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urban-hermit
Guest
???
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NewUlm1976_2000
Guest
There may be lots of underlining reasons (e.g. take care of family across border, etc…) where this is often the last resort where it would not be a sin as it is often the worst case scenario back home before they would leave (e.g. starvation, etc…).
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lizaanne
Guest
YES. It is illegal and it is a sin. If that were not the case, DH and I would have saved thousands of dollars, time and worry and frustration, and just had him come here illegally from England. We were even offered a way by an immigration attorney to “get around the system” by doing just that and “fixing” things once he got here. I was completely disgusted at the mere suggesting.
Yes - it is absolutely illegal. If we can do it the right way, so can others.
In the instance of persecution or other evils, there are ways to seek assylum LEGALLY. No excuses.
~Liza
Yes - it is absolutely illegal. If we can do it the right way, so can others.
In the instance of persecution or other evils, there are ways to seek assylum LEGALLY. No excuses.
~Liza
J
Jimbo2
Guest
IIRC, it is a sin to break any just law without absolute neccessity.
And, it’s not really up to us lay-people to decide if a law is un-just, unless it clearly violates Catholic teaching. It is certainly just for a country to wish to protect itself and control its borders.
And, it’s not really up to us lay-people to decide if a law is un-just, unless it clearly violates Catholic teaching. It is certainly just for a country to wish to protect itself and control its borders.
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Cristiano
Guest
Breaking a law is usually sinful, but it doesn’t make it automatically a sin. As usual things depend a lot on the intent and surrounding conditions.
From my point of view most of the illegal immigration that we observe now in the USA is probably sinful, but things related to moral theology are not always simple.
This is the reason why we need a well formed conscience, we cannot expect the Church (Bishops) to give us black and white directions for every scenario. That would go against using the gift of intelligence that we have been given.
From my point of view most of the illegal immigration that we observe now in the USA is probably sinful, but things related to moral theology are not always simple.
This is the reason why we need a well formed conscience, we cannot expect the Church (Bishops) to give us black and white directions for every scenario. That would go against using the gift of intelligence that we have been given.
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Jimbo2
Guest
I dunno, this issue seems pretty simple. We know that illegal immigration is breaking a just law, so in order for a confessor to know how to deal with a person confessing this act, I presume he would simply ask the penitent if it was a matter of gravity and neccessity.
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Brendan
Guest
Exactly.
I Imagine that their might be mitigating factors, which would reduce the culpability, but it would be a sinful action.
Then again, so are rolling stops at stop signs.
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Cristiano
Guest
I do not believe it to be an intrinsically just law. It is a man made law and has to be obeyed, but that does not make it a just law only because of its existence.
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melensdad
Guest
Ahh but in addition to that, are we not also supposed to take into account the situation of the person who is seeking refuge from THEIR LEGAL SYSTEM by coming into our nation?
Simply put, if someone from another nation sneaks across our border to escape from some sort of tyranny, are we not supposed to welcome them? I believe we are supposed to do that, and yet they are clearly breaking not only the laws of their land, but also the laws of our land. On the other hand, do we have to accept just anyone who crosses our border and makes a claim? No. Not legally. Not even morally. So there is a situational justice and morality that the church would have us consider.
The answer to the question, it seems, is IT DEPENDS
C
Corki
Guest
Our duty to welcome and aid someone does not mean that their act was not sinful. If someone comes across the border (or stays) illegally, they commit a wrong act. Our subsequent actions do not mitigate the sinfulness of the act. What MIGHT mitigate the culpability are other factors such as tyranny or hunger or need to aid a family member but those are for the priest to judge in confession and should not be part of “situational” ethics on our part.Ahh but in addition to that, are we not also supposed to take into account the situation of the person who is seeking refuge from THEIR LEGAL SYSTEM by coming into our nation?
Simply put, if someone from another nation sneaks across our border to escape from some sort of tyranny, are we not supposed to welcome them? I believe we are supposed to do that, and yet they are clearly breaking not only the laws of their land, but also the laws of our land. On the other hand, do we have to accept just anyone who crosses our border and makes a claim? No. Not legally. Not even morally. So there is a situational justice and morality that the church would have us consider.
The answer to the question, it seems, is IT DEPENDS
The answer is not “it depends”.
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melensdad
Guest
Well I guess you and I will disagree. Because while I totally agree that our actions do not mitigate their actions, what I will disagree with you on is if the church would always presume their action was actually sinful.
Again, it is my understanding based on the writings of our Bishop,* (and I may not understand them completely) *there are some immigrants who may be here illegally but not it does not mean they committed sins when they violated their unjust laws and came here to escape their oppression. Again this does not apply to all illegals, it only would apply to some.
Therefore, IT DEPENDS would be a reasonable answer. It depends on the situation in the nation they escaped from.
For example, if someone is here from Darfur, Sudan and they know they will be killed if they go back because they are from a caste or tribe that is being persecuted by the government killing squads then it is not necessarily a sin to stay, but it is illegal to do so.
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Cristiano
Guest
Can you please say where it says that it is “always” wrong thus automatically sinful not to obey a law if the law is not “intrinsically” just.
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mapleoak
Guest
Of course it may be breaking a just law depending on what country we are talking about, however one has to consider the country of origin that one is deserting. Under a tyrannical government, which is strewn with unjust laws, the culpability in ones ‘escape’ may very well be diminished. Certainly if one needs to escape to preserve his life or his family’s, or even because such country forbids the practice of his religion, it can be justified. I am sure many would be more than glad to risk winding up in prison to escape from tyranny. To say they have sinned by doing so may not be certain.
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Proletarian
Guest
It depends on the circumstances. Migration through unconventional means is not a sin if the person immigrating is a genuine refugee i.e. a person who “owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of their nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such a fear, is unwilling to, avail themselves of the protection of that country…” (The 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees).
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Corki
Guest
Where would be the Catechism.
You don’t get a “pass” from sin just because you don’t agree with the law. When the CCC speaks of an unjust law, it talks about a law that requires you to do something unjust. For example, if you were a doctor who lived in a state where it was required by law that you offer abortion services, it would not be a sin to break that law. A law that says that, in order to enter this country, you have to follow certain steps, cannot be called unjust in the same way.
“Wrong” is not automatically sinful and certainly not always mortally so.
For example, lying is wrong, it may or may not be sinful given the situation and may or may not be a mortal sin given the gravity of the lie.
What I said, was that to break a law is wrong; the sinfulness of the act is for a confessor to determine.
In this example, you would need to show that the US (or whatever country they have decided to stay in) is the only place the person could come and be safe AND that the person tried to obtain the legal and available status of refugee or asylee first before taking the illegal route.
Many, many people come here illegally because they either don’t want to spend the money or take the time to follow the legal steps to immigrate. Again, I leave it to the confessors, but to act thus is most likely sinful.
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Ender
Guest
The quote you provided pertains to fear of persecution. Since the overwhelming majority of illegals didn’t come to this country to escape persecution let’s address their situation: were their actions sinful? They clearly have no legal right to violate our laws and I have seen no rational claim that our laws are immoral … therefore how could the violation of those laws not be immoral?
I’m not holding my breath waiting for the bishops to speak out on the morality of illegal immigration but it would be nice if they would address the issue from this perspective.
Ender
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yessisan
Guest
If the migration is an absolute necessity in order to survive, well, how can that be sinful?
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Ender
Guest
For the overwhelming majority of illegals survival is not an issue, so let’s discuss the morality of those coming here for economic reasons.
Ender
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yessisan
Guest
The OP didn’t say anything about having it to be just for economic reasons, so I guess I am entitled as much as you are to respond the way I desire and seem fit. The OP only asked
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Ender
Guest
OK, let’s accept that it is not a sin to immigrate illegally in life threatening situations. Do you consider it a sin to immigrate illegally for economic reasons?
Ender
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