Is it a sin not to work?

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YOU WROTE: “Feeling the presence of God, for Christians, means we then transmit that presence to our fellow man via the corporal and spiritual works of mercy or in other concrete ways.

No it doesn’t. Not in every circumstance. You are wrong.

Philosophy is an example of something practiced purely for its own sake. Knowledge for the sake of knowledge. I have a hard time seeing how philosophy could EVER be transmitted “to our fellow man via the corporal and spiritual works of mercy or in other concrete ways.” This is one of the primary arguments that utilitarians often use to classify philosophy as “useless” and a “waste of time.” It doesn’t build houses for the poor. It doesn’t help the economy. It doesn’t build road, etc. It serves no utilitarian purpose to speak of. But it is still a valuable field for its own intrinsic worth, and I find that being a philosopher is an important end in and of itself, and for no other reason.

As a philosopher, I find your implication very offensive that leisure activities like philosophy are somehow “worthless,” because they do not “transmit that presence (of God) to our fellow man via the corporal and spiritual works of mercy or in other concrete ways.” Are you seriously trying to tell me that my chosen field is worthless just because it doesn’t do anything “concrete?” Ridiculous.

There is more to life than utilitarian concrete living. Non-philosophers generally do not register this. Every single one of your objections has been exhaustively covered in “Leisure, The Basis Of Culture” in minute detail. It is quite clear to me that you have not read the book at all, and still do not understand what I am talking about.

Once again, here is a link to the FULL TEXT of the book. I suggest you read it before addressing this issue again.

scribd.com/doc/28873477/L…sis-of-Culture
Did I say philosophy didn’t constitute work? I’'ve studied some, though not deeply, myself, so I know it is indeed work. And it’s noble work. And enjoyable, certainly.

Christ was a brilliant philosopher, as were Sts Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, and too many others to mention. None of these, however, practiced philosophy in a vacuum or in isolation, or indeed, merely by sitting on beaches or anywhere else by themselves thinking deep thoughts.

The greats, and even the dabblers such as myself, write about their ideas, they speak about them, they communicate - to use my terminology they TRANSMIT what they know and think to others. And remember ‘instructing the ignorant’, which is surely the aim of philosophy, is actually one of the seven spiritual works of mercy, which are just as important as the corporal ones we are all familiar with from the Gospels.

You say they don’t transmit the presence of God in their discourse (and true philosophy is always a discourse - a discussion among thinkers, not just a monologue)? Put it this way - both Christian and non-Christian philosopher alike do what they do not just out of enjoyment. Indeed some don’t enjoy it much at all!

Philosophy is self-defined as a search for truth. God being Truth, as Christ says, they are really on a search for Him. Some explicitly, others implicitly but nonetheless truly. And transmitting truth to others is in a very real sense transmitting God to others.
 
YOU WROTE: “The greats, and even the dabblers such as myself, write about their ideas, they speak about them, they communicate - to use my terminology they TRANSMIT what they know and think to others.”
  • They don’t need to. The Church does not FORCE anyone to become a philosopher. Nobody OBLIGATES someone to become philosophically intelligent. And there is absolutely nothing in all official Catholic teaching requiring a philosopher (or anyone else) to write down what they are thinking, or to pass it on to others, on pain of mortal sin. Ridiculous. There are plenty of things people think and never write down. I have never, in the whole of my life, seen such behavior classified as “sinful.”
The ONLY reason anyone bothers with philosophy in the first place is for the sake of knowledge in and of itself, and for no other purpose. Because it’s FUN. Must everything have a utilitarian purpose? This is not supportable.

If God wants you to “instruct the ignorant” by means of philosophy, He will send someone your way. If God wishes you to use philosophy in His service, He will make it absolutely unmistakable. Such activity is not “work,” even though it may require effort. It will arise from who you are as a person. This is very different. The Church does not obligate us to use philosophy, or even KNOW philosophy, in any way whatsoever.

YOU WROTE: “Did I say philosophy didn’t constitute work? I’ve studied some, though not deeply, myself, so I know it is indeed work. And it’s noble work. And enjoyable, certainly.”
  • Philosophy may indeed involve some “work” (ie., effort.) Philosophical research may require some exertion in the area of study. But practicing philosophy can also be quite effortless. I have noticed (as author Joseph Pieper has) that many people seem to distrust work that is effortless. As if it is not “legitimate” somehow. As if it is not valuable, because it doesn’t conform to our usual concept of “work.”
(From Leisure, The Basis Of Culture:)

“What happens when our eye sees a rose? What do we do when that happens? Our mind does something, to be sure, in the mere fact of taking in the object, grasping its color, its shape, and so on. We have to be awake and active. But all the same, it is a ”relaxed” looking, so long as we are merely looking at it and not observing or studying it, counting or measuring its various features. Such observation would not be a ”relaxed” action: it would be what Ernst Junger termed an ”act of aggression.”1 But simply looking at something, gazing at it, ”taking it in,” is merely to open our eyes to receive the things that present themselves to us, that come to us without any need for ”effort” on our part to ”possess” them.”
  • Thus philosophy does not somehow obligate us to acquire or possess knowledge through “work.” Such a thing is not an intrinsic requirement for knowledge. Acquisition of philosophical knowledge can often arise from no effort at all. Many people who think that the only things worth having arise through work are flatly wrong. “Work” does not define all philosophy.
Also, you seem to be arguing that even philosophy, too, must be subordinated to some “use.” This I find particularly offensive to the very nature of philosophy. Pieper elaborates:

“But the ancients said that there rightly exist non-useful forms of human activity, that there are such things as liberal arts. There are not only functionary sciences, there is also the knowledge of a ”gentleman,” as John Henry Newman so happily translated the old term artes liberals in his Idea of a University?34

(continued) “It should go without saying that not everything that cannot exactly be categorized as ”useful” is useless. And thus it is not at all without significance for a people and the realization of a nation’s common good that room be allowed, and respect be granted, for what is not ”useful work” in the sense of immediate application. As Goethe the Minister of State wrote to Friedrich Soret [Oct. 20, 1830]: ”I have never asked… how do I use the whole? - rather, I have only attempted to speak out what I understood as good and true. Of course, this was made use of… in a wider circle, but that was not its purpose, only a necessary result.”35

(continued) “According to Hegel’s fine formulation, there is not only use, there is also blessing.”36

(continued.)“In just such a sense can the medieval statement be understood, that it is ”necessary for the perfection of the human community, that there be persons who devote themselves to the [useless] life of contemplation.”37 To which I would only like to add that this is necessary not only for the perfection of the individuals themselves, who devote themselves to the vita contemplativa, but also for the perfection of the whole human community! Would anyone who thinks only in terms of the ”intellectual worker” be willing to say that?”
  • Certainly this does not rule out sharing our philosophical knowledge with others. But there is no direct mandate to so. Plenty of philosophers never publish a single thing out of embarrassment; they feel their work is not good enough, despite its possible brilliance. And yet the human community is enriched anyway, simply by such people BEING philosophers. Knowledge, in and of itself, is good to have. An INTRINSIC good.
By your own definition, every time someone (even a philosopher) does not communicate a brilliant idea to others, they risk Hell-fire. They risk eternal punishment for not communicating every single great thought. This is absolutely false. Nowhere in all official Catholic Doctrine is such a position expressed. People have great thoughts all the time that are never communicated. They occur sometimes in the normal course of the day. The Catholic Church does not officially condemn such people for merely having great insights, and not communicating them. If that was the case, we’d all have to turn ourselves in.
 
The ONLY reason anyone bothers with philosophy in the first place is for the sake of knowledge in and of itself, and for no other purpose. Because it’s FUN. Must everything have a utilitarian purpose?
I had dinner with 2 professors of Philosophy last night, not dilettante wannabes. They’re serious scholars. One is from a university in the midwest; the other from Italy.

They disagree with your continuing view that philosophy exists for itself, serves no other purpose, non-utilitarian, just 'for fun"

Philosophy teaches students how to think, how to differentiate, how to recognize fallacies, how to construct arguments.

It helps tease out moral and ethical issues.

And it also helps students “see Truth”, giving them an ability to see transcendent truth.

When students “see the beauty” in truth…they sense something substantial and transcendant. This perception is a glimmer of God. God is truth.

They are also able to see how their ‘work’, their efforts to know and to be able to articulate the truth, and to help others do this, can actually be serving God.

In fact, they are quite specific about this. Everything they do in their field can be done to give God glory.
 
I must point out that I am not objecting to the ideas above. What I AM objecting to is the notion that seems to be in the air here that every time someone (even a philosopher) does not communicate a brilliant idea to others, they risk Hell-fire. They risk eternal punishment for not communicating every single great thought, and performing “spiritual works of mercy.” This is absolutely false. Nowhere in all official Catholic Doctrine is such a position expressed. People have great thoughts all the time that are never communicated. They occur sometimes in the normal course of the day. The Catholic Church does not officially condemn such people for merely having great insights, and not communicating them. If that was the case, we’d all have to turn ourselves in.
 
Helping a student understand the difference between free will and freedom, if it’s done for God, done in charity, in a generous spirit of service (even if for pay), is a work of God.

Pope John Paul II wrote (emphasis below, mine):

"There cannot be two parallel lives in their existence: on the one hand, the so-called “spiritual” life, with its values and demands; and on the other, the so-called “secular” life, that is, life in a family, at work, in social relationships, in the responsibilities of public life and in culture. The branch, engrafted to the vine which is Christ, bears its fruit in every sphere of existence and activity. In fact, every area of the lay faithful’s lives, as different as they are, enters into the plan of God, who desires that these very areas be the “places in time” where the love of Christ is revealed and realized for both the glory of the Father and service of others. Every activity, every situation, every precise responsibility-as, for example, skill and solidarity in work, love and dedication in the family and the education of children, service to society and public life and the promotion of truth in the area of culture-are the occasions ordained by Providence for a ‘continuous exercise of faith, hope and charity’(211)."

For speed readers…here’s the whole profound document:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_30121988_christifideles-laici_en.html

211: Gaudium et Spes
 
And so this sub-thread ends the way all threads end with you, with your endless one-upping pseudo-scholasticism.

Dissidia Duodecim: Indeed.
Translated: I’m going to cop-out with an insult because the facts went way over my head. Nyanyanyanya! :whacky:
 
If I recall correctly, Edward, people often have more than one talent. Nowhere is it written we have to use any particular talent in the service of others. You are wrong. We are free to reveal or hide any talent we choose. There is absolutely nothing written anywhere in all official Catholic teaching condemning us to Hell for this. Your quoting of CHRISTIFIDELES LAICI above does not support this.

What a ridiculous position.
 
I can see a lot of ‘‘WORK’’ has gone into this question and the doubts and need for truthful answers. Leisure to some is baking cookies on a Sunday to feed their children a treat. Other forms of leisure can be used as times to ‘‘work’’ also by reading and learning new things. Work is not the only thing God rewards in this life. He also commands us to ‘‘Love one another as we love ourselves.’’ This was the teaching of Christ, who brought the ‘‘heart’’ of the law to mankind. In order to do Gods will, work alone will not suffice. It must be done out of love for they neighbor and not as an attempt to get others attention and compliments. It is not in working endlessly that man attains Heaven, but that man performs the work as an act of LOVE toward someone other than himself that he is rewarded.

Those who cannot work, PTSD sufferers, and the mentally/emotionally ill are not included in this physical work ethic that God asks, but as a tool that others might help them in the hopes that if we as humans help one another, we will be rewarded in the afterlife with being in the presence of God Himself.

Bernadette173
 
If I recall correctly, Edward, people often have more than one talent. Nowhere is it written we have to use any particular talent in the service of others. You are wrong. We are free to reveal or hide any talent we choose. There is absolutely nothing written anywhere in all official Catholic teaching condemning us to Hell for this. Your quoting of CHRISTIFIDELES LAICI above does not support this.

What a ridiculous position.
Joseph, you’re all over the map. It’s much simpler and clearer than you’re making it out. and far less fretful.

It may not be in Pieper, but it says plainly in the Bible what we are to do. Luke 10:27: You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

So…we should give all to God…all our efforts, our setbacks, our work, joys, sufferings, and talents.

Don’t short-circuit yourself …you keep raising the topic of condemnation. God is telling us how he would like us to live. God makes the decision about salvation. Relax. You sound like a Protestant who over-focuses on “am I saved” “am i damned”

God doesn’t want us to spend energy worrying in that way…He wants us to love with the generosity that is so plainly mentioned in Luke 10:27.

Again, this isn’t Pieper…but it should count for something.
 
So, if I understand correctly, you are AGREEING with what I said above: that people often have more than one talent, and that nowhere is it written we have to use any particular talent in the service of others. I take it by your words that you agree with the fact that we are free to reveal or hide any talent we choose - that there is absolutely nothing written anywhere in all official Catholic teaching condemning us to Hell for this.

Good. We are making progress at last.
 
So, if I understand correctly, you are AGREEING with what I said above: that people often have more than one talent, and that nowhere is it written we have to use any particular talent in the service of others. I take it by your words that you agree with the fact that we are free to reveal or hide any talent we choose - that there is absolutely nothing written anywhere in all official Catholic teaching condemning us to Hell for this.

Good. We are making progress at last.
You misunderstand. No discernible progress in the spirit of generosity. If you’re holding back…it’s a reasonable question to ask why? Whose will? Your will or God’s will. Are those really your talents?

If the message of total self-donation and generosity of love from St Luke didn’t influence your thinking, then let’s take a quick look at the inspired word from St Matthew: 25: 14-30

The Parable of the Talents.*
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c “It will be as when a man who was going on a journey* called in his servants and entrusted his possessions to them.
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To one he gave five talents;* to another, two; to a third, one—to each according to his ability. Then he went away. Immediately
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the one who received five talents went and traded with them, and made another five.
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Likewise, the one who received two made another two.
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  • But the man who received one went off and dug a hole in the ground and buried his master’s money.
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    After a long time the master of those servants came back and settled accounts with them.
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    The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the additional five.* He said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. See, I have made five more.’
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    d His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’
    22
    [Then] the one who had received two talents also came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. See, I have made two more.’
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    His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’
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    Then the one who had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a demanding person, harvesting where you did not plant and gathering where you did not scatter;
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    so out of fear I went off and buried your talent in the ground. Here it is back.’
    26
    His master said to him in reply, ‘You wicked, lazy servant!* So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant and gather where I did not scatter?
    27
    Should you not then have put my money in the bank so that I could have got it back with interest on my return?
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    Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten.
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  • e For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
    30
  • And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’
 
Ah, so you don’t agree. Why not just come out and say it? You have admitted as much anyway. And you are still wrong.
 
Ah, so you don’t agree. Why not just come out and say it? You have admitted as much anyway. And you are still wrong.
You continue to avoid,side-step, ignore, wiggle around the simple, joyful truth of the Gospel. Such retorts are natural, and human…they just aren’t consistent with the messge of love in the Gospel, which is total self-donation in the model of Jesus Christ.

Kenosis is not hiding and hoarding of talents.
 
YOU WROTE: “You sound like a Protestant who over-focuses on “am I saved” “am i damned” …You continue to avoid, side-step, ignore, wiggle around the simple, joyful truth of the Gospel.”
  • The simple, joyful truth that we are all going to Hell if we don’t place every single talent we have at the disposal of others, I take it. I am not being Protestant at all when I say this. That IS the message you are giving me here, is it not? You even quoted the Parable of the Talents in support of this strange position. And then, bizarrely, you claim that such a position is not stressful, and that we should “relax.”
YOU WROTE: “God doesn’t want us to spend energy worrying in that way…He wants us to love with the generosity that is so plainly mentioned in Luke 10:27.”

I find it strange that anyone can “relax” with the threat of Hell hanging over them for not using EVERY SINGLE TALENT THEY HAVE for the “good of our neighbor,” ALL THE TIME, as you imply. This is not official Church teaching. It is your own subjective, personal opinion. And no one in obligated to follow such a bizarre personal opinion in any way whatsoever.

You continue to quote the Bible. But you do so only in a context that does not accurately represent the meaning of the texts you choose. You have not given one single shred of official Church teaching to support your position. Because there is none. You are still wrong.

YOU WROTE: “You misunderstand. No discernible progress in the spirit of generosity.”
  • On the contrary, I think it is VERY generous of me to share the truth of this matter with those reading here.
YOU WROTE: “Kenosis is not hiding and hoarding of talents.”
  • I never said anything about “hoarding” talents (whatever THAT means. What a bizarre concept.) And I referred to “hiding” talents only in the sense that we do not have to use any PARTICULAR talent in the service of others. You are wrong. We are free to reveal or hide any talent we choose. There is absolutely nothing written anywhere in all official Catholic teaching condemning us to Hell for keeping certain talents to ourselves.
If I sing or write well, for example, there is absolutely no obligation for me to use these talents beyond my personal sphere. People can have more than one talent, you know. If you think that just because we’re good at something, that we’re forced to put those talents to work for others just to avoid being punished, this is twisted thinking. But it does seem to be your entire message. Perhaps you do not mean for it to sound this way, but that is exactly how it comes across.

Implying that that we’re forced to put ALL of our talents to work for others just to avoid being punished is a completely subjective idea, unique to you, and to no one else. It will just make people worried for absolutely nothing. I think you know this perfectly well, but you evidently don’t care. You keep repeating the same bizarre message over and over, and it is flatly wrong.

If someone genuinely needs help, and our talent can supply that help, that is quite different. That is the motion of God. He will show you if you need to use any particular talent to help others, and it will be unmistakable. THAT is when we genuinely use our talents in the service of others. I have already said this.

YOU WROTE: “Such retorts are natural, and human…they just aren’t consistent with the messge of love in the Gospel, which is total self-donation in the model of Jesus Christ.”
  • On the contrary, I find your message to be ASTONISHINGLY without love. Your purpose appears to be to spread falsehoods about Church belief. Such falseness comes not from God, but from the devil. It will hurt many people. I suggest you reconsider before posting such hurtful falsehoods here again.
 
Bottom line: God shows us where and when we use our talents. No one should feel stressed about this. You don’t even have to think about it. If God decides to one day use your talent (whatever it is) to help others, you will know. It will be powerful. It is something that HAPPENS to you, not something that you have to stress about doing. It happens when it happens. Stating otherwise is simply misleading, and completely untrue.
 
Bottom line: God shows us where and when we use our talents. No one should feel stressed about this. You don’t even have to think about it. If God decides to one day use your talent (whatever it is) to help others, you will know. It will be powerful. It is something that HAPPENS to you, not something that you have to stress about doing. It happens when it happens. Stating otherwise is simply misleading, and completely untrue.
Sure, God shows us where to use our talents. But being imperfect and concupiscent human beings we don’t always take the hint too well.

He showed Moses, Moses at first balked at doing what God asked as he thought himself not capable enough.

He showed Jonah, Jonah at first tried to run away.

He showed Judas, Judas completely went off the rails and in the totally wrong direction.

He showed the Apostles, they regularly misunderstood and ended up running away.

He showed Anias and Sapphira, they sinned by holding something back.

He showed Mother Teresa, she struggled mightily for decades.

No, His will does not always coincide with our own wishes.
 
Sure, God shows us where to use our talents. But being imperfect and concupiscent human beings we don’t always take the hint too well.
To be fair, the reverse is equally possible. We can also take the hint in a very wrong direction. Instead of running away, we run forward but in a reckless charge. Plenty of people did plenty of wrong under the assumption that God was telling them to.
 
To be fair, the reverse is equally possible. We can also take the hint in a very wrong direction. Instead of running away, we run forward but in a reckless charge. Plenty of people did plenty of wrong under the assumption that God was telling them to.
Oh certainly - Judas, at least to start with, almost certainly thought he was doing the right thing by turning Jesus over to the Jewish authorities.

None of which means any of us are exempt from trying to use our talents for God’s glory as best we can.

Note to Joseph - no we aren’t obligated to use every talent we possibly possess, nor to allow ourselves no time for leisure. But God who gave us our time and our talents, not to mention opportunities for self-donation, will call us to account for how we make use of them.

If the examples of Christ and the Saints (who we are all supposed to emulate, and the
more closely the better) teach us anything, it is that sitting on the beach all day is NOT likely to get you to heaven.

And that giving generously of yourself in the corporal and spiritual works of mercy (which includes things like engaging in philosophy, as long as one actually engages and doesn’t merely sit around thinking profound things but taking it no further) IS likely to get you to heaven.
 
In successive postings…Joseph gives us…

In response to my posting “God doesn’t want us to spend energy worrying in that way…He wants us to love with the generosity that is so plainly mentioned in Luke 10:27.”
I find it strange that anyone can “relax” with the threat of Hell hanging over them
in his very next posting:
Bottom line: God shows us where and when we use our talents. No one should feel stressed about this. You don’t even have to think about it.
I said earlier we need not worry…the only thing we need to do is live the Gospel…loving God as described in Luke, which Joseph continues to avoid the meaning and implications of loving God with total self-donation.

Anyone who understands what love is…a decision to give oneself in the moment in the model of Christ…will know that what Joseph says:
You don’t even have to think about it.
is simply not true.

Love is a willful act.
 
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