Is it a mortal sin to lie and deny God at gunpoint to save ones life?

[CGDouglas]

So you make the decision for others’ lives because of what you believe to be true about God, so that’s the right decision?

Yea there’s your beautiful wife and kids and you don’t give them a chance to live because you want to proclaim God’s greatness Very commendable, “because Maccabees says so”. I wouldn’t exactly blame people who chose not to be eaten by lions, lions aren’t exactly animals one wants to come face to face with. Why are you talking about the early church anyways? They themselves committed many atrocities to people, not that I want to forget the injustice done to Christians.

Don’t cafeteria catholics advocate abortion?

Secondly, it’s focused upon the individual, since the gun is aimed at him for his faith, not the wife and children, when it comes to the wife and children, then it’s a different matter which can involve the sacrifice of the self for others.

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[TheRiver]

Don’t cafeteria catholics advocate abortion?

Secondly, it’s focused upon the individual, not the wife and kids, when it comes to the wife and children, then it’s a different matter.

God Bless.

Chris.

No, cafeteria catholics pick and choose what they want to believe. I don’t believe in abortion, I’m firmly against it. What does it have to do with the topic?

You by any chance weren’t poisoning the well were you? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Making irrelevant statements at the start of your argument to somehow make the opposition look bad?

Read what jmcrae said,

The woman with the seven sons preferred to see them and herself killed rather than deny what she knew to be true about God.

• that’s what I responded to, so it seems he advocates that the wife and children be killed too for the glory of God, because Maccabees says so, if this is not what he intended to say, I apologize and ask for clarification.

 

[jmcrae]

So you make the decision for others’ lives because of what you believe to be true about God, so that’s the right decision?

Yea there’s your beautiful wife and kids and you don’t give them a chance to live because you want to proclaim God’s greatness Very commendable, “because Maccabees says so”. I wouldn’t exactly blame people who chose not to be eaten by lions, lions aren’t exactly animals one wants to come face to face with. Why are you talking about the early church anyways? They themselves committed many atrocities to people, not that I want to forget the injustice done to Christians.

During the time period I’m referring to, it was impossible for the Early Church to have committed any “atrocities” since they had absolutely no political power (hence, the lions) - even if I were to think that “the Church” is responsible for every imagined slight that has occurred in the world over the past two thousand years.

 

[TheRiver]

During the time period I’m referring to, it was impossible for the Early Church to have committed any “atrocities” since they had absolutely no political power (hence, the lions) - even if I were to think that “the Church” is responsible for every imagined slight that has occurred in the world over the past two thousand years.

I stand corrected, you are right, it’s not the early church, it’s the church after a period of time. However that’s a non-issue as it’s not relevant and it’s my fault for bringing that up. Please respond to the issue I pointed out, related to this topic.

Cheers

 

[jmcrae]

No cafeteria catholics pick and choose what they want to believe. I don’t believe in abortion, I’m firmly against it. What does it have to do with the topic?

You by any chance weren’t poisoning the well were you? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Making irrelevant statements at the start of your argument to somehow make the opposition look bad?

Read what jmcrae said, - that’s what I responded to, so it seems he advocates that the wife and children be killed too for the glory of God, because Maccabees says so, if this is not what he intended to say, I apologize and ask for clarification.

She encouraged her children to die for their faith, with the promise that God would bring them to a better place (this is the first indication of a belief in an afterlife recorded in the Scriptures) rather than see them save their lives by denying their faith. Of what use is the continuation of life, if you are going to spend from now until you die separated from God, by denying Him at the most critical moment? We all die in the end, anyway. It is how we die that is important - not when. Living to an old age is not a guarantee of happiness.

Also, there is no guarantee that the bad guy won’t just kill you anyway, for thrills. Do you really want the last words to cross your lips to be “No, I don’t believe in God”?

 

[CGDouglas]

No cafeteria catholics pick and choose what they want to believe. I don’t believe in abortion, I’m firmly against it. What does it have to do with the topic?

You by any chance weren’t poisoning the well were you? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Making irrelevant statements at the start of your argument to somehow make the opposition look bad?

What it had to do with the topic was the idea of denying life, since abortion is a popularity amongst the cafeteria types.

As for the poisoning statement, oh no, just making sure the well isn’t poisoned.

TheRiver:

Read what jmcrae said, - that’s what I responded to, so it seems he advocates that the wife and children be killed too for the glory of God, because Maccabees says so, if this is not what he intended to say, I apologize and ask for clarification.

The very aspect of martyrdom is dying for your faith.

Maccabees shows us that it wasn’t for glory, but they’d rather die than deny their faith in God.

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[TheRiver]

What it had to do with the topic was the idea of denying life, since abortion is a popularity amongst the cafeteria types.

As for the poisoning statement, oh no, just making sure the well isn’t poisoned.

Abortion has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, admit it and move on, you made a boo boo.

The very aspect of martyrdom is dying for your faith.

Maccabees shows us that it wasn’t for glory, but they’d rather die than deny their faith in God.

God Bless.

Which is for the glory of God, like I said, so Maccabees says it’s OK then to let your wife and children die as well?

 

[BobCatholic]

To wish martyrdom on one’s self seems a bit disordered to me.

It is not disordered to want to please God. Disordered desires always lead away from pleasing God.

 

[bilop]

It is not disordered to want to please God.

But if one were to seek out martyrdom, it might be seen as testing God. Perhaps the sin of presumption.

You are certainly correct that if put in that position, accepting martydom is the correct choice; one we should all pray that we would be able to make.

God Bless

 

[jmcrae]

Abortion has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, admit it and move on, you made a boo boo.

Which is for the glory of God, like I said, so Maccabees says it’s OK then to let your wife and children die as well?

The Maccabean mother took away the power of the enemy by, instead of weeping and wailing and recanting her faith in God to make offerings to false gods because they were killing her children, instead, encouraging her children to die for their faith, and letting the enemy see that she was glad to see them die for their faith rather than live their lives in denial of their God. Last of all, she herself was killed, and she still took away their power over her by going gladly to her death rather than give in to their demands to deny her God.

 

[bilop]

Which is for the glory of God, like I said, so Maccabees says it’s OK then to let your wife and children die as well?

You could also try to defend them. But, better for them to die as martyrs and go to Heaven than to possibly lose faith in God (if you deny Him), and end up in Hell.

God Bless

 

[TheRiver]

The Maccabean mother took away the power of the enemy by, instead of weeping and wailing and recanting her faith in God to make offerings to false gods because they were killing her children, instead, encouraging her children to die for their faith, and letting the enemy see that she was glad to see them die for their faith rather than live their lives in denial of their God. Last of all, she herself was killed, and she still took away their power over her by going gladly to her death rather than give in to their demands to deny her God.

Even better, try to convince the other party that they should die for the glory of God, perhaps somewhat acceptable if it were older people, what are you going to tell your kids? It’s ok, close your eyes and accept this death

This is contrary to the point of life and living. It also contradicts the role of the father in a family, ultimately to protect and serve his wife and children, but Maccabees knows best. Contradict the natural role.

This is similar to brain-washing in the extremist islamic groups, die for God’s glory. Die, die, die, all for God, let’s forget the purpose of living.

 

[Northern_Lights]

I will probably get this wrong, but the reading a couple of weeks back was something to this affect:

He who saves his life, shall lose it.
He who loses his life for me, shall have everlasting life.

I think that says it all… a tough spot to be in, but remember, God gives special graces to his true believers. Let us NEVER forget that.

 

[TheRiver]

I will probably get this wrong, but the reading a couple of weeks back was something to this affect:

He who saves his life, shall lose it.
He who loses his life for me, shall have everlasting life.

I think that says it all… a tough spot to be in, but remember, God gives special graces to his true believers. Let us NEVER forget that.

Yes, he who loses his life for me. It doesn’t say he who loses his life for me as well as his family’s shall have everlasting life.

It’s up to the person to decide, not decide for others. Since the family’s life is not up to your decision, it can be reasonably concluded this applies to only one person.

 

[CWBetts]

Even better, try to convince the other party that they should die for the glory of God, perhaps somewhat acceptable if it were older people, what are you going to tell your kids? It’s ok, close your eyes and accept this death

This is contrary to the point of life and living. It also contradicts the role of the father in a family, ultimately to protect and serve his wife and children, but Maccabees knows best. Contradict the natural role.

Our role in this life, that supersedes all others is to live for the Glory of God. Paradoxically, that includes dying for Him. Your posts show that you truly are a “cafateria Catholic,” by ignoring any teaching of the Church that is somehow inconvenient. We are all called to live a life of holiness and heroic virtue. We should all strive to be canonizable saints by the end of our lifetimes. Why? So we can be remembered buy the Church and have people pray for our intercession? Of course not. There is no greater thing you can do for God that die to self to serve Him. As one man said, “He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.”

 

[TheRiver]

You could also try to defend them. But, better for them to die as martyrs and go to Heaven than to possibly lose faith in God (if you deny Him), and end up in Hell.

God Bless

Sounds awfully similar to hmm…islamic extremism! It’s not better for them to die, that’s not your decision, it’s not your decision to take someone else’s life away.

 

[CGDouglas]

Abortion has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, admit it and move on, you made a boo boo.

Starting with a presumption and the bolding of previous quotations, you may see how, I’ll admit error.

TheRiver:

Which is for the glory of God, like I said, so Maccabees says it’s OK then to let your wife and children die as well?

Well the both the man and woman made their own choices on the matter, the woman seems to have chosen for the children.

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[trayletha]

Peter!

If Peter had not denied Jesus and instead died with him, what would the catholic church have been built on?

When catholics were being prosecuted as a group for their faith martyrdom was a form of protest, but in the original question it is nothing more than a very odd and random individual assault.

 

[TheRiver]

Our role in this life, that supersedes all others is to live for the Glory of God. Paradoxically, that includes dying for Him. Your posts show that you truly are a “cafateria Catholic,” by ignoring any teaching of the Church that is somehow inconvenient. We are all called to live a life of holiness and heroic virtue. We should all strive to be canonizable saints by the end of our lifetimes. Why? So we can be remembered buy the Church and have people pray for our intercession? Of course not. There is no greater thing you can do for God that die to self to serve Him. As one man said, “He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.”

I choose what I want to believe based on reason and simply not the “teaching of the Church” - the teaching of the Church have at many times led to confusion and mockery when they finally admit they were wrong on many issues, despite also being right on many issues. So pardon me if I don’t accept your reasoning there.

I agree with your statement for the most part, but I feel you are missing the issue at hand, it’s not only your life in question here, but others’. You don’t have the right to make a decision for your kid’s life or your wife. It’s not yours to make. I don’t disagree with matyrdom of yourself, what I disagree with is deciding that your family must also die because of your decision to not deny God.

 

[CGDouglas]

Peter!

If Peter had not denied Jesus and instead died with him, what would the catholic church have been built on?

When catholics were being prosecuted as a group for their faith martyrdom was a form of protest, but in the original question it is nothing more than a very odd and random individual assault.

Don’t forget ‘The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church’. - Tertullian.

God Bless.

Chris.