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mdrummer5
Guest
Thank you for bringing clarity to this. I love the spiritual journey I’m on but having grown up Jewish some of the ignorance I’ve read on these boards regarding Jewish worship is just ridiculous.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
No sir. I didn’t say anyone denied Christ, only that those Catholics who participate in a Passover at home or at a parish hall could not be said to deny Christ.Well , I didnt say they DENIED Christ , you did. Second - Jesus is GOD and The HOLY EUCHARIST is the Real Presence = GOD. So , what you are saying is - by going to a Hebrew Seder instead of HOLY MASS where the transubstantiated Host which is GOD (Dogma) is somehow better? Sorry - but they do not see Christ in the Flesh at a seder.
At no time would a Christian celebration of the Passover be a “replacement” for the Holy Mass. That is quite laughable sir!
Such a celebration by Christians would simply be a way to relive the Old Testament story of the flight from Egypt and God’s covenant with His People which foreshadowed His covenant through His People with all of humankind in His Son, Our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
I can’t make it any clearer than that sir.
FYI, I developed a legislative bill to make Robert Burns’ Day a holiday in Ontario.
Shalom!
Alex
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
I hope Robert Burns reads your excellent post!So many who simply do not understand what a Seder is. It is NOT a Jewish religious service, in the sense that it is their form of worship. It never has been that.
It did NOT stand for anything prior to Calvary, other than what it was, and what it remains. It is a CELEBRATION of the fact that God led the Jews out of Egypt, through the mechanism of the “Passover”, which refers to the fact that the “Angel of death passed over the homes of the Jews, who had identified their homes with the blood of a lamb painted on the doorposts and lintel.”
It is a celebration of the compassion and love of God, and of his eternal covenant with the Jews, his “Chosen People”.
Our Church teaches that the Jews are STILL his chose people.
Some of you REALLY need to learn about what other religions actually do, and about our own theology.
I, as a child, both before and after my baptism into the Catholic Church, attended many church services conducted by my grandfather, who was a Free Methodist Minister for 55 years. I did this with the full knowledge and approval of my parish priest, and with the dispensation of the Archbishop of San Francisco. This was PRE-VATICAN II folks.
The ONLY thing I could not do was to state their expression of faith, and partake of their communion. But, I was free to attend the services, and I spoke at his funeral, which was conducted by two ministers of that church. I also spoke at his graveside service, and led the “Our Father” there.
Instead of spreading “superstition” to others, how about some reality. It was NEVER considered a sin to participate in a Seder, which under Jewish rules ALWAYS takes place in a home, and never in the Temple.
I had good nuns, brothers and even a few priests tell me a lot of superstitious nonsense about what was, and what was not a sin. Things like, “Having a wet dream was a sin”. Or, “Even thinking about sex for an instant was a mortal sin”.
It was only when I went to Seminary myself that I learned what the official teachings of the church were. And I went PRE-VATIVCAN II, to the Passionist’s. They were hardly a “liberal” organization back then.
Alex
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
It has always amazed me how some Catholics assert how the Church is true to the end will stop at some point after Vatican II . . .Thanks Phemie. Unfortunately, I think my husband would see the date on that (1980) and think…“of course it says it’s okay”. Is there anything out there from before Vatican II? He’ll only listen to something official prior to VII.
How does that work?
Alex
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wisdomseeker
Guest
But my question is: did the Apostles still celebrated this festival or they just gave all up and just begin to celebrate only the Eucharist the new Covenant?Because it is a meal that I celebrated with my family for over 30 years as a Jew…and I have since shared it with them as a Catholic. In other words, for me, this isn’t just any seder.
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Phemie
Guest
I believe the Bible shows that in the early days it was felt that you had to be a Jew (be circumcised) to be a follower of Christ. That changed over the years but no, the Apostles didn’t stop being practicing Jews, they added the Eucharist.But my question is: did the Apostles still celebrated this festival or they just gave all up and just begin to celebrate only the Eucharist the new Covenant?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Nice post. We must take care about what we do. Now and days, people seem to go want to go back to old ways. they are trying to integrate things that doesnt belong in teh Church, things like new age, voodoo worship, eastern beliefsn, and syncretism. as we know this is happening. The pope calls it the new paganism invading our minds because the teachings of the Church have been so week in teh past 40s years or so. The teachings has been hidden and Catholics are all over the place.The celebration of the Jewish version of the Passover Seder meal, as far as I understand it, would be a sin if one was conscious of the fact that such a celebration was meant to be interpreted as a longing for the Messiah or Promised One, Who has come and can be found in any Catholic Church. If it pretends as if Christ has not come, then it is tantamount to a denial of Christ, Who is God. A Christianization of this tradition is, of course, harmless.
Christ, being God, is due all our love with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength. But from what you are telling me, it would be a participation in a ritual celebration of another religion that, in its practice, denies Christ is come. There is a difference between family customs and traditions on one hand, and the ritualistic celebrations and enactments of religion on the other. Again, Christ Jesus is God, and if we imagine to do or offer anything to anyone save Him, we do appear to deny Him in fact and deed : Christ is “the Wisdom of God,” the very “Word of God.” He is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, inseperable from God for and from all eternity, reigning at the Father’s right-hand in Heaven, being the very “Arm of God.” The bread speaks of His Body, and the wine of His Blood.
Now Catholic writers have been very careful and tender as regards familial bonds and relationships, and have always distinguished betwen obligations due to family and secular community (e.g., work and civil relationships), giving much more lee-way for familial bonds than anything outside the family context ; however, it appears you are not bound to this anymore, being now married. It would follow that your first duty is to Christ your God, and nowhere have I ever heard of any precedent being established that permitted us to deny Christ, implicitly or explicitly, for the sake of traditions or family.
You are a daughter of Grace, another Mary, a lily of Israel, and your citizenship is in Heaven, and your discourse there also ; your Passover Seder is of the New and Eternal Covenant, containing Christ Himself. This one promises you Life Eternal and the joy of Heaven, and it establishes you as an heir in the House and Family of God, with direct recourse always to your God ; one of the children of the free-woman ; the former, however, cannot, as it is but a type and prefigurement, fulfilled, realized and properly understood only in Christ Jesus, because He Himself is ultimately the originator even of the type. He holds the keys to its proper meaning and understanding, being the author of it, and its fulfillment.
My deepest concern is of the human inclination to return to things familiar and known and restore past habits for the sake of mere tradition. There is danger that we become tempted to revert, whether explicitly or - equally as important - implicitly, that is in heart, desire or spirit. Many customs and traditions of my own family are snares to me, for example, as they are the fruit of what is a practical atheism. Doing them without believing or accepting them is always difficult, and still more difficult to justify outside the context of utter necessity or even outright force.
I therefore am unchanged in my opinion, and feel I must warn you not to permit yourself to be even tempted to make Esau’s most grievous mistake, wherein he exchanged his birthright for a simple meal.
Pax Christi,
Tim
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Barbkw
Guest
From what I’ve read, the removal of leven from a home for Passover, is symbolically similar to Lent.I believe the Bible shows that in the early days it was felt that you had to be a Jew (be circumcised) to be a follower of Christ. That changed over the years but no, the Apostles didn’t stop being practicing Jews, they added the Eucharist.
The physical leven in a home represents personal sin that hides in our relationship with God and with our relationship with other people.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
The “Semitic Churches” such as the Ethiopian Christians continue to celebrate Passover in their homes on Holy Thursday - a tradition they say comes to them directly from the Apostles and the Church of Jerusalem.But my question is: did the Apostles still celebrated this festival or they just gave all up and just begin to celebrate only the Eucharist the new Covenant?
Certainly, the meaning of the Jewish rituals changed with Christianity. There is no reason to assume that they were abandoned totally in the Jewish Church of Jerusalem where Christians continued to regularly attend the Temple services until they were excommunicated.
The Ethiopian Christians commemorate a total of seven Covenants that God made with humanity since the Creation:
- Marriage of Adam and Eve
- Rainbow of Noah
- Offering of Melchizedek
- Circumcision of Abraham
- Ark of Moses
- Throne of David
- Crucified and Resurrected Body of OLGS Jesus Christ.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
And just how you woudl know this? did the early Christians continued to practice this?I believe the Bible shows that in the early days it was felt that you had to be a Jew (be circumcised) to be a follower of Christ. That changed over the years but no, the Apostles didn’t stop being practicing Jews, they added the Eucharist.
Yes, I know about the jews who wanted the Christians to become jews first. this issue was settled by the Apostles in the very beginnig. now, maybe the early jews who became Christians may have continued celebrated this feast, I dont know but I think they probably stopped once they understood the teachings of Christ, I dont know.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
Jews who became Christians in the early days of the Church continued with many of their Jewish practices, just as pagans who became Christians developed their own “rites” and faith culture based on their traditions.And just how you woudl know this? did the early Christians continued to practice this?
Yes, I know about the jews who wanted the Christians to become jews first. this issue was settled by the Apostles in the very beginnig. now, maybe the early jews who became Christians may have continued celebrated this feast, I dont know but I think they probably stopped once they understood the teachings of Christ, I dont know.
It is the Ark of Moses, not the Passover, that sealed the Covenant of God with the children of Israel. The Passover, to Christians, is a symbol of the Resurrection of Christ, just as Joseph, son of Jacob, is a symbol of Christ Himself, having been cast into a pit, brought up, etc. In the Eastern Churches, Joseph is always commemorated on the Monday of Holy Week for that reason.
All this has to do with culture and the different and variable ways the Christian faith is expressed. Passover is an eminent OT symbol that speaks of the Resurrection of Christ and of His leading His Church from Egypt to the Promised Land.
As for how we know the Apostles first believed that Christianity was tied only to the Jewish tradition - the vision of St Peter when he prayed at the sixth hour re: a cloth bearing unclean foods brought down from heaven. When he refused to eat (i.e. have anything to do with Gentile matterrs because they were unclean), he was told not to judge as unclean what God had called etc.
Alex
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Yes, but since Christ came, we no longer celebrate what is to come but celebrate the one who came. Jews continued to celebrate because they deny Christ. they may still celebrate because they still believe that Christ is not the One. am i wrong?Jews who became Christians in the early days of the Church continued with many of their Jewish practices, just as pagans who became Christians developed their own “rites” and faith culture based on their traditions.
It is the Ark of Moses, not the Passover, that sealed the Covenant of God with the children of Israel. The Passover, to Christians, is a symbol of the Resurrection of Christ, just as Joseph, son of Jacob, is a symbol of Christ Himself, having been cast into a pit, brought up, etc. In the Eastern Churches, Joseph is always commemorated on the Monday of Holy Week for that reason.
All this has to do with culture and the different and variable ways the Christian faith is expressed. Passover is an eminent OT symbol that speaks of the Resurrection of Christ and of His leading His Church from Egypt to the Promised Land.
Alex
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Barbkw
Guest
Alexander Roman,“…just as pagans who became Christians developed their own “rites” and faith culture based on their traditions.”
Which rites are you referring to?
I’ve read that in the Early Church, the process of catechizing pagans into JudeoChristianity took as long as a year.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
It all depends, of course, on the interpretation. The Passover celebrates freedom and release from Egypt in the blood of the lamb which foreshadows the salvation in the Blood of the Divine Lamb of God.Yes, but since Christ came, we no longer celebrate what is to come but celebrate the one who came. Jews continued to celebrate because they deny Christ. they may still celebrate because they still believe that Christ is not the One. am i wrong?
Again, such passover celebrations are conducted by Catholics as Christian services to reflect on our journey to Christ during Lent especially. We repent of our sins and fast and pray while reflecting on the Hebrew Scriptures and their prophecies about the Expected Messiah. I can see the symbolism of Passover as a way to bring this home.
Interestingly enough, in both the Greek and Latin versions of the scriptures, the actual sign that the Children of Israel are asked to make with the blood of the lamb on their doorposts so that the angel of death would pass over them is the . . . Tau or “T” sign. Pope Innocent III had a sermon on this and how the Cross was prefigured already in the Hebrew Scriptures. St Francis heard this sermon and decided to make the Tau his own Cross and that of his Order.
Everything for us Christians is fulfilled in the Light of Christ. The Hebrew Scriptures are meaningful to us precisely because they prophesy the coming of Christ. The fact that He has come and has inaugurated the New Covenant does not make the Old Testament irrelevant. The same is true of the Psalms that contain a number of prophecies concerning the Messiah and which Christians have prayed and prayed throughout the centuries.
The celebration of the Passover meal by Catholics at home or in parish halls can be a way to encounter Christ in his own milieu and would sensitize us to the OT prophecies concerning him and also to the long journey taken by all those who waited on the Messiah, but didn’t get to see Him (unlike John the Baptist, Simeon in the Temple etc.).
Lent is a journey which we as Catholics also take with the Righteous Ones of the Old Covenant who looked to the Messiah. Our journey and hunger has been fulfilled in Christ, but that doesn’t mean we cannot relive it or feel anew the hunger, heightened by fasting and prayer, for deepened union with Christ.
Alex
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Iotaunum
Guest
This makes no difference. Even IF the Jewish service was conducted and attended soley by Catholics it is still a service of the Old Law which was Superceeded by the New Law. There is no need whatsoever for a Catholic to take part in such a service. That is like Catholics sacraficing animals or being circumcised “in a Christian context”. That time would be better spent saying the Rosary.OK - Agreed. We’re talking about a Passover Seder in a Christian context in Catholic homes and parishes.
Besides, the person who posted the question said they were "a Jewish convert to the Catholic Faith and that this seder is not just any seder, but the seder my family celebrates every year" - thus it is not ***“in a Christian context in Catholic homes and parishes.” ***
Firstly, 99.9% of those who have a Seder are Jewish and therefore reject Christ and the Mass completely. Secondly; a Catholic who belives in Christ and goes to Mass etc, has no call to attend any Jewish service even with the most Christian of intentions. This is for various reasons as outlined by Pope Pius XI.Those who have a Seder are not trying to denigrate the Mass in any way.
Again, this is not the issue being discussed.There are traditions European Catholics have taken from their pagan past that have been Christianized over time.
Well, I did not say that this particular case was one of ecumenical intentions, but it is a fact that the majority of Catholics (including priests etc) who attend non-Catholic rituals and services, do so on the basis of ecumenism. Also, I do not accept your theory of "deepening the Christian experience" by means of attendance/participation in such services. For the past 2000 years many good Catholic writers have written detailed books describing the theology and services/rituals of the various religions. Attendance was always warned against for good reasons.This is NOT about being ecumenical, but about deepening the Christian experience re: our Lord’s Jewish heritage and that of the Church herself. And nothing to do with curiosity. The Hebrew Catholics have every right (rite?) to observe elements of their Jewish heritage and the Vatican has given them permission to do so. Why shouldn’t there be a “Jewish Rite” in the Catholic Church?
Certainly not. You seem to confuse the issue here. The OT is not Jewish and the NT Christian. The New Law fulfills and replaces the Old Law. I have spent a great deal of time studying the Old Testament and reading the commentary of the Fathers and Doctors etc. The Catholic understands more about the Old Law than the Jew who, living today, rejects Christ. This is because we can see the Prophecies fulfilled in Christ and explained by the NT. This has nothing to do with attending a Jewish service.Our Catholic Bibles have the Old Testament - in fact, we have more books in the Old Testament than the Protestants do. Is the Old Testament also something we should just forget about? Alex
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baylee
Guest
Do you have a link to the document?This is for various reasons as outlined by Pope Pius XI.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
I never said that the OT is irrelevant today, it is very much part of the Church and our lives. What I am saying as that Jews only celebrates what is to come, but us Christians we celebrate which has come. they celebrate their freedom from egypt and we celebrate our freedom from the bondage of sin stablished by Christ.It all depends, of course, on the interpretation. The Passover celebrates freedom and release from Egypt in the blood of the lamb which foreshadows the salvation in the Blood of the Divine Lamb of God.
Again, such passover celebrations are conducted by Catholics as Christian services to reflect on our journey to Christ during Lent especially. We repent of our sins and fast and pray while reflecting on the Hebrew Scriptures and their prophecies about the Expected Messiah. I can see the symbolism of Passover as a way to bring this home.
Interestingly enough, in both the Greek and Latin versions of the scriptures, the actual sign that the Children of Israel are asked to make with the blood of the lamb on their doorposts so that the angel of death would pass over them is the . . . Tau or “T” sign. Pope Innocent III had a sermon on this and how the Cross was prefigured already in the Hebrew Scriptures. St Francis heard this sermon and decided to make the Tau his own Cross and that of his Order.
Everything for us Christians is fulfilled in the Light of Christ. The Hebrew Scriptures are meaningful to us precisely because they prophesy the coming of Christ. The fact that He has come and has inaugurated the New Covenant does not make the Old Testament irrelevant. The same is true of the Psalms that contain a number of prophecies concerning the Messiah and which Christians have prayed and prayed throughout the centuries.
The celebration of the Passover meal by Catholics at home or in parish halls can be a way to encounter Christ in his own milieu and would sensitize us to the OT prophecies concerning him and also to the long journey taken by all those who waited on the Messiah, but didn’t get to see Him (unlike John the Baptist, Simeon in the Temple etc.).
Lent is a journey which we as Catholics also take with the Righteous Ones of the Old Covenant who looked to the Messiah. Our journey and hunger has been fulfilled in Christ, but that doesn’t mean we cannot relive it or feel anew the hunger, heightened by fasting and prayer, for deepened union with Christ.
Alex
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baylee
Guest
See, I am still not seeing where the Church teaches/taught that it is a sin to attend a Seder.
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Robert_Burns
Guest
You do realize that Passover coiincides with Holy Week , correct?No sir. I didn’t say anyone denied Christ, only that those Catholics who participate in a Passover at home or at a parish hall could not be said to deny Christ.
At no time would a Christian celebration of the Passover be a “replacement” for the Holy Mass. That is quite laughable sir!
Such a celebration by Christians would simply be a way to relive the Old Testament story of the flight from Egypt and God’s covenant with His People which foreshadowed His covenant through His People with all of humankind in His Son, Our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
I can’t make it any clearer than that sir.
FYI, I developed a legislative bill to make Robert Burns’ Day a holiday in Ontario.
Shalom!
Alex
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Robert_Burns
Guest
St John Chrysostom obviously thought so.See, I am still not seeing where the Church teaches/taught that it is a sin to attend a Seder.
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