Is it a sin to immigrate illegally?

[bankerdavid]

First of all I think this question is horrible. Since when do we vote on Catholic teaching. What is next? Is the Host more the body of Christ when the Priest speaks Latin?

I fail to see how this is a vote on Catholic teaching. Please explain?

Secondly, as Catholics we do not take our political views from the Potomoc but the Tiber. And as Catholics we fail to see that many of these illegal immigrants are our fellow Catholics. We share the body of Christ with them. That bond is more meaningful than a social security number.

We take our moral views from the Tiber, and apply them as they apply to our lawmaking. In other areas, we look to DC.

By the way, I live in a town that is 90% Mexican and the parents come here to work and provide for the children. I work in a school and many times I hear parents say that they come to work the fields so their kids can get an education and get a better life. Hey doesn’t that sound similar to what earlier immigrants said when they arrived.

I cannot speak for everyone, but I, for one, do not begrudge what they’re trying to do to better their family. I do begrudge how they do it.

To hear Catholics turn against immigrants is appalling. How we forget our ancestors who endured racial taunts. And by the way, didn’t the Italians get saddled with the label WOP? I think that means without papers. Hmm.

Not against the immigrants, against their methods. And it was wrong then, and wrong now, to enter the country illegally.

Lastly on a practical note I invite anyone who thinks we should deport all the undocumented to come and work the fields. Wake up at 4 AM to pick cherries. You’ll be cold when you start and hot when you finish. Watch out for snakes and tractors as well. Or you can pay $15 for a half a pound.

This doesn’t fly. There have always been migrant workers that did this particular job, and this I advocate, as long as they can be controlled. They are given papers, and when their visa expires, they have to go back to where they are from (or to their consulate), get a new visa, then proceed back to work. Actually, part of the problem is our country’s inability to enforce the visa program!

The last time I checked our true citzenship is in heaven and think that the Good Lord mentioned something about welcoming the alien. I am not a scripture scholar but when God called Abraham and told him to move did he get a work visa?

I would welcome him, if he came in my front door. Someone coming in my back door earns suspicion, at the very least.

 

[Al_Masetti]

In one sense it is stealing from the people who immigrate legally.

One of my friends immigrated legally from Bangladesh. He had to jump through all kinds of hoops to get here and YEARS of more hoops to bring his wife here.

It used to really burn him that there were so many people who just got off a plane and “disappeared themselves” and got by just fine.

And there he was following the rules. And basically getting “screwed” by our system.

Another way of looking at this … is it a sin to steal food? Only under the most dire circumstances is stealing food not sinful.

Why not work and get the food legally … or work at the system and immigrate legally?

We do have compassionate and emergency ways of providing food and emergency ways of getting people here under conditions of asylum. And they do work.

I will agree that the legal ways of immigration need to be brought up to date and the bureaucracy streamlined, but somewhere around a million people a year immigrate legally now.

We only ask that the compassionate and emergency methods not be abused.

 

[Genesis315]

???

Generally speaking it is a sin, as we are to obey the laws of civil authorities that are not openly repugnant to the law of God or the natural law.

That being said, it is possible for immigration laws to be unjust. There is a Catholic principle called the universal destination of goods. God created the world for all men, and therefore all men have a right to the necessities of life. If one nation were hording things in such a way that people of other nations could not have their basic needs met, and those needs could be met through immigration that violated the civil law of the hording state, then such “illegal” immigration would be justified.

 

[Genesis315]

Pope Bl. John XXIII explains:

1. Again, every human being has the right to freedom of movement and of residence within the confines of his own State. When there are just reasons in favor of it, he must be permitted to emigrate to other countries and take up residence there. (22) The fact that he is a citizen of a particular State does not deprive him of membership in the human family, nor of citizenship in that universal society, the common, world-wide fellowship of men.

(22) Cf. Pius XII’s broadcast message, Christmas 1952, AAS 45 (1953) 36-46.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_xxiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_j-xxiii_enc_11041963_pacem_en.html

 

[Jack_Fisher]

…Secondly, as Catholics we do not take our political views from the Potomoc but the Tiber. …

and what, exactly, does Rome opine about the Immigration and Naturalization Act? I know your opinion, but what is Rome’s?

 

[BB25]

The gentle reader above found the quote concerning the rights of people to move in search of work.

No, I do not want people exploited and yes they are exploited by employers and crooks. Yes I want undocumented workers protected by the laws. And perhaps I was one of the few people who think that the President was right on with his idea.

People may not recall that the big ammensty done years ago, was done by President Reagan. He also said that something along the lines that Hispanics are republicans they just dont know it yet.

Yes there are bad people and gangsters that cross the border. However I think that there is close parrallel to the Italians migration of a 100 years ago. There were complaints about their lack of English, the crooks among them, and they simple grasp of the faith.

Call me simple or obtuse or point that my glasses have a rose coloured tint, but the vast majority are our fellow Catholics who believe and practice the faith. They want to work, educate their kids, open up businesses and partake in the American dream.

 

[bankerdavid]

The gentle reader above found the quote concerning the rights of people to move in search of work.

No, I do not want people exploited and yes they are exploited by employers and crooks. Yes I want undocumented workers protected by the laws. And perhaps I was one of the few people who think that the President was right on with his idea.

People may not recall that the big ammensty done years ago, was done by President Reagan. He also said that something along the lines that Hispanics are republicans they just dont know it yet.

Yes there are bad people and gangsters that cross the border. However I think that there is close parrallel to the Italians migration of a 100 years ago. There were complaints about their lack of English, the crooks among them, and they simple grasp of the faith.

Call me simple or obtuse or point that my glasses have a rose coloured tint, but the vast majority are our fellow Catholics who believe and practice the faith. They want to work, educate their kids, open up businesses and partake in the American dream.

Even though I supported President Reagan, this move was wrong. All it did was open the doors wider, because they knew the govt was soft on this and they could get away with it. I do not care if Mexicans come across the border to live, work, pay taxes, worship and get ahead. That’s what this country is all about. We are also, for the most part, a law-abiding country, and we’d like those who wish to come here to respect the laws. One of the first ways they can show that they respect the law is to show up at the consulate, ask for paperwork, fill it out, wait for the response. Certainly, this will take some time, but it would be the right way.

Look, I married a lady who waited in the Philippines 10 years or so to get a visa to work here. She also has family who didn’t do this the right way. My wife earned $60,000 a year over the last 15 years, now makes 21,000 working 3 days a week. Her relatives don’t do nearly as well because they don’t have documentation. And she believes they should go back to the Philippines, do things the right way, and come back when allowed.

This is not an issue of “It’s our country and they have no right to it.” It’s an issue of entering properly under the laws in place. At that point, they will have a right to use schools, hospitals, to vote, as well as the right to work and pay taxes. The current load of illegals do not have those rights, even though they make use of them.

 

[Sr_Sally]

For as long as I can remember, there has been an American Flag in any Catholic Church in the US. I was taught that it is there to remind us that we honor the country that provides us the freedom to assemble and worship freely. That means to respect the laws of that country whether you like them or not.

I have NEVER seen an American flag (or any country flag for that matter) in any Catholic sanctuary.

That is not to say that we shouldn’t respect the laws of the country–whatever country that is. However, it is also our duty to do what we can to ensure that those laws are fair and just.

 

[Sr_Sally]

So for our economic good, you’re willing to cultivate a class of workers who get paid horrible wages and live in fear?

I have no problem with immigrants, but I want them to come here legally and be protected and want to be a part of this country. What I have no sympathy for is a system which encourages human beings to be mistreated, and in fact, relies on a continuing flow of law breakers for its prosperity.

I agree very strongly with the bolded part. The rela answer is for us to change our very convoluted immigration laws AND to work with gov’ts to our South to help them create a situation in their countries which will make it economically feasiable for people to stay in their home countries.

 

[Jack_Fisher]

I agree very strongly with the bolded part. The rela answer is for us to change our very convoluted immigration laws AND to work with gov’ts to our South to help them create a situation in their countries which will make it economically feasiable for people to stay in their home countries.

change how? what do you want added in to the Immigration and Naturalization Act?

the Mexican regime is totally and irredeemably corrupt. illegal immigration is nothing less than a steam dump valve that lets that corrupt system totter on, since potential dissidents are simply exported before they can become the agents of change. stop all immigration from Mexico and they’ll have their long overdue revoluccion when the pot boils over. only then is real social justice possible.

 

[onef8th]

Call me simple or obtuse or point that my glasses have a rose coloured tint, but the vast majority are our fellow Catholics who believe and practice the faith. They want to work, educate their kids, open up businesses and partake in the American dream.

Note the statement above. "the vast majority are our fellow Catholics who believe and practice their faith. This is my point exactly. They are NOT practicing the Catholic faith if they are breaking the law. In order for them to practice the Sacrament of Reconciliation correctly, they would have to go back to their perspective country and come into the US through the right channels, otherwise they are and remain in sin.

Others are right, this is not so much a “this is my country” matter as it is a moral matter. If you bring the idea up that most or Catholics then the standard just went up one hundred fold and they need to repent and do what is right which means going back to their country and doing things right. God will bless them but how can he if they persist in sin?

Danny Ramirez.

 

[Keikiolu]

???

Do you “feel” it’s a sin when you do it? Just a “sneaking perception” perhaps? Just a little eensie woonsie sminsie bit?

If your doing it for other than abject survival, then it’s a sin.

If you’re doing it for abject survival, then it’s still probably a sin, but one that is “understandable”.

In either case, as with all sins, it is forgivable.

The question is whether you’re prepared and accepting of the pennance that you may have to pay for it?

 

[RobHom]

You totally missed the point. The point was that refugees have a legal way of getting on the fast track to citizenship.

Actually, I didn’t miss the point. My entire point was that immigrants should use the legal machinations available to them. My great-grandparents did, and my wife’s father and his parents did. They all entered legally with the correct procedures.

True, the Elian example was wrong, but the point still remains. Political refugees and the persecuted have a legitimate way of staying in this country. Illegal immigrants should have no status. They should not be allowed to sway legislation or anything else.

I agree with you on all these points.

I disagree with you about Elian, but that’s a totally other thread.

You, along with most of the Cuban population of Dade County probably disagree with me. And yes, its a whole other thread…

 

[sprout]

I couldn’t find ANYTHING in the Catechism that explicitly states it is.

It would be helpful, perhaps, to see how the CCC defines sin:

II. THE DEFINITION OF SIN

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121

In addition, the Catechism very clearly states that oppressing the foreigner and injustice to the wage earner are not only sins, but sins that cry out to God for vengeance:

1867 The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are “sins that cry to heaven”: the blood of Abel,139 the sin of the Sodomites,140 the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt,141 the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan,142 injustice to the wage earner.143

 

[kidderdoc]

Objectively it is a sin; stealing into a country is akin to breaking into someone’s home univited or unannounced…subjectively it may or may not be depending upong the circumstances…

 

[BB25]

The original question was asking whether or not it was a sin to immigrate illegally. In a perfect world, people would migrate legally. But when your kids are hungry and there is better life across the border, ask yourself honestly what course would you choose.

As concerns the Mexican government, I have nothing to say that exonerates them. It is corrupt and fails to provide for its people. It is repressive and is in need of serious repair. Sometimes I think we ought to borrow a page from TR’s play book and send in the Marines and some well grounded political science people and rebuild the thing from the ground up. But I digress.

People want to immigrate legally but the system as it stands is broken. The President is trying to fix it but there is lack of will to solve the problem. Part of the difficulty lies with this backlash associated with illegals. Yes there are bad apples but the majority are good people who want to work.

All of us wish to see the system fixed so people can migrate in peace and participate fully in the life of the country in which they live. All of us wish to see all workers treated with equal dignity and paid a just wage. These sentiments, however, are for another forum.

Sticking to main topic, calling it a sin to migrate without documents is abhorrent. Borrowing a phrase from our seperated brethern, What would you do if you were in their shoes?

 

[sprout]

Objectively it is a sin; stealing into a country is akin to breaking into someone’s home univited or unannounced…subjectively it may or may not be depending upong the circumstances…

good analogy.

the thing is with the undocumented workers we have now it’s not a matter of being “uninvited”. They most certainly have been invited. They have been coming here and working for decades. They have come here, raised families, worked for slave wages, picked our fruits and vegetables, cleaned our homes, painted our houses, done construction, gardening, cleaned latrines, horse paddocks all for cents on the dollar. They have added to our economy at the “invitation” of employers who can’t find people willing to do these jobs while our government looks the other way.

We don’t grant a sufficient number of work permits for the amount of work that is needed. This needs to be reformed.

This is to say nothing of those who have immediate family here and are coming to reunite with their husband, wife, mother, father, child. The wait for “legal” family unification is unacceptable, sometimes 8-10 years.

In addition, through NAFTA and now CAFTA our government has greatly contributed to the loss of jobs in South American countries. Farms have been incorporated, farmers displaced and looking for work in cities. At the same time there were all those International bank loans and reorganization so that the number of jobs dried up for some sectors. Our international policies have directly contributed to the loss of jobs in their countries.

So it’s actually more like if one were to destroy their neighbor’s home while at the same time profiting off of his loss.

Am I not here, Who am your Mother? Are you not under my mantle and protection?

 

[kidderdoc]

good analogy.

the thing is with the undocumented workers we have now it’s not a matter of being “uninvited”. They most certainly have been invited. They have been coming here and working for decades. They have come here, raised families, worked for slave wages, picked our fruits and vegetables, cleaned our homes, painted our houses, done construction, gardening, cleaned latrines, horse paddocks all for cents on the dollar. They have added to our economy at the “invitation” of employers who can’t find people willing to do these jobs while our government looks the other way.

We don’t grant a sufficient number of work permits for the amount of work that is needed. This needs to be reformed.

This is to say nothing of those who have immediate family here and are coming to reunite with their husband, wife, mother, father, child. The wait for “legal” family unification is unacceptable, sometimes 8-10 years.

In addition, through NAFTA and now CAFTA our government has greatly contributed to the loss of jobs in South American countries. Farms have been incorporated, farmers displaced and looking for work in cities. At the same time there were all those International bank loans and reorganization so that the number of jobs dried up for some sectors. Our international policies have directly contributed to the loss of jobs in their countries.

So it’s actually more like if one were to destroy their neighbor’s home while at the same time profiting off of his loss.

Am I not here, Who am your Mother? Are you not under my mantle and protection?

Oh please! you forgot the rapists, murderers and drug dealers on our streets and in our jails that came for a “better life”! When you come into MY home, come thru the front door so I know who you are and what you want, don’t crawl thru my window and then claim you own the contents of my home…if their governments were not so corrupt, they would not be coming here…but it is still a sin, and if someone has invited them unlawfully, then they are sinning as well! I propose we tax only liberals to support illegal immigrants…let them pay their bills! :clapping: There are plenty of ways one can propose a temporary work permit without draining our future.

 

[Arwen037]

How can someone say they want to belong to a certain country, and then make their first act breaking that country’s laws? It is wrong to break just laws. America does not say you can’t immigrate, it says you have to wait your turn. In a way illegal immigrants are stealing. They are stealing the chance for legal immigration from those going through the proper processes. The US cannot take in everyone from the entire world. The illegal immigrants also steal because they often do not pay their taxes, yet expect welfare programs to cover them. They receive health care courtesy of the government, and our pocketbooks, without giving anything back. And when they do make it across, that just encourages more to come over.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Would it be sinful for U.S. citizens to immigrate illegally to … say … Mexico … and then demand that the government give them welfare benefits AND change Mexican laws to accommodate their needs and wants? Should the government of Mexico adopt English as a second official language to accommodate illegal U.S. immigrants?