Is it a mortal sin to lie and deny God at gunpoint to save ones life?

[CWBetts]

Peter!

If Peter had not denied Jesus and instead died with him, what would the catholic church have been built on?

When catholics were being prosecuted as a group for their faith martyrdom was a form of protest, but in the original question it is nothing more than a very odd and random individual assault.

But what about individual martyrs such as St. Thomas More, St. Maria Goretti, and St. Maximilian Kolbe? I would have to research the incident of which you speak, and see if Peter was in any real danger. If memory serves, there wasn’t really anyone of any power or influence there, but as I said, i will have to look into it.

 

[TheRiver]

Well the both the man and woman made their own choices on the matter, the woman seems to have chosen for the children.

God Bless.

Chris.

Is that correct then? That the children should not live because of such a decision? Or is someone to reason this as “it’s for the glory of God” and “they will be in heaven”, “matyrdom rocks”.

 

[jmcrae]

Sounds awfully similar to hmm…islamic extremism!

It is not related in any way to Islamic extremism. The Islamic extremists aren’t being killed by their enemies - they are actually killing themselves - it is they themselves who are carrying the weapons and setting them off - and purposely taking people whom they consider to be unbelievers with them into death.

The Maccabean mother didn’t strap a bomb to herself and take the whole room full of people with her. Neither did the Early Christians.

It’s not better for them to die, that’s not your decision, it’s not your decision to take someone else’s life away.

If they are going to die anyway, then it is best to encourage them to die well. Keep in mind, the bad guys are not going to let you live just because you deny God. They are still going to kill you and your family anyway. If you have denied God when they kill you, then they win. If you stay firm in your faith, then you win. If your wife and children stay firm in their faith, then they win. But if you tell them to deny God, and then they are killed anyway, then the bad guys win, and Satan wins.

 

[CGDouglas]

Is that correct then? That the children should not live because of such a decision? Or is someone to reason this as “it’s for the glory of God” and “they will be in heaven”, “matyrdom rocks”.

You can’t tell another to be killed for their faith, it’s up to the individual if they choose to die for what they believe.

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[TheRiver]

But what about individual martyrs such as St. Thomas More, St. Maria Goretti, and St. Maximilian Kolbe? I would have to research the incident of which you speak, and see if Peter was in any real danger. If memory serves, there wasn’t really anyone of any power or influence there, but as I said, i will have to look into it.

It’s not up to you to make such an analysis of what his danger level was or who of power was there.

We don’t know what the circumstances exactly were, however it can be reasonably concluded from Peter’s constant denial that he feared for his safety, enough evidence perhaps to suggest that he could have very well died.

 

[TheRiver]

You can’t tell another to be killed for their faith, it’s up to the individual if they choose to die for what they believe.

God Bless.

Chris.

Precisely, but in the case of the wife and kids being possibly killed, you dying also means they will also die if the gunman shoots the whole family. So you save yourself and your wife and kids, or you die and your wife and kids also get killed.

 

[CWBetts]

I choose what I want to believe based on reason and simply not the “teaching of the Church” - the teaching of the Church have at many times led to confusion and mockery when they finally admit they were wrong on many issues, despite also being right on many issues. So pardon me if I don’t accept your reasoning there.

I agree with your statement for the most part, but I feel you are missing the issue at hand, it’s not only your life in question here, but others’. You don’t have the right to make a decision for your kid’s life or your wife. It’s not yours to make. I don’t disagree with matyrdom of yourself, what I disagree with is deciding that your family must also die because of your decision to not deny God.

Then follow the lead of the Saints. Do you know any?

 

[Northern_Lights]

Precisely, but in the case of the wife and kids being possibly killed, you dying also means they will also die if the gunman shoots the whole family. So you save yourself and your wife and kids, or you die and your wife and kids also get killed.

 

[TheRiver]

Then follow the lead of the Saints. Do you know any?

The actions and words of the saints have ultimately made up a lot of the teachings of the Church, so I fail to see why you would blindly say “follow the lead of the saints”. Perhaps in some cases, but not all cases.

Do I know any? Let’s not get ridiculous now. Temper, temper.

 

[CGDouglas]

Precisely, but in the case of the wife and kids being possibly killed, you dying also means they will also die if the gunman shoots the whole family. So you save yourself and your wife and kids, or you die and your wife and kids also get killed.

And if you renounce and the gunman decides to shoot anyway?

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[Northern_Lights]

Ah, but that is truly a ‘worldly thought’ — that the wife and children will also perish. They may or may not. Ultimately, none may perish, not even the one who is unsure about denying Christ. If he does not deny Christ, all may live here and forever. Faith, we are called to have deep and abiding faith.

 

[jmcrae]

Peter!

If Peter had not denied Jesus and instead died with him, what would the catholic church have been built on?

Who can say? Perhaps it would not have had to endure 300 years of martyrdom and exile.

 

[TheRiver]

And if you renounce and the gunman decides to shoot anyway?

God Bless.

Chris.

Yea so? What matters was your intent, you weren’t interested in your own skin, but that of your family.

 

[CWBetts]

The actions and words of the saints have ultimately made up a lot of the teachings of the Church, so I fail to see why you would blindly say “follow the lead of the saints”. Perhaps in some cases, but not all cases.

Do I know any? Let’s not get ridiculous now. Temper, temper.

Your cafeteria Catholicism is fairly extreme, I would say. It would seem that all you go for is the dessert. Every saint is a person of heroic virtue. That is why they are saints. Why would you NOT want to emulate that degree of holiness?

 

[Northern_Lights]

I think there are now a few too many 'what if’s '… maybe a bit of prayer would be in order? Maybe even a prayer to St. Padre Peo (spelling?), whose feast day was yesterday, September 23.

 

[Newbie2]

But if one were to seek out martyrdom, it might be seen as testing God. Perhaps the sin of presumption.

I agree.

You are certainly correct that if put in that position, accepting martydom is the correct choice; one we should all pray that we would be able to make.

I agree. Great minds think alike.
God Bless

 

[TheRiver]

Your cafeteria Catholicism is fairly extreme, I would say. It would seem that all you go for is the dessert. Every saint is a person of heroic virtue. That is why they are saints. Why would you NOT want to emulate that degree of holiness?

Yea why wouldn’t I? I fail to see your point, I never disagreed, I simply stated your appeal to authority was fallacious, it’s philosophically incorrect to appeal to “the teachings of the church” because it has been erroneous many a-time.

I also stated that the Saints’ contribution make a fair bit of the teachings of the church, therefore it should be based on reason to accept what to follow and what not to follow. God gave reason, to use, not to keep aside and blindly follow what is being said.

All saints have been wonderful human beings no doubt, that being said I however don’t agree with all their actions. What would make this topic more interesting would an issue where a saint chooses martyrdom for themselves and others without their permission, can anyone find one?

 

[CGDouglas]

Yea so? What matters was your intent, you weren’t interested in your own skin, but that of your family.

How was the person interested in their own skin in dying for God? If the person was interested in their own skin, shouldn’t they have just renounced God instantly?

Also, why can’t the person be a self sacrifice to let the others live?

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[TheRiver]

I think there are now a few too many 'what if’s '… maybe a bit of prayer would be in order? Maybe even a prayer to St. Padre Peo (spelling?), whose feast day was yesterday, September 23.

It’s Pio, also known as Francesco Forgione.

 

[trayletha]

Ok and if the gunman is holding the gun to your child’s head? Are you going the make a CHOICE that will cause your child to be murdered?

Don’t forget ‘The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church’. - Tertullian.

Tertullian also believed that women were the “gateway of the devil”. Jesus is the seed of the Church!

*But what about individual martyrs such as St. Thomas More, St. Maria Goretti, and St. Maximilian Kolbe? I would have to research the incident of which you speak, and see if Peter was in any real danger. If memory serves, there wasn’t really anyone of any power or influence there, but as I said, i will have to look into it. *
I’m going to look at more individual martyrs, but if Peter was in no real danger, wouldn’t his denial be a mortal sin? versus this hypothetical we are discussing where duress is being used?