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preV2tradcath
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Vatican II was a council of the Church. I share the concerns that the SSPX and similar traditional Catholics have about it.
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Rascalking
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Cool. Thanks for the answer.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
You changed the question! NO, it is most certainly NOT a sin to assume that one path in particular is the ONLY way to Heaven. The Catholic Church teaches that very thing. Christ alone is the singular Redeemer of the world. If anyone is saved, they are saved through Him, by His Passion, Death, and Resurrection, via the Grace mediated to the world through and by His Church. If a Baptist is saved, it isn’t the Baptist Faith that saves him, it’s the Catholic Faith, because it is Christ Who saves him, and Christ and the Catholic Faith are inseperable.
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PJM
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Up until Luthers revolutation it was a FACT!
Today, all salvation flows THROUGH the Catholic Church by virtue of a common Triune Baptism and a common Beleive in the Triune Godhead.
At some point after Luther and Calvin, when other denominations became more common; the understanding had to change to accommidate the new “christian Faiths.”
Heb. 6: 4-8 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, [were Catholic and have received Holy Communion] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,[Confirmed as Catholics] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, [By leaving the Catholic Church for a new faith]** since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.** For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. "
Those holding today that ONLY Catholics can get to heaven are wrong and are in the state of sin!
**Catechism: ** 780 The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men.
**846" How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:/COLOR]
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."
Love and prayers,
Pat**
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damooster
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I’d also like to point out that many people (including Catholics) get upset and even angry when they hear that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. They get defensive because they take it as an elitist stance. In the short year that I’ve been a Catholic, I’ve had family and friends ask questions like “who gave the Catholic Church the power to hoard salvation” and “oh, so you’re better than me now?”
I think we (Catholics) need to use this opportunity to show that 1. Our Lord, Jesus Christ established the Church (not you or I) and 2. we aren’t trying to keep people out of the Church, but rather we are telling everyone that we are the true Church because we want to save as man souls as we can.
It’s easy to shrug stuff off and say “oh, yeah you’re totally getting in to Heaven,” but I believe true love is putting your hand on your family and/or friends’ shoulder and saying “I love you and I want you to know the truth.” That’s the real problem here; many people, when provided this opportunity, go around the truth to prevent hurting someone’s feelings. We should be running to opportunities like this.
Just my :twocents:
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I think we (Catholics) need to use this opportunity to show that 1. Our Lord, Jesus Christ established the Church (not you or I) and 2. we aren’t trying to keep people out of the Church, but rather we are telling everyone that we are the true Church because we want to save as man souls as we can.
It’s easy to shrug stuff off and say “oh, yeah you’re totally getting in to Heaven,” but I believe true love is putting your hand on your family and/or friends’ shoulder and saying “I love you and I want you to know the truth.” That’s the real problem here; many people, when provided this opportunity, go around the truth to prevent hurting someone’s feelings. We should be running to opportunities like this.
Just my :twocents:
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Rascalking
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I believe true love is praying for them. When they ask questions, and they bring it up, then I answer. Just bringing it up all the time would cause you to lose friends.It’s easy to shrug stuff off and say “oh, yeah you’re totally getting in to Heaven,” but I believe true love is putting your hand on your family and/or friends’ shoulder and saying “I love you and I want you to know the truth.” That’s the real problem here; many people, when provided this opportunity, go around the truth to prevent hurting someone’s feelings. We should be running to opportunities like this.
Just my :twocents:
Just my 13 cents.
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pnewton
Guest
Yes.
One can be a Catholic other than by baptism through water, but that’s not the question. One still must be saved through the Catholic Church. Now, if one is ignorant of this need can they still be saved. I am more on the side of God being merciful than some, but others think that God does not extend such mercy to all, or that all have enough knowledge to be Catholic and reject the Church willingly.
In any case, it is not a sin to hold to a stricter interpretation of Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus. There is theological lattitude for some difference of opinion here. Finally, there is the question of conscience. If we look to the new Catechism on this teaching, let us also consider what the CCC tells us about conscience. If one truly believes that most all outside of the Church visible are going to Hell, then that is not a sin. Remember that Fr. Feeney was not just excommunicated for his beliefs, but rather his disobedience. When he was reconcilled, he was** not** required to recant any of his beliefs.
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damooster
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I pick my spots; I’m not in everyone’s face 24/7. But I certainly don’t hesitate when I see a chance.
And yes, prayer is vital. I pray for the conversions of my family and friends every night.
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Tradycja
Guest
What do you mean it is a SIN? It is a DOGMA that non-Catholics cannot be saved:
Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”[Denzinger, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, B. Herder Book. Co., Thirtieth Edition, 1957, 468-469.]
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”[Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, Vol. 1, p. 578; Denzinger 714.]
Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which** no one at all is saved***, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”[Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, Vol. 1, p. 646.]
When the Church dogmatically defines that Jesus is in the Eucharist truly, I believe it. When the Church says that Mary is Immaculately Conceived, you had better bet I believe it 100 percent! When the Church says that no one is saved outside the Church, I believe that it means what it says!
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Tradycja
Guest
By the way notice the LANGUAGE of this dogmatic definition and then look at the definitions above. Notice any similarity???
Code:
We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.
—Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854
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AnneElliot
Guest
:crying:
Oh, how it hurts to read someone claim that facts change… that something true “HAD TO CHANGE” to “accommodate” error!
There is only 1 Christian Faith. Just as there is only 1 Lord, 1 Baptism…
The Church’s teaching/doctrines DOES NOT CHANGE, nor do her “understandings” of them… especially to accommodate error and heresy!
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Tradycja
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Hey that is true AnneElliot…check out this quote from Vatican I
***Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess. 3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870, ex cathedra: ***“Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding.”[Denzinger 1800]
***Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess. 3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870, ex cathedra: ***“Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding.”[Denzinger 1800]
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AlphaOmega
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There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.
That is the dogma of faith. Anyone who does not believe it does not have the Catholic Faith.
Here are some good references:
whoislikeuntogod.com/category/suprema-haec-sacra/
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pnewton
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From Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution):
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it"
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation"
(I thought I would jump in and play the crazy font game too)
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it"
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation"
(I thought I would jump in and play the crazy font game too)
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Tradycja
Guest
I totally agree that they MAY achieve salvation. What Lumen Gentium is silent on is HOW they may achieve it.
Therefore, since Vatican II must be interpret as a continuity with tradition and not a rupture (as the Holy Father has indicated) we must conclude that these people may achieve salvation through water baptism that God would bring to them in a miraculous manner. To interpret this passage in any other manner would contradict defined dogma
since none of us on this forum are sedevacantists we cannot pit Vatican II against defined dogma.
Brother Thomas Sennott wrote a nice essay on this very question of Vatican II and Salvation:
scribd.com/doc/23249763/Vatican-II-and-Extra-Ecclesiam-Nulla-Salus
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numealinesimpet
Guest
That is not so. The Council of Trent states that Baptism is by Water “or the desire thereof”. Pope Pius IX declared that God can save whom He will by what we call “extraordinary” means, and declared that ‘further speculation is unlawful’.
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pnewton
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Something else to consider is that in any “may”, there is also an implied “may not”. That is why the original question is a resounding “no”. The Church has always been hesitant to assign numbers or name to those who are damned and only a relatively small number of those who go to heaven are canonized. Much of this stuff allows a broad range of belief, as long as one stays within the set guidelines.
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karoleck
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The best way I can answer this question is with a “true” story!!
A woman went to confession to a visiting priest,in an open style–that is face to face–she then said --“Oh father I have sinned so often,especially the sin of pride” How does this this occur the priest asked—“well”–she replied -" it occurs everytime I look at my face in a mirrow I see how beautiful I look and I sin" Well,the priest replied–you never sinned ever at all-now that I have seen your face—you are just mistaken that is all–for if you forgive me for saying so; you have such an ugly that that only a mother could love!
(only a visiting priest could be so honest!)
So Catholics who believe this do not sin; but just mistaken!!! However this is only on the surface of this arguement; but that is how the “person on the street” thinks.Hence the jokes about Protestants or Catholics (depending on which side of the fence the teller of it adhers to) because the truth is that EVERY person who is Baptized in the Name of The Father and of The Son and of The Holy Spirit shares in the ONE Faith in Jesus as Lord and Master—and this being The One,Holy,Catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church founded on the Rock of St.Peter. So from this angle-to believe that only Catholics go to Heaven would not be a sin but in fact a meriterious fact based on the Teachings of Our Risen Saviour Jesus Christ!! Well what about Limbo??see other thread started by newts!!
A woman went to confession to a visiting priest,in an open style–that is face to face–she then said --“Oh father I have sinned so often,especially the sin of pride” How does this this occur the priest asked—“well”–she replied -" it occurs everytime I look at my face in a mirrow I see how beautiful I look and I sin" Well,the priest replied–you never sinned ever at all-now that I have seen your face—you are just mistaken that is all–for if you forgive me for saying so; you have such an ugly that that only a mother could love!
(only a visiting priest could be so honest!)So Catholics who believe this do not sin; but just mistaken!!! However this is only on the surface of this arguement; but that is how the “person on the street” thinks.Hence the jokes about Protestants or Catholics (depending on which side of the fence the teller of it adhers to) because the truth is that EVERY person who is Baptized in the Name of The Father and of The Son and of The Holy Spirit shares in the ONE Faith in Jesus as Lord and Master—and this being The One,Holy,Catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church founded on the Rock of St.Peter. So from this angle-to believe that only Catholics go to Heaven would not be a sin but in fact a meriterious fact based on the Teachings of Our Risen Saviour Jesus Christ!! Well what about Limbo??see other thread started by newts!!
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numealinesimpet
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I admit I’ve told a version of that (extremely relevant!) confession story to certain all-too-long-suffering female friends … (“My dear lady! That wasn’t Vanity! it was just … … … a Mistake!”) who incredibly enough remained friends …The best way I can answer this question is with a “true” story!!
A woman went to confession to a visiting priest,in an open style–that is face to face–she then said --“Oh father I have sinned so often,especially the sin of pride” How does this this occur the priest asked—“well”–she replied -" it occurs everytime I look at my face in a mirrow I see how beautiful I look and I sin" Well,the priest replied–you never sinned ever at all-now that I have seen your face—you are just mistaken that is all–for if you forgive me for saying so; you have such an ugly that that only a mother could love!
So Catholics who believe this do not sin; but just mistaken!!! However this is only on the surface of this arguement; but that is how the “person on the street” thinks.Hence the jokes about Protestants or Catholics (depending on which side of the fence the teller of it adhers to) because the truth is that EVERY person who is Baptized in the Name of The Father and of The Son and of The Holy Spirit shares in the ONE Faith in Jesus as Lord and Master—and this being The One,Holy,Catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church founded on the Rock of St.Peter. So from this angle-to believe that only Catholics go to Heaven would not be a sin but in fact a meriterious fact based on the Teachings of Our Risen Saviour Jesus Christ!! Well what about Limbo??see other thread started by newts!!
Just one comment, if I may … yes, you are right; it is Catholic teaching that all who are baptised are baptised as Catholics, nothing else…“there is one faith, one baptism…” (Eph. 4:4) … but those raised in Protestant homes are more than likely to be fed misconceptions, not to mention lies of various kinds, about the Catholic Church. And a general attitude of shuddering revulsion towards Her. It raises the interesting question, doesn’t it…how many of these “Catholics” are rebelling against the True Church, and how many against a mere fantasy A straw figure? I know various people who would be insulted and shocked to be told they are “really” Catholics, but … actually they are!
But that still leaves the issue of “people of goodwill” who were never baptised at all. All I can say to that is that S. Pio of Pietreclina, who is known to have had supernatural illumination on the state of many souls after death, remarked, “There will be surprises”. He also said to some rigorists: “If God’s judgment were as severe as yours, there’d be no hope for any of us”.
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Nightingales
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Why not just believe what is written in John 3:16? One must be born again to receive the Kingdom of Heaven. There is nothing anywhere that ever states that one must belong to the Catholic church.
All it takes to enter Heaven is to believe what our Lord did for us.
All it takes to enter Heaven is to believe what our Lord did for us.
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