouldn’t think less of your mother because she stays home and cleans the house. Even if she had a job, she would still not want to live in a pigpen.
I don’t think less of my mother for staying at home. I love and respect my mother, and am concerned that my father does almost nothing to help around the house, leaving most of the burden for errands and house maintenance on my mom. This is bad for her because if he pitched in with the house or the kids she could take some time to maintain her health. It’s especially frustrating because he often talks about how much my mother sacrifices for us without consistently trying to make things easier for her.
 
The Protestant family I was close to (post 7) was actually my ex-wife’s. She very much resented her father’s dominance and bullying within her family, but rather than marry another bully (like her father), she married someone that she herself could bully and tyrannize (me) and in our marriage behaved very much like her father had in her parents’ marriage. She also admitted that part of her reason for marrying me was that her parents strongly objected, and it was a way of defying them.
This is actually something that worries me. I understand my parents, and I’m usually manipulative when I’m at home just to keep the peace (lots of cooing about stuff to keep everyone happy). I’ve lost friends because they thought I was dishonestly always cheerful, but it’s hard not to just smile and chatter because that keeps people happy. It’s dishonest, but if I don’t check out that way things get frustrating.

On the other hand, I think a lot of my parents’ issues come from deep insecurity in childhood. Our childhoods were actually very very good, except for these issues. I just don’t want them to spend the next 30 years with this dynamic, because it makes them both so unhappy. Do couples in this position usually see a priest or a counselor? Perhaps suggesting marriage counseling and helping find a counselor would be a better way of dealing with this than talking to them myself?
 
I’m hearing, what will this man be like in the future? Nobody can say. One indicator is his father. How does he hold his father in his thoughts & how does he interact with his father? Is it a nice relationship or is it tense also? Chances are subconsciencely he will imitate what his father has done. For that matter, you will too.

Now, our parents teach us everything. You cannot change anyone but yourself. You cannot change you mom, dad, sisters, brothers, friends, boyfriends or peers. You can process what has failed and try to exercise discipline to avoid such behaviors in the future. It is worthy to keep an open relationship with these people who drive you crazy, because someday you may become them. “I do not know what is scarier. That I am becoming my mother OR that my daughters are becoming me” -unknown … And I ponder this often now that I have children.
 
Some great advice here, in my opinion. If your father tries to exert his authority over you in ways which are not appropriate adult-to-adult, I would just say ‘Thanks a lot for the advice, dad but I have thought about this and have decided to do this/go there/whatever.’
 
I don’t think I’m qualified myself, but it would be useful if someone could explain to the OP how to draw boundaries without venting. I feel that telling her to draw boundaries while also telling her not to vent would not be very constructive without showing how to reconcile the two — it could even add to her troubles (through frustration with being unable to achieve a set goal without engaging in ‘outlawed’ behaviour as a means of getting there).
 
This is good advice. Do you draw boundaries by sitting down and talking them out, or do you just sort of do it by yourself by not reacting? What are important boundaries to have with parents? It’s really hard to tell what is too much (for independence) and too little (for family love and loyalty).
My family wasn’t a “sit down and talk about it” family. My family was a “This is how it’s going to be” family. So, I don’t know much about “sitting down and talking”. If that’s how you do it in your family, then I guess it’s worth a try. My method is to expect to be treated with respect, and if something happens then I say something along the lines of, “I don’t like the way you are talking to me, so this conversation is over.” Then I hang up or leave. I haven’t had to do that in a long time, because I did it consistently years ago and it isn’t a problem anymore. Another line that works is, “I have said what I have to say on the subject, let’s talk about something else.” In order for this to be successful, one has to be willing to stop the argument and simply remove themselves from the situation. It doesn’t matter if the parents don’t see anything wrong with what they were doing. What matters is that they know it bothers you and it needs to stop.
 
I don’t think I’m qualified myself, but it would be useful if someone could explain to the OP how to draw boundaries without venting. I feel that telling her to draw boundaries while also telling her not to vent would not be very constructive without showing how to reconcile the two — it could even add to her troubles (through frustration with being unable to achieve a set goal without engaging in ‘outlawed’ behaviour as a means of getting there).
Well, boundary setting can be as simple as, “No, I won’t do that” or “No, please stop [x].” And repeat as necessary (and in general repeating is required more often to begin with, with following through of consequences as Allegra mentions.) When you find yourself wanting to scream at them, “Because you ruined my childhood with your crazy!!!” then that’s probably not something to say. It should stop way before that point.

No joke: I have practiced saying boundary setting things with a counselor, and in front of a mirror. It really, really helps. I learn to recognize what my body feels like when it is calm, and do breathing exercises, etc. to help it stay calm. There are a few trainings I did for work on how to avoid “escalating” situations, and it focuses on learning those feelings as well as noticing signs of escalation in yourself and the other person. When both people are passionate and escalated, it is almost impossible to turn the volume back down.

Not saying I always succeed, but knowing those signs is helpful.

(As an aside, this is also a very good lesson for parenting down the road - when you practice boundary setting you are learning that you have to always mean what you say, and to follow through. That is a great skill when one is dealing with a strong-willed toddler or preschooler. ;))
 
My family wasn’t a “sit down and talk about it” family. My family was a “This is how it’s going to be” family. So, I don’t know much about “sitting down and talking”. If that’s how you do it in your family, then I guess it’s worth a try. My method is to expect to be treated with respect, and if something happens then I say something along the lines of, “I don’t like the way you are talking to me, so this conversation is over.” Then I hang up or leave. I haven’t had to do that in a long time, because I did it consistently years ago and it isn’t a problem anymore. Another line that works is, “I have said what I have to say on the subject, let’s talk about something else.” In order for this to be successful, one has to be willing to stop the argument and simply remove themselves from the situation. It doesn’t matter if the parents don’t see anything wrong with what they were doing. What matters is that they know it bothers you and it needs to stop.
I think the “talk about it” approach is really only successful in situations where there are already high levels of trust and there aren’t manipulative tactics or games being played. There are lots of people who engage in what they intend to be constructive conversations but they get beaten down, or misled into thinking progress has been or will be made when the situation ends up the same or worse (because now the manipulator knows exactly how to cow you without you knowing it).

Talk is cheap and lots of people who have no interest in changing their actions are smooth talkers. If you’re a person who likes to work through your feelings out loud, you need to do that with a trusted person, not a person who is treating you badly.
 
My family wasn’t a “sit down and talk about it” family. My family was a “This is how it’s going to be” family. So, I don’t know much about “sitting down and talking”. If that’s how you do it in your family, then I guess it’s worth a try. My method is to expect to be treated with respect, and if something happens then I say something along the lines of, “I don’t like the way you are talking to me, so this conversation is over.” Then I hang up or leave. I haven’t had to do that in a long time, because I did it consistently years ago and it isn’t a problem anymore. Another line that works is, “I have said what I have to say on the subject, let’s talk about something else.” In order for this to be successful, one has to be willing to stop the argument and simply remove themselves from the situation. It doesn’t matter if the parents don’t see anything wrong with what they were doing. What matters is that they know it bothers you and it needs to stop.
^^ This is some very good practical advice right here.

Basically, when something comes up and you don’t want it to happen, you say politely but firmly that you will not be treated that way, and then demonstrate your intention by not allowing it to continue.

An example might be that if your father yelled at you to be quiet, or towered over you to make you agree with him, you could say, “I do not allow anyone to speak to me like that. Please lower your voice.” His initial reaction will probably be to yell at you that no one can tell him what to do. You reply, “I’m sorry you feel that way, but I don’t let people speak to me like that. Bye!” and walk out the door. Likewise, if your mom calls to complain about your dad, you say, “I don’t really want to talk about Dad like that. It upsets me, and isn’t very constructive. We’ve done that a lot in the last few years, and nothing has changed, so let’s try something different. How was church last week?” Her: “But he did X! And Y! And Z!” You: I don’t want to talk about him like that anymore. I came across this really interesting recipe yesterday for chicken; have you tried something like that?" Her: “But he’s an insensitive jerk!” You: “I need to go now. Have a good week!” (Hang up the phone.)

Basically, think of them almost like irritating customers: Be polite and courteous and respectful, but don’t let them use you like an emotional punching bag.
 
I’m in my late 20’s and am thinking about trying to broach some serious relationship issues with my parents.

Are you out of the house. If so, congratulations!

My mom has taken up a lot of house work, but was/is essentially on her own managing the house and us kids. She is very conflict avoidant, but she can also be very passive aggressive. She is self-sacrificing to the extreme, and the only way to take some stuff off her plate is to do it instead. There’s a lot of emotional management with dad. Since we were teens, she has complained a lot about dad. Every time I’m alone with her, she tells me about the most recent inconsiderate thing he has done.

"I think you need to talk to dad about this, not me, mom."

She doesn’t want to discuss it with him, though, and so there’s a lot of frustration that he just doesn’t know about. She won’t say anything, and he’d be either mad or devastated to hear how much anger there is behind the scenes. He hates criticism, though, so if she said anything he would get mad too. Dad often says derogatory things about mom’s family, who are not Catholic. He claims that his family (which is not very loving) has more of God’s grace working in them–seemingly visible because they are richer and better looking.

Home is the most stressful place in the world to me. I can’t go home without feeling tense.

Of course.

When I’m there, I feel like my mind kind of wafts away so that I can get things done, cook, try to do some stuff so mom doesn’t have to. My faith is almost non-existent, and going to church or praying makes me sick, it feels like my mind just isn’t there.

**How about trying a Catholic liturgical or musical or devotional type that won’t remind you of your family? Example: If they are traditionalists, do a more contemporary Mass, or vice versa. Or do devotions that they never did or get involved with groups that they have never been in. Catholicism is a big enough place that it should be possible to find a room of your own. **

I love my parents, but I know that if I start an argument they will probably not want to talk with me for a while. They have been good parents, encouraging us children to get good educations, although all the work on that front has been through mom. (Years ago, when I got into an Ivy League, dad told me that it wasn’t my hard work, it was mom’s, and I shouldn’t be prideful.) I am in grad school now and moving out of the country soon.

Yay!

I met a really wonderful man last year, and although he is not Christian, he is sweet, loving and dutiful.

**Are you settling? There will be nice men wherever it is you are going, too. **

The problem is, whenever I think about our future, I’m so afraid that I’m not seeing the signs that lead to the relationship my parents have. I often look at him and try to see his hidden motives, and figure out if he wants me to be a SAHM so that I can take care of him like I do my father.
**
There are lots of SAHMs that don’t have the kind of relationship your parents have. Your parents’ relationship was 30 years in the making. It’s very unlikely that you will have exactly the same one, just like no two trees grow into exactly the same shape.

How about picking up some books on marriage? Even a good secular one will be helpful–see, for example, John Gottman.
**

It’s hard to even think about a Catholic marriage and vowing to raise Catholic kids, because I don’t want to go near a church. I’ve been wondering if trying to talk to my parents about this would help them (and me), but I don’t know if it would just be disrespectful. I am also deeply afraid that maybe I’m blowing a lot of things out of proportion and that this is actually normal.

I don’t think that would help any of you at that point. Talk to a priest and talk to a therapist, and do a lot of that before you consider getting married.

Are Catholics supposed to self-sacrifice even if it feels like they are losing their minds? Would it be disrespectful to talk to my parents about this? Am I wrong in what I’m perceiving here? How can I keep our family intact and not lose my parents and brothers and sisters?
I don’t think it’s your job to keep your family intact. You are an adult and you can see as much or as little of them as you choose to.
 
I
I met a really wonderful man last year, and although he is** not **Christian, he is sweet, loving and dutiful. The problem is, whenever I think about our future, I’m so afraid that I’m not seeing the signs that lead to the relationship my parents have. I often look at him and try to see his hidden motives, and figure out if he wants me to be a SAHM so that I can take care of him like I do my father. It’s hard to even think about a Catholic marriage and vowing to raise Catholic kids, because I don’t want to go near a church.
First, I think being Catholic is the best since I can always take everything to God. But that is just me.

However, I am VERY confused by your post. If your boyfriend is NOT Christian, why would you be concerned about raising your kids Catholic? He obviously is not pressuring you to.
 
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