Is it a mortal sin to lie and deny God at gunpoint to save ones life?

[Tietjen]

More pertinently, what on earth makes you think the gunman would NOT kill you or those around you just because you stated you DIDN’T believe in God?

Nothing. So, are you saying that you should deny God and hope for the best? If that’s not what you are saying then why are questioning me for stating that I would not deny God?

Edith Stein, a convert from Judaism to Catholicism in her teens, was sent to a concentration camp, and executed there, in WWII. Her Nazi captors certainly didn’t believe that she wasn’t a Jew, even though she certainly told them as much, not to save her skin but because as a nun she believed strongly in her Catholic faith.

I don’t know her story, but I do know that the Nazi’s did not like Catholics either. So even if she had been able to convince them that she wasn’t Jewish but rather a Catholic, I doubt that it would have made any difference to them.

 

[Tosk]

The goal in any situation is to serve Jesus the best way that we can. Even if what we want is something good like dying a glorious death by being martyred we have to realize that it might not be the best way to serve God. In this situation the best thing to do is fight and go on living the martyrdom of everyday life. choosing martyrdom and leaving your spouse and children to face a crazed lunatic alone would be the coward’s way out.

 

[bilop]

The goal in any situation is to serve Jesus the best way that we can. Even if what we want is something good like dying a glorious death by being martyred we have to realize that it might not be the best way to serve God. In this situation the best thing to do is fight and go on living the martyrdom of everyday life. choosing martyrdom and leaving your spouse and children to face a crazed lunatic alone would be the coward’s way out.

Yes. You should clearly fight and proclaim your belief in God. No one is saying you need to passively accept death, just that you should not deny God.

God Bless

 

[Tosk]

Yes. You should clearly fight and proclaim your belief in God. No one is saying you need to passively accept death, just that you should not deny God.

God Bless

yup, or you could use trickery if that gave you a better chance

 

[trayletha]

The situation of most martyrs – from the mother and sons in Maccabees to ancient Rome to Tudor England to Nazi Germany to Communist Russia – is much different.

Exactly!!

Someone earlier talked about not standing up for your beliefs if front of your family and the example that would set; they mentioned a daughter who had sex and got pregnant because the guy would have dropped her off in the middle of nowhere if she hadn’t (or something like that). I think a closer comparison would be if she was forced at gunpoint…would you tell her she should have died rather than submit under those circumstances? No because life is sacred, and should be defended.

 

[bilop]

Exactly!!

Someone earlier talked about not standing up for your beliefs if front of your family and the example that would set; they mentioned a daughter who had sex and got pregnant because the guy would have dropped her off in the middle of nowhere if she hadn’t (or something like that). I think a closer comparison would be if she was forced at gunpoint…would you tell her she should have died rather than submit under those circumstances? No because life is sacred, and should be defended.

It would not be a sin to submit, but it would be heroic virtue to resist, even unto death.

There is a canonized Saint, St. Maria Goretti, who died defending her purity at the age of 12.

God Bless

 

[Brooklyn]

I haven’t read all the replies, so I apologize if I’m parroting anyone else.

To deny God is always wrong, no getting around that. It is a sin. But is it mortal? Objectively it most certainly is, even under duress in such a situation. But is it a mortal sin for everyone? That would have to be between the person and God. Now, one thing God promises is to never give us more than we can handle. So I would say that if we are allowed to be in that situation, God has promised us the grace to do the right thing, if we are willing to say yes to that grace. Certainly that is the only way to understand how martyrs down through the centures were able to say no to life and yes to Christ.

Right now none of us are facing a gun in our face, so we don’t need that grace right now. But if the situation should ever happen, God will give us what we need to handle it and do the right thing, if we are willing to turn to him. Remember the young girl who refused to deny Christ in the Columbine massacre and was murdered as a result? Where did she get the courage to do such a thing? It could only be the grace of God.

We cannot read the mind of another human being, it is impossible for us to judge anyone else. That is why Our Lord said it is wrong to judge, that has not been given to us. So I would never presume to say that such a person who denies God is automatically in a state of mortal sin. But I would say this, if you are in such a situation, and you survive it because you did deny Our Lord, you need to get some good spiritual direction, because you are in a spiritual crisis.

 

[LilyM]

It would not be a sin to submit, but it would be heroic virtue to resist, even unto death.

There is a canonized Saint, St. Maria Goretti, who died defending her purity at the age of 12.

God Bless

Exactly!!!

 

[humanavitae]

I know this is a hypothetical situation and will never occur…but the question is still interesting to think about.

What if while you are home with your spouse and kids, and someone breaks down your door and puts a gun to your head and tells you that he will shoot you unless you deny christ. What should one do at this point?

I know it is heroic and a form of martydom if one doesn’t lie…and instead witness to the faith at the expense of his/her life…
but the question is…is it a mortal sin to simply lie and give some lunatic “Lip Service” to so as to avoid getting shot in the head?

I know that NOT LYING to him would be witnessing to the truth…but is the crazy lunatic who barged into my house even worth proclaiming the truth at the expense of my life or the life of one of my family members? I don’t think so, however, I would like to know what the official catholic church teaching on this matter is.

Based on my understanding…I think every situation is different.
For example…if a Bishop is being held in an arena in front of thousands of people and asked to deny his faith or else get tortured/killed…in that case, lying might actually be a mortal sin. However, if you are alone in a house, and a gunman breaks in and asks you to renounce your faith or else get shot, even if you lie to him to save your butt, my understanding is that you did not commit a mortal sin. Even if you had full control of your senses and made a rational, informed decision to lie. Likewise the situation when it happens in front of your family. Obviousally, a family needs a father, and so there is nothing wrong with lying to a crazy gunman while he holds you at gunpoint to avoid being shot. A lot of posters are implying that when it comes to the children, it is “okay” to lie, but when it comes to his own life, if he lies and deny’s God, he is committing a mortal sin. I think in both cases, there is no mortal sin involved. Obviousally, it is more noble and courageous to die a martyr, but the question is, is it a sin to lie in these situations.

Lastly…I will add, that we cannot use all actions from the old testament as examples of living in our times. For example, McAbees2, the bible says It was noble and courageous they way he acted, (in trying to committ suicide several times and by throwing his guts on the soldiers), but St. Thomas said “it was not”.

slighly off topic…In countries like Iraq, thousands of Christians can’t even attend mass because of feat of ones life (chruches being blown up, christians being kidnapped, raped, killed, etc). Are they called to be Martyr’s and go anyway? It turns out that it is not a sin to skip mass in these situations. In fact, various times in chruch history people had to hide their faith to avoid being killed/persecuted. That is not a sin either.

 

[trayletha]

There is a canonized Saint, St. Maria Goretti, who died defending her purity at the age of 12.

I’d rather have my living child, even damaged; than a martyr’s grave.

I am more impressed by St. Maria’s forgiveness of her murderer, THAT is worthy of Sainthood.

 

[LilyM]

I’d rather have my living child, even damaged; than a martyr’s grave.

I am more impressed by St. Maria’s forgiveness of her murderer, THAT is worthy of Sainthood.

The love of God that inspired Maria to value His gift of chastity to the point where she laid down her life to preserve hers, is the selfsame love of God that inspired her to forgive her murderer. The two go hand-in-hand.

 

[trayletha]

It seems to me that you are telling me that you believe that God would prefer us to die rather than sin.

 

[Timbothefiveth]

If someone has broken in to your house and held you at gunpoint just so he could get you to deny your faith, do you really think he’s just going to spare you if you deny it? Do you really think someone in that state of mind will show you any mercy?

What would I do? I’m not sure. What should I do? Well, the choice is clear.

Matthew 10:

33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

I think trying to wrestle the gun away may be the best option. (also keep in mind about 80% of handgun wounds are not fatal) You don’t deny your faith and you may get the gun away from him.

 

[bilop]

It seems to me that you are telling me that you believe that God would prefer us to die rather than sin.

Now you’ve got it!

St. Luke, Ch 9.

24 For whosoever will save his life, shall lose it; for he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall save it.

God Bless

 

[bilop]

I think trying to wrestle the gun away may be the best option. (also keep in mind about 80% of handgun wounds are not fatal) You don’t deny your faith and you may get the gun away from him.

Sure, no reason not to fight.

God Bless

 

[CWBetts]

It seems to me that you are telling me that you believe that God would prefer us to die rather than sin.

Go and read the Pentateuch, and then come back and tell us what God thinks about breaking covenants

 

[LilyM]

It seems to me that you are telling me that you believe that God would prefer us to die rather than sin.

And not just I.

He well and truly died rather than sin, for it would’ve been a sin to run away from His death and save His hide. Or, for that matter, choose not to die at all and remain immortal, as being God He could have done. He had the free will that all humans have, including the free will to sin. And doubtless He was tempted to do so by the Devil - isn’t that why He called Peter ‘Satan’ when Peter suggested that He must not go to Jerusalem to die?

Isn’t it kinda the whole point of verses like

‘For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.’ (Matt 16:25)?

And ‘What profit it a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul?’ (Mark 8:36).

I’d like to hear how you understand those verses, if not that nothing is preferable to eternal life, which eternal life is gained primarily by striving to remain sinless, even at the cost of our physical lives.

Sin is what loses us our souls, losing our physical lives doesn’t lose our souls except in cases of frank suicide, which dying for our belief in God or dying in order to remain sinless isn’t, quite the contrary. So by necessary inference no other good is preferable to remaining sinless, not even preserving our own lives.

 

[LilyM]

Nothing. So, are you saying that you should deny God and hope for the best? If that’s not what you are saying then why are questioning me for stating that I would not deny God?

My apologies, Tietjen, I had you confused with the other poster who was advocating the denial of God.

I don’t know her story, but I do know that the Nazi’s did not like Catholics either. So even if she had been able to convince them that she wasn’t Jewish but rather a Catholic, I doubt that it would have made any difference to them.

They didn’t like Catholics, sure, but they certainly weren’t hell-bent on imprisoning or exterminating all or most members of the Catholic faith.

It was very well understood by Edith, obviously having been made clear to her by her captors, that she was being imprisoned and killed as a Jew, and probably would not have been if she had had no Jewish background.

 

[trayletha]

Go and read the Pentateuch, and then come back and tell us what God thinks about breaking covenants

Jeremah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a **new covenant **with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, F23 says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. **For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” **

Jesus is our **new **covenant - he died for our sins so that we don’t have to.

 

[LilyM]

Jeremah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a **new covenant **with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, F23 says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. **For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” **

Jesus is our **new **covenant - he died for our sins so that we don’t have to.

But by choosing to deny God, or to sin in any other way that saves our physical bodies, and in this way valuing our temporary physical wellbeing over the state of our souls, we’re thumbing our noses at His saving death.

Death is not to be feared by those who truly love God, quite the contrary. By clinging to physical life at the expense of our immortal souls we’re showing how little we trust that He has truly conquered both sin and death.