Is it a sin to attend/celebrate the Passover Seder?

[Alexander_Roman]

Curious as to why this question turned up on the Traditional forum. If the question is, Do Traditional Catholics attend seders ? The best answer I could give is a firm no./QUOT

No one says they should. But if Traditional Catholics (and they are the very best Catholics in my view) hold a Seder in their home, I would attend and have attended.

I would be wary of speaking out on behalf of all Tridentine Catholics without having asked them.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I thought the Traditional Forum would have a good grasp on what was taught prior to Vatican II…including actual links to documents, etc. Unfortunately only one post provided that…and I have yet to read it completely. My initial reaction to what I have read, however, is that it doesn’t seem to prove the assertion that Catholic doctrine taught that it’s a sin to attend a Jewish Seder.

To attend a Jewish Seder at a friend’s home if one were invited is no sin since this is a private celebration and the most that will happen is that they will give you a yarmulka.

There are ancient canonical sanctions against, for example, attending a synagogue to participate (by lighting candles etc.) there or in any other non-Catholic place of worship.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear Friends,

I apologise to anyone for anything I have written here.

I will stay off the Catholic Answers Forums for the duration of Lent to avoid being a contrarian . . .

A blessed Lent to one and all!

Alex

 

[SouthpawLink]

My husband is telling me that Pre-Vatican II that it was a sin to attend any non-Catholic (“pagan”) ceremonies, etc. Is there Catholic teaching that supports this prior to Vatican II? Also, what about current teaching…did it really change?

I can certainly see his point that we are taking part in a ceremony that denies Christ. Yet, I am torn on this.

Well, attendance at non-Catholic (but still Christian) services – provided there was a good reason for it and the Catholic didn’t actively participate (e.g., sing, pray, play organ) – was allowed. I don’t think there was any allowance to attend non-Christian services.

As for the Passover Seder, it has been abrogated. Consider:

“It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosiac law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation” (Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, A.D. 1441: Denz. 712).

catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma8.php

 

[meltzerboy]

Well, attendance at non-Catholic (but still Christian) services – provided there was a good reason for it and the Catholic didn’t actively participate (e.g., sing, pray, play organ) – was allowed. I don’t think there was any allowance to attend non-Christian services.

As for the Passover Seder, it has been abrogated. Consider:

“It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosiac law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation” (Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, A.D. 1441: Denz. 712).

catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma8.php

Again, as in your other post, your reasoning is logical. However, there are no required sacraments for salvation in Judaism, even Torah (Orthodox) Judaism. True, Orthodox Jews encourage obeying as many of the 613 commandments as one can (in part to make the mundane more spiritual) although many, even most, of them cannot be obeyed today. Yet this is in no way a precondition of salvation for Jews or non-Jews. There are several other factors that are an important part of the equation, such as effort, intention, and what one is capable of given one’s present circumstances. Despite this, I agree with the statement that the Jewish Passover Seder does not express the same essence as the Catholic Seder in terms of the rituals and ceremonies and what they represent from a religious perspective.

 

[baylee]

Well, attendance at non-Catholic (but still Christian) services – provided there was a good reason for it and the Catholic didn’t actively participate (e.g., sing, pray, play organ) – was allowed. I don’t think there was any allowance to attend non-Christian services.

As for the Passover Seder, it has been abrogated. Consider:

“It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosiac law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation” (Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, A.D. 1441: Denz. 712).

catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma8.php

Regarding the bolded part: I see that as more of one who placed hope in those ceremonies, not just attending them. I see a huge difference there and therefore see no mortal sin in attending. When I attend my family’s Seder I am in no way placing hope in the Seder or the Old Covenant. I am very aware that Christ supercedes.

Here’s another question. If we are not to attend non-Christian services, then are you telling me that, when my Jewish mother dies, I am not to attend her funeral…because it will probably be a Jewish funeral? Seriously?

 

[meltzerboy]

Regarding the bolded part: I see that as more of one who placed hope in those ceremonies, not just attending them. I see a huge difference there and therefore see no mortal sin in attending. When I attend my family’s Seder I am in no way placing hope in the Seder or the Old Covenant. I am very aware that Christ supercedes.

Here’s another question. If we are not to attend non-Christian services, then are you telling me that, when my Jewish mother dies, I am not to attend her funeral…because it will probably be a Jewish funeral? Seriously?

As a Reform Jew, I am certainly no expert on the teachings of Catholicism or even Judaism; but I seem to recall a Catholic concept of “individual conscience” (prompted perhaps by the Holy Spirit), and this may very well be your best guide in such matters. One of the Elders on the Forum can probably respond to this issue.

 

[meltzerboy]

Regarding the bolded part: I see that as more of one who placed hope in those ceremonies, not just attending them. I see a huge difference there and therefore see no mortal sin in attending. When I attend my family’s Seder I am in no way placing hope in the Seder or the Old Covenant. I am very aware that Christ supercedes.

Here’s another question. If we are not to attend non-Christian services, then are you telling me that, when my Jewish mother dies, I am not to attend her funeral…because it will probably be a Jewish funeral? Seriously?

One other point that may help in your decision, especially with regard to attending a parent’s funeral. While honoring G-d is paramount, I view the commandment “Honor thy father and thy mother” as very important and also an expression of your obedience to G-d.

 

[Gregory_I]

Just don’t go and do not worry about erring.

THe Catholic church is the FOnt and SUmmit of all truth: If they got it, we got MORE. Don’t chase after anyone else’s religion when the one established by Christ is BETTER than all of them.

Yep, BETTER.

 

[meltzerboy]

Just don’t go and do not worry about erring.

THe Catholic church is the FOnt and SUmmit of all truth: If they got it, we got MORE. Don’t chase after anyone else’s religion when the one established by Christ is BETTER than all of them.

Yep, BETTER.

It doesn’t seem to me that the OP is “chasing after anyone else’s religion.” She seems to be committed to the Catholic faith. She is talking about going to a Passover Seder given by her family, not just anyone else. This is the family she grew up in as a Jew, the family I assume she loves and who loves her. It is a very personal dilemma, not a matter of the comparative merits of one religious belief as opposed to another. She does not want to sin against her faith and, at the same time, she does not want to offend or alienate her family. It’s not an issue of wishing to convert back to Judaism.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Actually, at all the Seders I’ve attended at my Catholic friends’ homes and at two parish halls up here - Christ was/is most assuredly acknowledged as our Lord, God and Saviour!

I think some here may be confusing the idea of a Seder held by Catholics with a Seder at a Jewish friend’s home. The two are completely different.

I have a Jewish uncle and have held a Christian Seder at which he attended. I had Christian icons of Old Testament Saints in the room and wore my Cross (and a Star of David) on top of my sweater for the occasion. He thanked me for bringing me in touch with his Jewish heritage.

When the same uncle came through a very difficult operation in which a piece of his neckbone was surgically removed and doctors said there was the chance he would not survive or else ever walk again (an injury he sustained during the Korean War), he turned to me in hospital and said, “I pulled through because the Lord Jesus was standing next to me - I saw Him there looking at me, you have to believe me.”

Perhaps we forget that we must be all things to all people. To the Jews, I am a Jew.

Alex

To tell you the truth, I would not know what to do if i was in this situation either if it was my family. I suppose she could be a good witness for the Truth if she went. who knows. she could avoid participating if she sees something happening which a denial of Christ, I dont know.

 

[meltzerboy]

To tell you the truth, I would not know what to do if i was in this situation either if it was my family. I suppose she could be a good witness for the Truth if she went. who knows. she could avoid participating if she sees something happening which a denial of Christ, I dont know.

I realize you’re just tossing out possibilities; but, honestly, do you think this would be an appropriate occasion for proselytizing?! I wonder whether she has discussed her feelings with her family: that might be a good first step.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I realize you’re just tossing out possibilities; but, honestly, do you think this would be an appropriate occasion for proselytizing?! I wonder whether she has discussed her feelings with her family: that might be a good first step.

Proselytizing? what does that mean? our Lord told the Apostles to go into the whole world and teach all men. I dont care about the word proselytizing. Really. We are here to obey God and not man. I dont know her situation. I just know that what our Lord commands, we must do.

 

[SouthpawLink]

Again, as in your other post, your reasoning is logical. However, there are no required sacraments for salvation in Judaism, even Torah (Orthodox) Judaism. True, Orthodox Jews encourage obeying as many of the 613 commandments as one can (in part to make the mundane more spiritual) although many, even most, of them cannot be obeyed today. Yet this is in no way a precondition of salvation for Jews or non-Jews. There are several other factors that are an important part of the equation, such as effort, intention, and what one is capable of given one’s present circumstances. Despite this, I agree with the statement that the Jewish Passover Seder does not express the same essence as the Catholic Seder in terms of the rituals and ceremonies and what they represent from a religious perspective.

So long as the Seder foreshadows Christ, it should not be restored by Catholics: “precepts whose main function was to foreshadow the coming Messiah should not be restored” (Pope Benedict XIV, Ex Quo, n. 63; 1 March 1756). That does not mean that nothing can be restored, however:

“it cannot be absolutely asserted that that man judaizes who does something
in the Church which corresponds to the ceremonies of the old Law. ‘If a man
should perform acts for a different end and purpose (even with the intention of
worship and as religious ceremonies), not in the spirit of that Law nor on the
basis of it, but either from personal decision, from human custom, or on the
instruction of the Church, he would not sin, nor could he be said to judaize. So
when a man does something in the Church which resembles the ceremonies of the
old Law, he must not always be said to judaize’” (Ibid., n. 67).

baylee:

Regarding the bolded part: I see that as more of one who placed hope in those ceremonies, not just attending them. I see a huge difference there and therefore see no mortal sin in attending. When I attend my family’s Seder I am in no way placing hope in the Seder or the Old Covenant. I am very aware that Christ supercedes.

After the promulgation of the Gospel, regardless of your intent, you cannot observe it withouout sin (because it foreshadows the Holy Eucharist, which we already have).

 

[meltzerboy]

Proselytizing? what does that mean? our Lord told the Apostles to go into the whole world and teach all men. I dont care about the word proselytizing. Really. We are here to obey God and not man. I dont know her situation. I just know that what our Lord commands, we must do.

Pardon my ignorance: I thought that is what you meant when you stated that maybe she could be a “witness” at the Seder. I had no intention of upsetting you by using the word “proselytizing” and please correct me if being a witness has a different meaning. If you prefer, let’s say “teaching” her family at the Seder.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Pardon my ignorance: I thought that is what you meant when you stated that maybe she could be a “witness” at the Seder. I had no intention of upsetting you by using the word “proselytizing” and please correct me if being a witness has a different meaning. If you prefer, let’s say “teaching” her family at the Seder.

I am not upset over what you said. By witness I meant, if she sees anything that is contrary to the Faith, she must abstain from participation, By acting in her believes she would be witnessing to her faith. We Catholics dont always to have run our mouth to be witness to the Truth. We as Catholic have a defined Faith. The whole world can identify who we are just by what we do. Peace.

 

[baylee]

It doesn’t seem to me that the OP is “chasing after anyone else’s religion.” She seems to be committed to the Catholic faith. She is talking about going to a Passover Seder given by her family, not just anyone else. This is the family she grew up in as a Jew, the family I assume she loves and who loves her. It is a very personal dilemma, not a matter of the comparative merits of one religious belief as opposed to another. She does not want to sin against her faith and, at the same time, she does not want to offend or alienate her family. It’s not an issue of wishing to convert back to Judaism.

Why doesn’t it surprise me that it took a Jew to get this?

 

[baylee]

I am not upset over what you said. By witness I meant, if she sees anything that is contrary to the Faith, she must abstain from participation, By acting in her believes she would be witnessing to her faith. We Catholics dont always to have run our mouth to be witness to the Truth. We as Catholic have a defined Faith. The whole world can identify who we are just by what we do. Peace.

Honestly, I think the only part of the seder that I could see as objectionable to our Catholic Faith is at the end of the seder when the youngest in the family opens the front door for Elijah (who is believed to announce the coming of the Messiah). We, of course, believe he has already arrived. Since I am not technically taking part in that, I’m not so sure I’ve done anything wrong. When it’s happening, I am definitely thinking that this is pointless now. I think it’s enough that my Jewish family already knows that I disagree on this matter.

Otherwise, all I see the in the seder is the re-telling of a Bible story…one that we tell at the Easter Vigil every year.

 

[meltzerboy]

So long as the Seder foreshadows Christ, it should not be restored by Catholics: “precepts whose main function was to foreshadow the coming Messiah should not be restored” (Pope Benedict XIV, Ex Quo, n. 63; 1 March 1756). That does not mean that nothing can be restored, however:

“it cannot be absolutely asserted that that man judaizes who does something
in the Church which corresponds to the ceremonies of the old Law. ‘If a man
should perform acts for a different end and purpose (even with the intention of
worship and as religious ceremonies), not in the spirit of that Law nor on the
basis of it, but either from personal decision, from human custom, or on the
instruction of the Church, he would not sin, nor could he be said to judaize. So
when a man does something in the Church which resembles the ceremonies of the
old Law, he must not always be said to judaize’” (Ibid., n. 67).

After the promulgation of the Gospel, regardless of your intent, you cannot observe it withouout sin (because it foreshadows the Holy Eucharist, which we already have).

I have to agree with you on this from the Catholic perspective. From the Judaic perspective, however, the ceremony does not foreshadow the Eucharist, but is rather the retelling of a PAST event in which G-d, through Moses, liberated the Jewish people. Putting my mind into my understanding of the Catholic framework, the objection I have would not so much be that the Seder foreshadows a ceremony which already exists in Catholicism (since that ceremony has an essentially different meaning), but that the Seder ritual itself, as well as other Jewish rituals, is (I believe) meant to be superseded by the death and resurrection of Jesus. Thus, to Christians, it is irrelevant at best and sacrilegious at worst.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Honestly, I think the only part of the seder that I could see as objectionable to our Catholic Faith is at the end of the seder when the youngest in the family opens the front door for Elijah (who is believed to announce the coming of the Messiah). We, of course, believe he has already arrived. Since I am not technically taking part in that, I’m not so sure I’ve done anything wrong. When it’s happening, I am definitely thinking that this is pointless now. I think it’s enough that my Jewish family already knows that I disagree on this matter.

Otherwise, all I see the in the seder is the re-telling of a Bible story…one that we tell at the Easter Vigil every year.

Exactly. I agree with you. I dont know what I would do if I was in your place. I would probably participate but I would abstain from anything that is contrary to the Faith. I dont know what that would be, but I assume you know it.