Is it a sin to make fun of Islam?

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Hermione:
I don’t think men are evil, or that all Muslims are evil. But sometimes when I read about things like “4 male witnesses needed to testify that a rape occured,” or about “honor killings,” or the number of rapes that happen in our society (I have a 20% chance of being raped!!!) I’ll get really upset and say things like that.

)
I think that righteous anger can be very healthy. You are right to be P.Oed by the rape of innocent women. Just make certain that your anger doesn’t include all muslims or men. That would be an unfair generalization.Saying that, sometimes jokes are our way of dealing with a very emotional situation. So, joking might have actually allowed you to calm down and rethink your position.

ON an interesting note, I would also like to point out that there was a study of Palastenian honor killings done by Ilsa Glaser. She discovered that the gossip of the victim’s family and neighborhood females contributed to the victim’s death. Sad but true.
 
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tuopaolo:
It is simple. Islam is a false religion. Falsehood does not deserve respect. Therefore Islam should not be respected.

In the quotes you provided the Pope speaks of respecting “each other” – I agree completely; we should respect each other, we should respect Muslims as fellow human beings. Nothing in the quotes you provided shows the Pope saying that we should respect Islam.

It seems that you deny that Islam is a false religion. Islam and Catholicism can’t both be true religions. That’s relativism. And the Pope was no relativist. To say that Islam is a true religion is to repudiate the Catholic faith.
Okay… perhaps you misunderstand me. I believe you may also misunderstand the teaching of the Church. Respect for Islam and belief in ours as the one true faith are *not *mutually exclusive, as you seem to be suggesting. How about a quote by Mother Theresa, which I found on the EWTN website:

There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic (Italics mine). We believe our work should be our example to people. We have among us 475 souls - 30 families are Catholics and the rest are all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs—all different religions. But they all come to our prayers.

There are so many religions and each one has its different ways of following God. I follow Christ:
Jesus is my God,
Jesus is my Spouse,
Jesus is my Life,
Jesus is my only Love,
Jesus is my All in All;
Jesus is my Everything.


And from the CCC:

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near… Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.

The missionary task implies a respectful dialogue with those who do not yet accept the Gospel. Believers can profit from this dialogue by learning to appreciate better "those elements of truth and grace which are found among peoples, and which are, as it were, a secret presence of God.


Yes, to evangelize is both our obligation and our sacred right. But part of evangelization of Muslims, according to the CCC, requires that we recognize and show respect for the measure of truth and goodness that God has granted Islam.
 
** *I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic. ***
I don’t know… What if a religion preaches violence? Honor killings? The killing of “infidels”? Wife-beating? Polygamy? Stoning people to death for sins?

Do we really want them to become better at those things?
 
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Hermione:
I don’t know… What if a religion preaches violence? Honor killings? The killing of “infidels”? Wife-beating? Polygamy? Stoning people to death for sins?

Do we really want them to become better at those things?
Somehow I doubt that is what Mother Theresa meant by becoming a “better Muslim”… just as by becoming a “better Catholic” she would not have meant becoming so wound up in being the one true faith that we can’t see the work of God anywhere else or in anyone else, hmmm?

Catholics have killed “infidels” and made converts at the point of the sword. We have allowed the “rule of thumb”… which permitted beating one’s wife, as long as the switch was smaller than one’s thumb. Some of us have preached violence in the name of Christ. I don’t think I need to go on. Having the truth, even a small part of it, does not mean that one lives it. Many people use their faith as an excuse to oppress others, and we Catholics have not been the exception to the rule. Indeed, having had the one truth faith, we have been more culpable than others. We ought to be begging mercy for them, not just accusing them of their sins.

It doesn’t do us any good to dwell so much on the worst in others that we forget the best in them or the worst in ourselves. That is not the way to let our light shine before the nations.
 
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BLB_Oregon:
Okay… perhaps you misunderstand me.
Maybe you could help me understand by answering this question: Is Islam a false religion?
How about a quote by Mother Theresa, which I found on the EWTN website
I don’t think this is from any writing of hers and in any case what she says needs to be taken in context. There was one occasion when she said something which was interpreted to be approving of divorce and there was a controversy but she then clarified herself and said that she, like the Church, is against divorce. This may be another occasion when she may have mispoken or been misinterpreted by people like you 🙂
And from the CCC:
You’re trying to see things that aren’t there. The CCC doesn’t say to respect Islam. It calls us to be respectful towards other persons – something that I’m all for as I’ve already stated a few times in this thread. Respecting a person’s false religion is opposed to respecting that person, so if anything what you quoted from the CCC supports what I’ve been saying: respect the infidel as a person but not his infidelity. Same thing for other things like homosexuality. respect the homosexual as a person but not his homosexuality. It is contrary to truth and charity to respect falsehood.
 
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nike248:
I hope you don’t take this attitude with Muslims. This is no way to help them. While I’ll agree with you that Islam is a false religion, we should respect it out of respect for our Muslim brothers and in order to bring them into the fold(As hard as that may be).
I’m glad to see that you recognize that Islam is a false religion 🙂

Let me ask you this question: Is it right to respect something that is false?

Let me repeat again that I am all for respecting Muslims as persons. But respecting that which is not true is a sin against truth and charity.
 
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tuopaolo:
You’re trying to see things that aren’t there. The CCC doesn’t say to respect Islam. It calls us to be respectful towards other persons – something that I’m all for as I’ve already stated a few times in this thread. Respecting a person’s false religion is opposed to respecting that person, so if anything what you quoted from the CCC supports what I’ve been saying: respect the infidel as a person but not his infidelity. Same thing for other things like homosexuality. respect the homosexual as a person but not his homosexuality. It is contrary to truth and charity to respect falsehood.
The CCC says quite clearly that there are elements of truth and goodness in other religions, and that we would do well on our mission of evangelization if we appreciate them. Islam is not the one true faith, but neither is it entirely false. She carries elements of truth and goodness which are the gifts of God, which the CCC calls"as it were, a secret presence of God." These deserve our respect. Islam calls believers to the worship of the God of Abraham, the one true God, the all-merciful God, the God who deserves the service of our whole mind, our whole heart, and our whole soul. What some Muslims do with that much truth puts many Catholics to shame. So while Islam merits our loving evangelization, she does not deserve our scorn.
 
Consider this:
Muhammad lived a less than holy life. His lust for sex, his affairs with his maids and slave girls, his pedophilic relationship at age 53 with Aisha, a 9-year-old child, his killing sprees, his massacre and the genocide of the Jews, his slave making and trading, his assassination of his opponents, his raids and lootings of the merchant caravans, his burning of the palm plantations, his destroying the water wells, his cursing and invoking evil on his enemies, his revenge on his captured prisoners of war and his hallucinations about having sex with his wives when he actually did not, disqualify him as a sane person let alone a messenger of God

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), slay them (9:5), fight with them (8:65 ), strive against them with great endeavor (25:52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (66:9), to strike off their heads; then after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” for ransom (Q;47:4).
faithfreedom.org/Articles/sinaprologue.htm
As for the women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and if found disobedient their husbands have the right to beat them (Q;4:34). But their punishment for disobeying their husbands does not end there, because after they die they will go to hell (Q;66:10). The Quran emphasizes the superiority of men by confirming that men have an advantage over the women (Q;2:228). It not only denies women’s equal right to their inheritance (Q;4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their testimony is not admissible in the court of law unless it is accompanied with the testimony of a man (Q;2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Muhammad allowed the Muslim men to marry up to four wives (although he himself had a score of them) and gave them license to enjoy their “right-hand possessions” (women captured in wars), as many as they can capture or afford to buy (Q;4:3), even if the woman is married before being captured (Q;4:24).
faithfreedom.org/Articles/sinaprologue2.htm
All of those reference the Quran, which as far as I know is the LITERAL WORD OF GOD for Muslims.

But why bother with proofs, just look at Islamic societies. Look at what the Taliban did (they were just enforcing Islamic law). Look at what the Iranians do (remember that girl who got 100 lashes for accusing 2 men of raping because she couldn’t produce male witnesses or whatever
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4295111.stm). Look at Saudi Arabia etc. etc.

Some interesting things about honor killings womensissues.about.com/cs/honorkillings/a/honorkillings.htm

Catholics may do evil, but Catholicism does not teach it.
 
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BLB_Oregon:
Islam is not the one true faith, but neither is it entirely false.
I see three logical possibilites:
  1. Islam is true
  2. Islam is false
  3. Islam is neither true nor false
Are you saying that Islam is neither a true religion nor a false religion? But that can’t be because things are either true or false. There’s no in-between. Be that as it may, we can examine the question this way with just two logical possibilities:

A. Islam is true
B. Islam is not true.

Do you agree that Islam is not true? I hope so! Because if you say that Islam is true then you’d be saying that Jesus is not the Christ and Son of the living God. 🙂
 
This illustrates how sick this all is:
Instead of eloping, they decided to speak to my father. “Pregnancy is a very good reason to get permission for marriage”, or so they thought.

Alas, my sister had miscalculated my father’s love for her and his obsession with his religion. He became furious. Instead of letting the two young lovers marry and build their nest of love, he took her to the religious elders and they ruled that she had committed adultery. She was sentenced to death by stoning. They showed no mercy even for her unborn child. She had stained the “honour” of the family and the only way to remove that stain was to nip her life in the bud. Her unborn baby was a stain too and that little creature had to be destroyed as well, so my family could live honorably.
 
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tuopaolo:
Are you saying that Islam is neither a true religion nor a false religion? But that can’t be because things are either true or false. There’s no in-between.
No in-between? The CCC says otherwise. It says that although we have the fullness of the truth, there are other religions that have at least some of it, and we would do well to appreciate that fact if we hope to evangelize them.

All but the most simplistic scholarship says otherwise, too. I’m a scientist… there are some wrong answers that are simply much closer to the truth than others. Some wrong answers are on the path to the right answers, and some wrong answers are going to put you 1,000 miles away with no coming back. Islam is at least on the path to the right answer.

Are you saying that Islam’s contention that the God of Abraham is the one, true God is a false one? Of course not. They have some of it right. You have to appreciate that to build on it.

If we are lost unless we fully appreciate the totality of the truth, then we’re sunk. We may have it all intellectually, but when it comes to the actions that count, the true belief, we all fall short. If you would have mercy, be willing to give a little bit out.
 
i think the sin is vanity if you are calling your faith better. i do not follow islam. but do you think it wrong of me to blame you or insault your faith for the **crusades. when you spread across the land in the name of god and killed thousands of people because they belive in somthing differnt. or i should hate catholics for the malestation of young children by catholics priests. no i should not . was it your fault No of cause not.

should i blame islam for 9/11. no just because somthing is done n the name of god does not make it right. yes a very dark day. but as dark as the day they droped the A bomb and killed thousands.

People in Glass houses should not throw stones. you may class you faith as grand but im sorry to say its less then perfect. and if the cotholic faith does not change you wont have meny members left in 20 years time.

and have you ever read the koran ?
**
 
Honestly, regardless of what so-and-so did and what whosit believes, what good does it do to make fun of someone else’s dearly held beliefs? How does it glorify God to cut down a fellow human being in such a disrespectful manner? Certainly as Catholics we disagree with Muslims on many things, but that does not mean that we are permitted to poke fun at them. All that does is make us look mean and hurtful and insensitive and actually pushes back any chance for respectful dialogue and possible conversion. I know I have no inclination to speak to or even hear what is said by people who make fun of my Catholic faith, so why would Muslims react any differently?

Our Pope gave a good example for us to follow. He was able to respect Muslims for their human dignity and strong faith in God, even while disagreeing with much of what Islam actually taught. If we could all respect each other in such a manner, there wouldn’t be any more war, or hatred, or bigotry on this planet.

BTW Hermione, the site that you keep referencing is an attempt to turn people away from ALL religion, not just Islam. It is an atheistic, anti-religion site, and is very insulting, condescending, and self-righteous. Look at a few of his answers to FAQs on the site (here’s your word of warning that you cannot believe everything on the internet- a few bucks and some HTML knowledge will get ANYONE their own website):

faithfreedom.org/faq/4.htm
faithfreedom.org/faq/5.htm
faithfreedom.org/faq/12.htm
faithfreedom.org/faq/13.htm
faithfreedom.org/faq/17.htm
faithfreedom.org/faq/46.htm
faithfreedom.org/faq/49.htm (this one’s particularly insulting)
faithfreedom.org/faq/58.htm
 
I don’t want to cut anyone down in a disrespectful manner.

At the same time, this is a religion that destroys people’s lives in a very real way. You should read the testimonials of ex-Muslims who escaped Islam! faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm

I think that above all we should fight for God-given human rights, not tolerate something that takes away these rights and degrades human beings.

All these are quotes from the Quran:
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). 9:123
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 9:005
O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey’s end. 66.009
Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. 47:004
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. 4:034
Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise. 2:228
And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course. 4:003
And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah’s ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise. 4:024
This is the main source for all the quotes: usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

And I got there from links from this website: faithfreedom.org/Articles/sinaprologue.htm

But what about human experience of Islam?
I still remember her black eyes; she stared at the sky while she was dug into the ground. She was wrapped in white sheets and her hands were tide to her body. She was buried up to her waist. The rabid mob circled her with stones in their hands and started throwing them at her while the roars of Allah-u-Akbar Allah-u-Akbar added to their frenzy. She twitched with pain as the stones hit her tender body and smashed her head. Blood gushed out from her face, cheeks, mouth, nose and eyes. All she could do was to bend to the left and to the right. Gradually the movements slowed down and finally she stopped moving even though the shower of the stones did not stop. Her head fell on her chest. Her bloodied face remained serene. All the pain had gone. The hysteric mob relented and the chant of Allah-u’Akbar stopped. faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/Yagmur50313.htm
 
Read the quote below again, Hermione. A credit card and access to a web browser gets anyone who wants one a convincing website on which to air their opinions.

Knowing the agenda behind the website which you keep referencing makes me extremely reluctant to trust any of its content. Heck, I’m sure if I looked hard enough I could find a site with quotes from ex-Catholics saying how evil the Church is, and I’m sure it would be professionally done and look very credible.

As for the Quran quotes, read the Old Testament. It’s plenty bloody and violent. I’m sure detractors of Christianity and Judaism glean plenty of quotes to fuel their arguments just like the ones you have posted below. And that quote about obedient women? I take it you’ve never participated in a debate on the “women, be submissive to your husbands” portion of St. Paul’s letter to the Ephesians.

I agree that we should always strive to fight against human rights violations. But I fail to see how poking fun at millions of good people worldwide for the sake of a relative handful of evil ones is 1)productive, 2) fair, or 3) Christian. Have you ever met a Muslim? I have. I live in a city where 1/3 of the population is Muslim. The vast, vast majority of them are God-fearing, family-loving, productive American citizens or legal residents. I do not doubt that things are different in Iran (which as far as I can tell is where the web author is from). But to call all Muslims bad is like saying that all Catholics want birth control and women priests just because Sr. Joan Chittister was on CNN venting her spleen on those issues. There’s a difference between fact and emotional bias, and it’s a very important one.
BTW Hermione, the site that you keep referencing is an attempt to turn people away from ALL religion, not just Islam. It is an atheistic, anti-religion site, and is very insulting, condescending, and self-righteous. Look at a few of his answers to FAQs on the site (here’s your word of warning that you cannot believe everything on the internet- a few bucks and some HTML knowledge will get ANYONE their own website):
 
If you don’t trust that website, what do you think about these?

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4295111.stm
apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm
womensissues.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.cnn.com%2FWORLD%2F9512%2Fhonor_killings%2F

If you don’t trust that man, why not look at the way people live in Islamic states. You live in a city with a large Muslim population in AMERICA. America is not an Islamic country. However, if you are interested to read stories of Muslims living in western countries…

service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,344374,00.html
…divorced the Turkish cousin she was forced to marry at age 16. She also discarded her Islamic head scarf, enrolled in a technical school where she was training to become an electrician and began dating German men. For her family, such behavior represented the ultimate shame – the embrace of “corrupt” Western ways. Days after the crime, police arrested her three brothers, ages 25, 24 and 18. The youngest of the three allegedly bragged to his girlfriend about the Feb. 7 killing.
csmonitor.com/2003/0630/p09s01-coop.html?entryBottomStory
…Add to this the facts that they are often married off at extremely young ages (many in their early teens, for example) and that their imported husbands tend to be untouched by any notion of sexual equality, and one can begin to grasp why Ms. Storhaug calls them “living visas in a new form of human commerce.” They have grown up in Norway and had a taste of freedom, but they are forced into marriages with men who take for granted a wife’s total subservience.
As for Paul’s letter to the Ephesians… do you mean this one?
Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh” (Ephesians 5:21-31).”
Christian spouses are called to submit to one another. Men are called to give themselves up for their wives as Christ gave Himself up for the Church. Men are called to LOVE their wives as Christ loves us, as they love themselves.

I was not poking fun at “millions of good people worldwide” I was upset by and made bad jokes about a religion that destroys human lives.

Just look at the way people, especially women, live in Islamic countries.
 
And as for what is written in the Hadith, the inspired sayings of Muhammed:
Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, “Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?” The women said, “Yes.” He said, “This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.”
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 464:
Narrated 'Imran bin Husain: The Prophet said, “I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women.”
Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 692, Ibn Ma`sud reported from the Messenger of Allah who said, "A woman is like a private part (sex organ). When she goes out (walking) the devil casts a glance at her (in lust). Attested by Tirmizi.
The question of beating wives, is it wrong or right, is settled by Muhammed in Fazlul Maulana-- Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 215, Omar reported from the Holy Prophet who said, “No man shall be questioned for beating his wife.” In the very next Hadith a woman complained to Muhammed that her husband beat her while she prayed. Muhammed told her to change her time of prayer or pray shorter prayers so that her husband could get on with the joy of beating her. (Reported by Abu Sayeed al-Kodri, Attest by Abu Daud)
Source: balaams-***.com/alhaj/women2.htm

(It says “a s s” without spaces instead of the stars, I guess the profanity filter blocked it out.)
 
And let’s not forget the 72 virgins in paradise…
as the Encyclopaedia of Islam says, even orthodox Muslim theologians such as al Ghazali (died 1111 CE) and Al-Ash’ari (died 935 CE) have “admitted sensual pleasures into paradise”. The sensual pleasures are graphically elaborated by Al-Suyuti (died 1505 ), Koranic commentator and polymath. He wrote: “Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas.”
shall quote the celebrated Penguin translation by NJ Dawood of sura 56 verses 12- 39: “They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds… We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand…”
It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified: in a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 CE [common era*]) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah [Prophet Muhammad], chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687). The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: “The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: **‘The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, **over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana’a [Yemen]’.”
Source: guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,631357,00.html

I wonder what female suicide bombers get…
 
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