Is it a mortal sin to lie and deny God at gunpoint to save ones life?

[TheRiver]

How was the person interested in their own skin in dying for God? If the person was interested in their own skin, shouldn’t they have just renounced God instantly?

Also, why can’t the person be a self sacrifice to let the others live?

God Bless.

Chris.

I have no idea what you’re on about mate.

The gunman will shoot you, the kids and wife if you accept Jesus as your saviour, or something along those lines. If he shoots anyways, why does it matter? As long as your intent was for the safety of your wife and kids and you renounced God for their life, and not for yourself.

If saying “praise be to God” means nothing if you don’t actually mean it with your heart and soul, then why should “I renounce God” mean anything if you don’t actually mean it?

We are always told that we must mean it when we praise God, similarly we should mean it if we renounce God, renouncing God for the safety of your family is not meaning it.

Why am I going through common sense and basic logic?

 

[TheRiver]

Ok and if the gunman is holding the gun to your child’s head? Are you going the make a CHOICE that will cause your child to be murdered?

Don’t forget ‘The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church’. - Tertullian.

Tertullian also believed that women were the “gateway of the devil”. Jesus is the seed of the Church!

Well said mate.

 

[CWBetts]

Yea why wouldn’t I? I fail to see your point, I never disagreed, I simply stated your appeal to authority was fallacious, it’s philosophically incorrect to appeal to “the teachings of the church” because it has been erroneous many a-time.

I also stated that the Saints’ contribution make a fair bit of the teachings of the church, therefore it should be based on reason to accept what to follow and what not to follow. God gave reason, to use, not to keep aside and blindly follow what is being said.

All saints have been wonderful human beings no doubt, that being said I however don’t agree with all their actions. What would make this topic more interesting would an issue where a saint chooses martyrdom for themselves and others without their permission, can anyone find one?

The teachings of the Church have never been erroneous.

 

[LilyM]

Ok and if the gunman is holding the gun to your child’s head? Are you going the make a CHOICE that will cause your child to be murdered?

Don’t forget ‘The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church’. - Tertullian.

Tertullian also believed that women were the “gateway of the devil”. Jesus is the seed of the Church!

*But what about individual martyrs such as St. Thomas More, St. Maria Goretti, and St. Maximilian Kolbe? I would have to research the incident of which you speak, and see if Peter was in any real danger. If memory serves, there wasn’t really anyone of any power or influence there, but as I said, i will have to look into it. *
I’m going to look at more individual martyrs, but if Peter was in no real danger, wouldn’t his denial be a mortal sin? versus this hypothetical we are discussing where duress is being used?

Peter’s denial WAS a sin - not that I can judge it to have been mortal, God alone knows. Hence his being required to atone for his three denials, after the resurrection, by his three affirmations of love for Jesus. Such would not be required if Peter’s denials were not hurts done to Our Lord - aka sins.

“He who denies me before men, I will deny him before my Father”. That’s not church teaching, that’s straight from the lips of Jesus Christ as recorded in scripture. And it’s too inconvenient a truth to have been manufactured after the event, so we need not doubt that He actually said it. Doesn’t leave a lot of wiggle room.

 

[TheRiver]

The teachings of the Church have never been erroneous.

What do you define as “teachings of the church”? I feel we’re on a different page.

 

[bilop]

I have no idea what you’re on about mate.

The gunman will shoot you, the kids and wife if you accept Jesus as your saviour, or something along those lines. If he shoots anyways, why does it matter? As long as your intent was for the safety of your wife and kids and you renounced God for their life, and not for yourself.

If saying “praise be to God” means nothing if you don’t actually mean it with your heart and soul, then why should “I renounce God” mean anything if you don’t actually mean it?

We are always told that we must mean it when we praise God, similarly we should mean it if we renounce God, renouncing God for the safety of your family is not meaning it.

Why am I going through common sense and basic logic?

You are correct only in that it would likely not be a mortal sin if one denounced God under this extreme duress. However, it would be a sin. It is better to die a martyr, to have that heroic virtue.

St. Peter did sin mortally by denying Christ. If he had died, the other Apostles would have founded the Church. Jesus would have picked another “rock”. After all Jesus knew exactly what Peter would do before He picked him. He knew he would sin, and He knew he would repent.

God Bless

 

[jmcrae]

I have no idea what you’re on about mate.

The gunman will shoot you, the kids and wife if you accept Jesus as your saviour, or something along those lines. If he shoots anyways, why does it matter? As long as your intent was for the safety of your wife and kids and you renounced God for their life, and not for yourself.

If saying “praise be to God” means nothing if you don’t actually mean it with your heart and soul, then why should “I renounce God” mean anything if you don’t actually mean it?

We are always told that we must mean it when we praise God, similarly we should mean it if we renounce God, renouncing God for the safety of your family is not meaning it.

Why am I going through common sense and basic logic?

Sorry, but if you say “I renounce God” then whether you mean it or not, you are on public record as having renounced God. This becomes your testimony and your witness to the world. Anything you say after that - “I didn’t really mean it” - is not going to be heard.

Most of all, your children will believe that it is okay to follow the crowd when the pressure is on. “He would have put me out of the car and made me walk home if I didn’t have sex with him, Daddy, so it must have been okay, under the circumstances. I’m sorry I got pregnant.” “The teacher was giving better grades to all the kids who bought drugs from him. I needed a good grade to get into college. I didn’t mean to bring the police down on your head, Daddy - I just didn’t see how I had any choice in the matter.”

How do you teach your children to stand firm in their morals, in situations where following one’s morals makes one’s life more difficult, if you don’t follow that same principle yourself?

 

[trayletha]

The teachings of the Church have never been erroneous.

but the TEACHERS of the Church certainly have been.

 

[TheRiver]

You are correct only in that it would likely not be a mortal sin if one denounced God under this extreme duress. However, it would be a sin. It is better to die a martyr, to have that heroic virtue.

St. Peter did sin mortally by denying Christ. If he had died, the other Apostles would have founded the Church. Jesus would have picked another “rock”. After all Jesus knew exactly what Peter would do before He picked him. He knew he would sin, and He knew he would repent.

God Bless

I disagree that it would be a sin, what would be a sin is getting your wife and children killed.

 

[TheRiver]

but the TEACHERS of the Church certainly have been.

1. Pope ex cathedra Extraordinary (and universal) Infallible Full Assent of Faith
2. Bishops, in union with Pope, defining doctrine at General Council Extraordinary (and universal teaching of the Church) Infallible Full Assent of Faith
3. Bishops proposing definitively, dispersed, but in unison, in union with Pope Ordinary and universal teaching of the Church Infallible Full Assent of Faith
   **4. Pope Ordinary Fallible Religious submission of intellect and will
4. Bishops Ordinary Fallible Religious submission of intellect and will**

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magisterium

Yes, the teachings of the church are sometimes erroneous.

 

[Northern_Lights]

Ah, you are thinking of the living flesh only.

We have to be careful, renouncing God is renouncing God, period. I say again to you, faifth, faith in God is what matters. If God allows the gunman to shoot us even though we do not renounce him, it was God’s larger plan, and time for us to go home to heaven. We don’t know whose soul will be converted with our death (in a case like you supposed), perhaps it would be the wife’s or the child’s, only God knows. But it is all crystal clear, we are NEVER to renounce God.
One day our lives will end here on earth… remember this, this life that we live, is ONLY a stepping stone for eternity. No matter what we like or love about this life, it pales in comparrison to eternity. Period.

 

[TheRiver]

Sorry, but if you say “I renounce God” then whether you mean it or not, you are on public record as having renounced God. This becomes your testimony and your witness to the world. Anything you say after that - “I didn’t really mean it” - is not going to be heard.

Then in that case me saying “Praise to be God, I’m not a cafeteria Catholic and I believe in everything said here” would also be on my public record even though I didn’t mean it. OK? Anything else I say after that shall not be heard, therefore if I claim I was only joking and I’m indeed a cafeteria Catholic you must deny it and say no I’m really a “full Catholic” and that I agree with everything

Logic fail.

Most of all, your children will believe that it is okay to follow the crowd when the pressure is on. “He would have put me out of the car and made me walk home if I didn’t have sex with him, Daddy, so it must have been okay, under the circumstances. I’m sorry I got pregnant.” “The teacher was giving better grades to all the kids who bought drugs from him. I needed a good grade to get into college. I didn’t mean to bring the police down on your head, Daddy - I just didn’t see how I had any choice in the matter.”

Stick to the topic, or are you going to commit a fallacy? Red herring?

Logic fail.

How do you teach your children to stand firm in their morals, when following your morals is making your life more difficult, if you don’t follow that same principle yourself?

I could ask you the same thing

 

[bilop]

I disagree that it would be a sin, what would be a sin is getting your wife and children killed.

You’re not “getting your wife or child killed”. In the sutuation you have posited, you have no control of the attackers actions. He may or may not kill them, regardless of what you do.

All you can do is the right thing. Affirm your belief in and love for God and Jesus.

I would also suggest you attack the S.O.B while you’re in the middle of praisng God. Your family should join in the attack. I ain’t trusting the word of anyone who puts a gun to my head.

God Bless

 

[TheRiver]

Ah, you are thinking of the living flesh only.

We have to be careful, renouncing God is renouncing God, period. I say again to you, faifth, faith in God is what matters. If God allows the gunman to shoot us even though we do not renounce him, it was God’s larger plan, and time for us to go home to heaven. We don’t know whose soul will be converted with our death (in a case like you supposed), perhaps it would be the wife’s or the child’s, only God knows. But it is all crystal clear, we are NEVER to renounce God.
One day our lives will end here on earth… remember this, this life that we live, is ONLY a stepping stone for eternity. No matter what we like or love about this life, it pales in comparrison to eternity. Period.

Then praising God is praising God period…even if you didn’t mean it. Right? What if you renounced God and then immediately praised him? Why would the renouncing count and the praising not count? Does praise only count selectively? What if you praise, renounce and then praise again?

 

[TheRiver]

You’re not “getting your wife or child killed”. In the sutuation you have posited, you have no control of the attackers actions. He may or may not kill them, regardless of what you do.

All you can do is the right thing. Affirm your belief in and love for God and Jesus.

I would also suggest you attack the S.O.B while you’re in the middle of praisng God. Your family should join in the attack. I ain’t trusting the word of anyone who puts a gun to my head.

God Bless

What if he said your wife and children die based on what you say? The right thing is not getting others killed.

 

[KingTheoden]

Something missing from some of the answers is this consideration:

Anyone who would threaten to kill you for believing in God would clearly be a disturbed and seriously misguided person. Therefore, to presume that this hypothetical person would keep his end of the bargain seems unreasonable.

In other rites, the Our Father translates to ‘bring us not to the test’ instead ‘deliver us from evil.’ Sadly around the world many are brought to the test and they are these are the most luminous among us. I always keep in mind when praying the Our Father that we are praying for, among other things, not being brought to the test.

It’s hard to know how we would react in such a circumstance, however I just don’t like absolute hypotheticals (e.g. ‘If you do X, then Y WILL happen’) because it does not leave room for other possibilities.

Of course, in a sense whenever we commit a sin, we deny Christ.

 

[TheRiver]

Something missing from some of the answers is this consideration:

Anyone who would threaten to kill you for believing in God would clearly be a disturbed and seriously misguided person. Therefore, to presume that this hypothetical person would keep his end of the bargain seems unreasonable.

In other rites, the Our Father translates to ‘bring us not to the test’ instead ‘deliver us from evil.’ Sadly around the world many are brought to the test and they are these are the most luminous among us. I always keep in mind when praying the Our Father that we are praying for, among other things, not being brought to the test.

It’s hard to know how we would react in such a circumstance, however I just don’t like absolute hypotheticals (e.g. ‘If you do X, then Y WILL happen’) because it does not leave room for other possibilities.

Of course, in a sense whenever we commit a sin, we deny Christ.

That’s true, but currently we have to consider the scenario, not assume it’s extreme and just forget it, that’s the point of this thread, to make us think about these circumstances, so let us examine it.

Cheers

 

[whatevergirl]

Sounds awfully similar to hmm…islamic extremism! It’s not better for them to die, that’s not your decision, it’s not your decision to take someone else’s life away.

The difference between this and islamic extremism, is that suicide bombers (we’ll use them as an example) purposely hurt others (‘infidels’), and die (as martyrs their faith tells them) in the process. A Christian martyr is not intending to harm others…but, will put his/her own life on the line, in defense of the faith. That’s the difference. Not one saint who died as a martyr, hurt others with violence, in the process.

 

[trayletha]

“He who denies me before men, I will deny him before my Father”. That’s not church teaching, that’s straight from the lips of Jesus Christ as recorded in scripture. And it’s too inconvenient a truth to have been manufactured after the event, so we need not doubt that He actually said it. Doesn’t leave a lot of wiggle room.

and so would Jesus have denied Peter to His Father? no he repented and was forgiven, because Jesus is love and forgiveness.

If you child says “I hate you” is a fit of anger do you put him out of your life? Or do you know that he is too young and immature to understand the implications of what his has said and truly doesn’t mean it. And if out hypothetical gunman had a gun to your child’s head and would kill him if he did not say that he hated you, would you hold him to that statement afterward? God is greater than I, greater in love and wisdom and forgiveness.

 

[TheRiver]

The difference between this and islamic extremism, is that suicide bombers (we’ll use them as an example) purposely hurt others (‘infidels’), and die (as martyrs their faith tells them) in the process. A Christian martyr is not intending to harm others…but, will put his/her own life on the line, in defense of the faith. That’s the difference. Not one saint who died as a martyr, hurt others with violence, in the process.

I said similar, not exactly the same, so there ends your subsequent rant. It would help to read carefully.

Somethings are similar if they share certain characteristics, it doesn’t have to be all.