Is it a sin not to work?

[Joseph_Kemp]

EDWARD H WROTE: “Prove that we should not love with all our heart, soul, mind and strength…that we not should be perfect as our Father is perfect, that we should not always rejoice, and always pray…prove that we are not called to holiness. Prove those “extremes” away…and I will let you have the last word.”

• I will start right now. Any Catholic who has a simple faith life (Church, sacraments, prayer) can easily love God “with all (his/her) heart, soul, mind and strength.” Just because one may not be enormously involved in prayer, charity, or “good works” is absolutely no reason to say that a person is not loving God with all his/her “heart, soul, mind and strength.” You are wrong to imply otherwise.

You also mention that we must “always pray.” This, I assume, comes from the Biblical admonition to “Pray always." (1 Thes. 5,17) This does not mean what you imply that it does – that we have to somehow divide our attention, splitting our focus, and pray every second of every day, while simultaneously doing all the other ordinary things we do, like work and leisure – even to the point of “praying for others while they talk,” as you falsely said. This is a completely erroneous interpretation of the idea to “Pray always.”

The Catholic Church has always taught that it is very difficult to somehow avoid prayer. If you happen to recall something said in Church from the reading or homily, that is a prayer. If you see a beautiful landscape and recall God, that is a prayer. If you so much as think about God AT ALL, that is a prayer. There are TRILLIONS of ways to pray without even using WORDS.

Here is an article from a website called “Scrupulous Anonymous,” run by the Redemptorist Order of the Roman Catholic Church. This website is specifically set up the Redemptorist priests to help Catholics who suffer needless fears about their salvation. The information is very accurate and precise. This article is about the virtues about praying to God WITHOUT words, or even without effort.

mission.liguori.org/newsletters/pdf_archive/SA_0111.pdf

=====================================================================================

The Gift of Silence

The following is adapted from Finding Your Hidden Treasure: The Way of Silent Prayer by Benignus O’Rourke (© 2010 Liguori Publications).

Some time ago an elderly lady complained to me that she could no longer pray. She said, “I come here to church after my shopping and sit here all peaceful and quiet. But I can’t pray like I used to.”

I tried to suggest that perhaps sitting there all peaceful and quiet was prayer. Maybe it was a gift God was offering her at this stage of her life. But she wasn’t convinced. Prayer for her meant keeping her mind on the words, battling with distractions, concentrating. “Sitting there all peaceful and quiet” seemed like laziness and failure.

What my parishioner was discovering, in fact, was one of God’s loveliest gifts, the purest form of prayer. She rejected it because it wasn’t what she’d been taught. And she’s not alone. Many people who come to the retreat house share her anxiety about praying.

Many of us remember being taught that prayer is a lifting of our minds and hearts to God. This teaching can lay a heavy burden on us. We feel we must make an effort to speak to God—to praise him, to give thanks, to ask for help. We normally use words, thoughts, and images and feel we have to keep our minds fixed on what we’re saying.

But at times we cannot find the words. The well-known prayers that usually inspire and comfort us strike no chord in our hearts. We may be singing God’s praises while our hearts are heavy or empty. And our hearts become heavier because our feelings do not match the words. We are perhaps tired of words, anyway. Tired of asking God in words that have no life. Tired of thinking about God. Tired of being talked to about God. Tired of saying prayers that may be beautiful in themselves but are not bringing God closer to us.

Then, perhaps it is best to simplify our prayers and follow the age-old advice to go from many words to few words, from few words to one word, and from one word into silence.

Sometimes when we pray, our words—any words—can be barriers. They come between us and God. The deepest communion with God comes through silence.

=====================================================================================

-Everything in your (Edward H’s) description of Catholicism makes it sound like neverending, stressful, burdensome WORK. I cannot imagine a greater distortion of this simple, undemanding faith.

You, Edward H, challenged me to prove that we should not “be perfect as our Father is perfect.” You clearly mean by “perfect” that we should be treating our faith like toil, “working our way into Heaven” and despising all leisure time spent alone for ourselves, as you absolutely state above. (“A movie watched by ourselves for our own pleasure is suspect.”, “A priest once told me he had a hard time imaging a case where watching TV by oneself is a good idea.”) These things are shockingly wrong, disgustingly, even stomach-turningly wrong. They are truly anti-human. Why would you try to convince us of this? This is evil beyond belief.

Bottom line: You are clearly saying that enjoying life and leisure time spent alone are sinful. You are wrong. You were wrong when you first started saying it, and you are wrong now.

 

[Edward_H]

How does appropriate leisure do anything against the will of God? What about the seventh day? One of the greatest affronts to the Israelites in Egypt was when they were forced to work on the Sabboth. It was for the restoration of the Sabboth rest that they were freed from the Egyptians.

It doesn’t. God gave us the model that we should rest. Resting allows us to love more. Again…it’s the intention…the intention…the intention that is the essential point.

Do we rest to seek self-pleasure, in some sort of game balancing act? Or do we rest to prepare us to give more later, to love during our rest, or to love later after our rest.

Reading…so that we can contribute to good conversation, to recommend a book for others, to better understand truth. Spending time with family to better understand their needs, to help them, to coach them, to learn from them. Our rest should have a supernatural purpose…and it doesn’t detract at all from the rest, it gives rest a supernatural meaning. We rest with God. We invite Him to our rest.

With the slightest bit of outlook adjustment, our rest can become acts of love.

 

[Debora123]

She’s a self-professed linguist. Pleasing oneself doesn’t have to mean sexually…it can mean that. These forums are full of such talk.

The larger point is with respect to INTENTION. As I have said again and again…and it just skips over your minds…if the direct object of our actions is our pleasure…then that is not a holy pursuit.

Even sexuality in marriage should not be self-oriented. It shouldn’t even be “reciprocally
oriented”. It should be self-less, self-forgetting, self-donation.

Read Pope John Paul’s Theology of the Body.

So many Catholics have a flawed understanding of marriage, of sex, of love…it’s about self-donation. Total self-donation.

So…the larger point, if you’re still with us, is that pleasure pursued for something other than God and those that God puts in our life…begins to walk into the land of selfishness.

And this is true not just for sexual matters…but all forms of pleasure. If I like gardening…and I build a wall around my yard so that no one sees my work…that action isn’t other-oriented…it’s not “communio” (to use Cardinal George’s language). It’s me oriented.

I think you knew perfectly well what LW meant, and I think you are the one that is gravely flawed. By the way, LW is a HE.

 

[Debora123]

EDWARD H WROTE: “We are called to perfect holiness. Jesus told us this in the Bible. Our Church reinforced this in Vatican II. Why do you refuse repeated use of Biblical and Church writings?”

• I am not refusing anything in the Bible or the Church. I am merely refusing the false and hurtful spin you put on them. You are wrong.

EDWARD H WROTE: “If our dominant intention is us, our pleasure vs. loving God and others, then it’s not holiness.”

• Why would experiencing pleasure and enjoyment negate our relationship with God? What an absurd position. This, also, is wrong.

EDWARD H WROTE: “I can pursue holiness in a relaxing family conversation…by maintaining an awareness of God in our presence, by allowing others to talk, by not always talking about myself, by holding judgement, by praying for others as they talk,…by avoiding crudeness, by showing temperance, by being self-less. All of this can be done in leisure…and all of this can be done with the right and holy intention of pleasing God and loving others.”

• This is truly strange. You say we can pursue holiness by “praying for others as they talk.” What a remarkably stressful and uncomfortable (and false) thing to say. It sounds like work, not leisure. LISTENING to what others have to say would be more respectful than “praying…as they talk.” This is both wrong AND bizarre.

Also, the only “leisure activities” which you seem to approve of as “worthy” of doing are those done around others, FOR others. This, too, is wrong. Earlier, you wrote in this forum:

“A well picked movie, spent with our family can be a wonderful way to serve God. Wonderful. A movie watched by ourselves for our own pleasure is suspect. A movie watched by ourselves with the intention of previewing it for others (perhaps parents) could be fine. A priest once told me he had a hard time imaging a case where watching TV by oneself is a good idea. Possible…but the time would be better spent by going on a walk, greeting the neighbors with a smile, writing a letter to someone who is lonely, calling them. Reading a good book…perhaps to send to someone else later on. These forms of leisure seem to me to stack up higher than watching tv or a movie by oneself.”

• If you are seriously trying to say that enjoying leisure all by yourself, in solitude, is somehow sinful (“suspect,” is the word you used), you are ABSOLUTELY wrong. Enjoying leisure while alone has NEVER been condemned as a sin by the Roman Catholic Church. This is false in every imaginable way. You have consistently put forth this incorrect, erroneous message in your posts, and it was as wrong then as it is now.

And then you have the nerve to say to me: “Why must everything be maniacal and extreme for you?”

On the contrary. “Praying for others while they talk” is maniacal and extreme. Saying that “A movie watched by ourselves for our own pleasure is suspect” is maniacal and extreme. Claiming that “If your intention is to please yourself whether it is in work or in leisure, then it might be sinful” is maniacal and extreme. These beliefs are HERESIES, and they are hurtful and false in every possible way. And claiming that enjoyment and leisure done while alone are “suspect” is maniacal and extreme, too.

EDWARD H WROTE: “I never said good works get us to heaven. Ridiculous.”

• What you actually said is this:

“Would God the Father be most pleased if we all loved as His Son did?..Or sat around pleasing ourselves? (here’s where badly formed, misguided, hesitant, can’t I have it both ways, and some Once Saved Always Saved Protestants, answer Yes).”

You are very clearly describing me as “badly formed, misguided, hesitant, can’t I have it both ways,” simply because I advocate leisure as non-sinful. You also associate me with “Once Saved Always Saved Protestants.” Protestants, I might add, are well-known for believing good works do not earn them salvation. You are perfectly clear in your characterization of me as one who doesn’t believe in “working” my way into Heaven, either. You imply it’s a bad thing to “sit around pleasing ourselves (with leisure).” Such a thing, in your words, is only for the “badly formed, misguided, hesitant,” and for “some Once Saved Always Saved Protestants.”

You are thus absolutely clear that you believe good works earn us salvation. You object to leisure on possible every level, simply because leisure doesn’t strike you as a “good work,” or as “working your way into Heaven.” We have it in your own words. And you further imply that I have a “Once Saved Always Saved” mentality. You even object to simple enjoyment and fun! You say: “If your intention is to please yourself whether it is in work or in leisure, then it might be sinful.” This is utterly wrong. There is nothing sinful in finding enjoyment in leisure OR in work. Every last one of the things you have been saying here is wrong. The Catholic Church does not teach that leisure is sinful, or that enjoying ourselves is sinful. This is a completely false teaching, and a total waste of time.

 

[Debora123]

EDWARD H WROTE: “Prove that we should not love with all our heart, soul, mind and strength…that we not should be perfect as our Father is perfect, that we should not always rejoice, and always pray…prove that we are not called to holiness. Prove those “extremes” away…and I will let you have the last word.”

• I will start right now. Any Catholic who has a simple faith life (Church, sacraments, prayer) can easily love God “with all (his/her) heart, soul, mind and strength.” Just because one may not be enormously involved in prayer, charity, or “good works” is absolutely no reason to say that a person is not loving God with all his/her “heart, soul, mind and strength.” You are wrong to imply otherwise.

You also mention that we must “always pray.” This, I assume, comes from the Biblical admonition to “Pray always." (1 Thes. 5,17) This does not mean what you imply that it does – that we have to somehow divide our attention, splitting our focus, and pray every second of every day, while simultaneously doing all the other ordinary things we do, like work and leisure – even to the point of “praying for others while they talk,” as you falsely said. This is a completely erroneous interpretation of the idea to “Pray always.”

The Catholic Church has always taught that it is very difficult to somehow avoid prayer. If you happen to recall something said in Church from the reading or homily, that is a prayer. If you see a beautiful landscape and recall God, that is a prayer. If you so much as think about God AT ALL, that is a prayer. There are TRILLIONS of ways to pray without even using WORDS.

Here is an article from a website called “Scrupulous Anonymous,” run by the Redemptorist Order of the Roman Catholic Church. This website is specifically set up the Redemptorist priests to help Catholics who suffer needless fears about their salvation. The information is very accurate and precise. This article is about the virtues about praying to God WITHOUT words, or even without effort.

mission.liguori.org/newsletters/pdf_archive/SA_0111.pdf

=====================================================================================

The Gift of Silence

The following is adapted from Finding Your Hidden Treasure: The Way of Silent Prayer by Benignus O’Rourke (© 2010 Liguori Publications).

Some time ago an elderly lady complained to me that she could no longer pray. She said, “I come here to church after my shopping and sit here all peaceful and quiet. But I can’t pray like I used to.”

I tried to suggest that perhaps sitting there all peaceful and quiet was prayer. Maybe it was a gift God was offering her at this stage of her life. But she wasn’t convinced. Prayer for her meant keeping her mind on the words, battling with distractions, concentrating. “Sitting there all peaceful and quiet” seemed like laziness and failure.

What my parishioner was discovering, in fact, was one of God’s loveliest gifts, the purest form of prayer. She rejected it because it wasn’t what she’d been taught. And she’s not alone. Many people who come to the retreat house share her anxiety about praying.

Many of us remember being taught that prayer is a lifting of our minds and hearts to God. This teaching can lay a heavy burden on us. We feel we must make an effort to speak to God—to praise him, to give thanks, to ask for help. We normally use words, thoughts, and images and feel we have to keep our minds fixed on what we’re saying.

But at times we cannot find the words. The well-known prayers that usually inspire and comfort us strike no chord in our hearts. We may be singing God’s praises while our hearts are heavy or empty. And our hearts become heavier because our feelings do not match the words. We are perhaps tired of words, anyway. Tired of asking God in words that have no life. Tired of thinking about God. Tired of being talked to about God. Tired of saying prayers that may be beautiful in themselves but are not bringing God closer to us.

Then, perhaps it is best to simplify our prayers and follow the age-old advice to go from many words to few words, from few words to one word, and from one word into silence.

Sometimes when we pray, our words—any words—can be barriers. They come between us and God. The deepest communion with God comes through silence.

=====================================================================================

-Everything in your (Edward H’s) description of Catholicism makes it sound like neverending, stressful, burdensome WORK. I cannot imagine a greater distortion of this simple, undemanding faith.

You, Edward H, challenged me to prove that we should not “be perfect as our Father is perfect.” You clearly mean by “perfect” that we should be treating our faith like toil, “working our way into Heaven” and despising all leisure time spent alone for ourselves, as you absolutely state above. (“A movie watched by ourselves for our own pleasure is suspect.”, “A priest once told me he had a hard time imaging a case where watching TV by oneself is a good idea.”) These things are shockingly wrong, disgustingly, even stomach-turningly wrong. They are truly anti-human. Why would you try to convince us of this? This is evil beyond belief.

Bottom line: You are clearly saying that enjoying life and leisure time spent alone are sinful. You are wrong. You were wrong when you first started saying it, and you are wrong now.

 

[Edward_H]

I think you knew perfectly well what LW meant, and I think you are the one that is gravely flawed. By the way, LW is a HE.

My point about intention applies as strongly to both sexual and non sexual pleasure. Why do we do the things that we do. This is the how we examine our conscience. Why.

The sexual example simply made his ridiculous point more stark. But the reason for its flaw is the same.

 

[davidv]

My point about intention applies as strongly to both sexual and non sexual pleasure. Why do we do the things that we do. This is the how we examine our conscience. Why.

The sexual example simply made his ridiculous point more stark. But the reason for its flaw is the same.

Why do you ascribe an immoral intention to someone who pursues a leisure activity? Sounds like the kind of judgement we are warned not to make.

 

[Debora123]

Why do you ascribe an immoral intention to someone who pursues a leisure activity? Sounds like the kind of judgement we are warned not to make.

agreed

 

[Edward_H]

Why do you ascribe an immoral intention to someone who pursues a leisure activity? Sounds like the kind of judgement we are warned not to make.

David, you don’t get it. My intention should be primarily to please God in all things I do.

to the extent we are acting as the sad rich man coveting our things, our time, our leisure, our pleasure…holding on as it were…this is not a good thing.

What do you think it means to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and STRENGTH.

What do you think it means to lay our life down?

to not covet.

It’s about primacy of intent.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

She’s a self-professed linguist. Pleasing oneself doesn’t have to mean sexually…it can mean that. These forums are full of such talk.

The larger point is with respect to INTENTION. As I have said again and again…and it just skips over your minds…if the direct object of our actions is our pleasure…then that is not a holy pursuit.

Quit lying to yourself. If you even had retained just the tiniest shred of common sense from before you ever went all ‘spiritual’, you know darn well my definition of ‘pleasure’ (at the very least) is not limited to your skewed distortion. In that desperate attempt, you also miss the heart of my reasoning.

There is no inherent evil in pleasure. Evil lies in the violation of human dignity (be it for the sake of pleasure, God or what have you). You know that but you’re just so arrogant that you’re willing to jump at any opportunity to mutilate other people’s words.

P.S.

I’m a GUY FYI, not a ‘She’. Thanks for giving me more reason to doubt your capacity for wise judgment.

 

[davidv]

David, you don’t get it. My intention should be primarily to please God in all things I do.

to the extent we are acting as the sad rich man coveting our things, our time, our leisure, our pleasure…holding on as it were…this is not a good thing.

What do you think it means to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and STRENGTH.

What do you think it means to lay our life down?

to not covet.

It’s about primacy of intent.

How do you know what I get and what I don’t get?

Not only that, your response didn’t address the question that was posed to you.

Why are you changing the subject?

 

[Edward_H]

How do you know what I get and what I don’t get?

Not only that, your response didn’t address the question that was posed to you.

Why are you changing the subject?

Because you keep skipping over the Biblical points. I continue to go back to them, again and again and again.

Haven’t changed any subject.

Love, self-donation, focus of our actions, intention, laying down our life, loving with all our heart mind, soul, strength, laying down our life…all done for God, with God. giving us a unity of life.

Sound familiar?

 

[davidv]

Because you keep skipping over the Biblical points. I continue to go back to them, again and again and again.

Haven’t changed any subject.

Love, self-donation, focus of our actions, intention, laying down our life, loving with all our heart mind, soul, strength, laying down our life…all done for God, with God. giving us a unity of life.

Sound familiar?

It sure sounds familiar, but I have no clue how it addresses the points raised. Nor does it come close to condemning leisure activities.

 

[Edward_H]

It sure sounds familiar, but I have no clue how it addresses the points raised. Nor does it come close to condemning leisure activities.

Very well.

How do reconcile and put into practice (our ordinary day) Biblical passages such as "pray always; rejoice always; love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength; how do we lay our life down; how do we “be perfect as…[our] Heavenly Father is”, how do we pursue holiness, how do we become perfected in the image of Christ?

How can we do all this and still work, drive our car, fix our child’s bike chain, relax, sleep, rest our bodies from rough work?

How can we do all this stuff…? without becoming scrupulous, without losing our mind?

Very simply. We convert, with God’s grace, our entire day into prayer. We give our actions an intent at the beginning of the day (Morning Offering), which we can renew it as we remember to do so. We can work with great attention and love…giving our work a supernatural intent…“Lord i will struggle like you did on Calvary…I offer up my work for all expectant mothers”.

We can rest with a holy intention.

All activity becomes done with God, for God, for the love of Him and others.

Unity of life occurs as result.

Rest is done though for God. Rest is not our time away from God and work. We do all things with God. No schizophrenia/bi polarity.

Work becomes prayer, so does rest. A real stable interior life develops…the presence of God in our mind and our day influences more and more what we do.

 

[Edward_H]

It sure sounds familiar, but I have no clue how it addresses the points raised. Nor does it come close to condemning leisure activities.

And by the way…for the 1 millionth time. I am not condemning work. You will find no support for this assertion in my writing.

You have added that. You’ve jumped to that conclusion.

It’s the intention.

If I intend to slip away in the Garden hiding myself from God…the way Adam and Eve did…then God may ask us what we’re up to. Why we are covering ourselves!!

 

[davidv]

Very well.

How do reconcile and put into practice (our ordinary day) Biblical passages such as "pray always; rejoice always; love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength; how do we lay our life down; how do we “be perfect as…[our] Heavenly Father is”, how do we pursue holiness, how do we become perfected in the image of Christ?

By loving God, and neighbor. Sometimes this means doing leisure activities with others.

CCC:

2194 The institution of Sunday helps all “to be allowed sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives” (*GS *67 § 3).

How can we do all this and still work, drive our car, fix our child’s bike chain, relax, sleep, rest our bodies from rough work?

How can do all this stuff…? without becoming scrupulous, without losing our mind.

Very simply. We convert, with God’s grace, our entire day into prayer. We give our actions an intent at the beginning of the day (Morning intention), which we can renew as we remember to. We can work with great attention and love…giving our work a supernatural intent…“Lord i will struggle like you did on Calvary…I offer up my work for all expectant mothers”.

We can rest with a holy intention.

All activity becomes done with God, for God, for the love of Him and others.

Why doesn’t this include leisure activity?

Unity of life occurs as result.

Rest is done though for God.

Who said, or implied that it was not?

Rest is not our time away from God and work. We do all things with God. No schizophrenia/bi polarity.

Work becomes prayer, do does rest. A real stable interior life develops…the presence of God in our mind and our day influences more and more what we do.

 

[Edward_H]

By loving God, and neighbor. Sometimes this means doing leisure activities with others.

Why doesn’t this include leisure activity?

Who said, or implied that it was not?

No kidding. You really don’t get intention do you?

Leisure can be done for different intentions.

If I am engaging with others…helping them pursue their true good…for the love of God, great.

If I am engaging with others, vainly drawing attention to myself, or using them to pursue my pleasure, or pridefully controlling the circumstances…or one upping them in conversation…or endangerign their good by going places immoral…then no…that leisure is not good.

 

[davidv]

No kidding. You really don’t get intention do you?

Clearly we are not communicating. I understand intention. I also understand that you cannot know anyone’s intentions other that your own. So, I am clearly missing your point.

Leisure can be done for different intentions.

If I am engaging with others…helping them pursue their true good…for the love of God, great.

If I am engaging with others, vainly drawing attention to myself, or using them to pursue my pleasure, or pridefully controlling the circumstances…or one upping them in conversation…or endangerign their good by going places immoral…then no…that leisure is not good.

Can leisure activity, with a moral intention, that includes pleasure be moral?

 

[Edward_H]

Clearly we are not communicating. I understand intention. I also understand that you cannot know anyone’s intentions other that your own. So, I am clearly missing your point.

Can leisure activity, with a moral intention, that includes pleasure be moral?

If you truly understand what intention does…then you understand my point.

I haven’t labeled anything moral or condemned anything…despite your and Joseph’s attempt to insertion.

All I know is that we should love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength.

If we’re holding back, coveting our time, leisure, carving out a portion of our time, hiding from God, gently walling him out…then we might want to take that to prayer and examination.

 

[Edward_H]

Joseph wrote:

EDWARD H WROTE: “I can pursue holiness in a relaxing family conversation…by maintaining an awareness of God in our presence, by allowing others to talk, by not always talking about myself, by holding judgement, by praying for others as they talk,…by avoiding crudeness, by showing temperance, by being self-less. All of this can be done in leisure…and all of this can be done with the right and holy intention of pleasing God and loving others.”

• This is truly strange. You say we can pursue holiness by “praying for others as they talk.” What a remarkably stressful and uncomfortable (and false) thing to say. It sounds like work, not leisure. LISTENING to what others have to say would be more respectful than “praying…as they talk.” This is both wrong AND bizarre.

Joseph, you make it seem like adding Joy Himself to your conversation with friends would be “remarkably stressful and uncomfortable (even “false”)”…

My what a strange impoverished and false understanding of God, your Father, you have. Do you ever look among your friends as another friend talks, noticing head nods, encouraging looks. Who is Encouragement Himself? Having a presence of God is actually calming and warming and simplifying.