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TrueLight
Guest
[Here it is](
Now that I look at it again, it is not as bad as I remember, but it’s not a glowing endorsement, either.
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Now that I look at it again, it is not as bad as I remember, but it’s not a glowing endorsement, either.
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A_Catholic
Guest
The Cardinal definitely favors the Novus Ordo Mass over the Tridentine Mass, but as you say, he is not exactly condemning the Tridentine Mass, either. I would have to disagree with him that the only reason people go to the TLM over the NO is because of the abuses in the NO. But that’s for another thread.
However, getting back to the subject at hand, whether we agree or don’t agree with the Cardinal regarding which form of Mass is preferrable, that has nothing to do with his video regarding attending Protestant services. There he is not merely giving an opinion but talking about whether something is spiritually harmful. And he leaves no doubt about that. A Catholic attending protestant worship services on a regular basis is putting him or herself in a dangerous position, and as Fr. Serpa (linked in my prior post) wrote, there is no reason to be attending heretical (his word) services.,
At the Catholic Mass, the angels and saints and our Blessed Mother are all present, because that is where the Blessed Sacrament is. They most certainly would not be present at a Protestant service because Protestants do not invoke them in any way. Protestants completely reject veneration to Mary, the angels and saints. And of course, the Blessed Sacrament, our Lord Himself, is not present in body, blood, soul and divinity as he is at a Catholic Mass.
The Catholic Mass is the re-presentation of our Lord’s Sacrifice on Calvary, the Sacrifice that is the salvation of the world, both physically and spiritually. This cannot be found anywhere else on earth. Why do you want to go to a poor facsimile of that, so empty and cold compared to the great Sacrifice of the Mass?
I personally prefer and thank God that I can be where the real action is.
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Well said, Edwin. Even as a Catholic, let me just reiterate how consistently impressed I am by your posts - by their specificity, charity, and intellectual precision and honesty. I really honestly consider you, JReducation, and Marduk to be my all-time favorite posters on these forums.
There is ambiguity on the matter; you’re certainly right. I think it’s good that there’s ambiguity, though, since this is a matter for prudential judgment.
I personally think you’re fine in singing with Protestants occasionally, TrueLight - especially since you came from that environment.
The principle that we shouldn’t imply with our actions that Protestant services are equal to the Holy Mass is a good one, but the way some too-stringent Catholics apply it is a little ridiculous: occasional attendance and participation really doesn’t convey that message.
I think we should all listen to Edwin and thereby realize that Catholics often mistakenly send a message that’s equally bad - namely, that Protestants are not Christians. As he put it, that’s at least as disastrous and scandalous a misconception.
Henry VIII couldn’t have done it alone. There were enough people of power with Protestant tendencies in England - like Thomas Cranmer - to make it work; otherwise, he couldn’t have gotten away with it. So it actually is a little more complex than the Henry VIII card is willing to convey. I’m not saying the origins of the Church of England aren’t embarrassing, but nonetheless it wasn’t all about Henry’s divorce. That was just the event that let it happen.
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A_Catholic
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Your opinion would seem to conflict with that of Fr. Serpa, as I posted earlier:I personally think you’re fine in singing with Protestants occasionally, TrueLight - especially since you came from that environment.
The principle that we shouldn’t imply with our actions that Protestant services are equal to the Holy Mass is a good one, but the way some too-stringent Catholics apply it is a little ridiculous: occasional attendance and participation really doesn’t convey that message.
I think we should all listen to Edwin and thereby realize that Catholics often mistakenly send a message that’s equally bad - namely, that Protestants are not Christians. As he put it, that’s at least as disastrous and scandalous a misconception.
To participate in a heretical worship service and especially a communion service can be sinful for a Catholic because such an act is an affirmation of what we believe to be untrue.
I guess Fr. Serpa and Cardinal Arinze are both “a little ridiculous”?
Actually, Henry VIII’s divorce was the origin of the Church of England. King Henry VIII had no problems theologically with the Catholic Church, he even had a great devotion to Mary, unlike the Protestants. He broke from the Pope because the Pope would not annul his marriage. No other reason. And no, he didn’t do it alone. All Catholic bishops, with one exception, went along with him.
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liturgyluver
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So how would you describe the Pope’s actions in attending Anglican Evensong, and The Archbishop of England and Wales attending a Anglican Sung Eucharist then?
And then please set out where in the Church’s teachings or offical documents it says it is forbidden to pray with protestants. Since when did we decide that tv clips from Youtube had any sort of authority- and even if they did the words that Fr Serpa uses are hardly decisive.
Nobody here is advocating attending a protestant service on a regular basis: but some people (me included) have mixed-denominational parantage which means that we will from time to time attend events outside the Catholic church. Also there are many many ecumenical events where Christian communities come together ,for example Catholics attending Anglican Advent carol services next week, and choral services where communities worshoip together - Westminster Abbey and Westminster Cathedral do it at least twice a year.
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A_Catholic
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liturgyluver
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Common Declaration of the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams and Pope Benedict XVI
The Vatican, 23 November 2007
Forty years ago, our predecessors, Pope Paul VI and Archbishop Michael Ramsey, met together in this city sanctified by the ministry and the blood of the Apostles Peter and Paul. They began a new journey of reconciliation based on the Gospels and the ancient common traditions. Centuries of estrangement between Anglicans and Catholics were replaced by a new desire for partnership and co-operation, as the real but incomplete communion we share was rediscovered and affirmed. Pope Paul VI and Archbishop Ramsey undertook at that time to establish a dialogue in which matters which had been divisive in the past might be addressed from a fresh perspective with truth and love.
Since that meeting, the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion have entered into a process of fruitful dialogue, which has been marked by the discovery of significant elements of shared faith and a desire to give expression, through joint prayer, witness and service, to that which we hold in common. Over thirty-five years, the Anglican - Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC) has produced a number of important documents which seek to articulate the faith we share. In the ten years since the most recent Common Declaration was signed by the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury, the second phase of ARCIC has completed its mandate, with the publication of the documents The Gift of Authority (1999) and Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ (2005). We are grateful to the theologians who have prayed and worked together in the preparation of these texts, which await further study and reflection.
The Vatican, 23 November 2007
Forty years ago, our predecessors, Pope Paul VI and Archbishop Michael Ramsey, met together in this city sanctified by the ministry and the blood of the Apostles Peter and Paul. They began a new journey of reconciliation based on the Gospels and the ancient common traditions. Centuries of estrangement between Anglicans and Catholics were replaced by a new desire for partnership and co-operation, as the real but incomplete communion we share was rediscovered and affirmed. Pope Paul VI and Archbishop Ramsey undertook at that time to establish a dialogue in which matters which had been divisive in the past might be addressed from a fresh perspective with truth and love.
Since that meeting, the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion have entered into a process of fruitful dialogue, which has been marked by the discovery of significant elements of shared faith and a desire to give expression, through joint prayer, witness and service, to that which we hold in common. Over thirty-five years, the Anglican - Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC) has produced a number of important documents which seek to articulate the faith we share. In the ten years since the most recent Common Declaration was signed by the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury, the second phase of ARCIC has completed its mandate, with the publication of the documents The Gift of Authority (1999) and Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ (2005). We are grateful to the theologians who have prayed and worked together in the preparation of these texts, which await further study and reflection.
True ecumenism goes beyond theological dialogue; it touches our spiritual lives and our common witness. As our dialogue has developed, many Catholics and Anglicans have found in each other a love for Christ which invites us into practical co-operation and service. This fellowship in the service of Christ, experienced by many of our communities around the world, adds a further impetus to our relationship.
This is a quote from the Anglican-Roman Catholic Commission and there are similar documents with he other Protestant denominations. I have highlighted the section in bold which refers to joint prayer. Funnily nothing about hereticism here!!
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liturgyluver
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A_Catholic
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This says absolutely nothing about Catholics attending Protestant services and certainly does not contradict Fr. Serpa or Cardinal Arinze. Entering into dialogue does not constitute common worship services. Certainly we have beliefs in common with the Protestants. The Protestants got those beliefs from the Catholic church. But that does not nullify their heretical beliefs (e.g., rejection of the Eucharist).Common Declaration of the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams and Pope Benedict XVI
The Vatican, 23 November 2007
Forty years ago, our predecessors, Pope Paul VI and Archbishop Michael Ramsey, met together in this city sanctified by the ministry and the blood of the Apostles Peter and Paul. They began a new journey of reconciliation based on the Gospels and the ancient common traditions. Centuries of estrangement between Anglicans and Catholics were replaced by a new desire for partnership and co-operation, as the real but incomplete communion we share was rediscovered and affirmed. Pope Paul VI and Archbishop Ramsey undertook at that time to establish a dialogue in which matters which had been divisive in the past might be addressed from a fresh perspective with truth and love.
Since that meeting, the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion have entered into a process of fruitful dialogue, which has been marked by the discovery of significant elements of shared faith and a desire to give expression, through joint prayer, witness and service, to that which we hold in common. Over thirty-five years, the Anglican - Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC) has produced a number of important documents which seek to articulate the faith we share. In the ten years since the most recent Common Declaration was signed by the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury, the second phase of ARCIC has completed its mandate, with the publication of the documents The Gift of Authority (1999) and Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ (2005). We are grateful to the theologians who have prayed and worked together in the preparation of these texts, which await further study and reflection.
True ecumenism goes beyond theological dialogue; it touches our spiritual lives and our common witness. As our dialogue has developed, many Catholics and Anglicans have found in each other a love for Christ which invites us into practical co-operation and service. This fellowship in the service of Christ, experienced by many of our communities around the world, adds a further impetus to our relationship.
This is a quote from the Anglican-Roman Catholic Commission and there are similar documents with he other Protestant denominations. I have highlighted the section in bold which refers to joint prayer. Funnily nothing about hereticism here!!
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liturgyluver
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This is like the blind leading the partially sighted! I’ll will await with interest any official docments or references from Canon Law forbidding attendence at protestant services.
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A_Catholic
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Before Vatican II, it was not permitted for Catholics to attend protestant services. From an article by Father Thomas Crean:
*Fr. D. Prummer OP, writing in 1910, affirms in his Manuale Theologiæ Moralis that it is never licit for a Catholic to take part in a non-Catholic cult with the intention of worshipping God in the manner of non-Catholics, more acatholicorum. Such an act, he declares, is nothing other than a denial of the Catholic faith.2 In the same year, writing an article on ‘Heresy’ for the Catholic Encyclopœdia, **Fr. J. Wilhelm SJ affirms that a Catholic may attend non-Catholic services, but only ‘provided no active part be taken in them’. *In an article on the same subject, the Dictionnaire de théologie catholique reiterates, in 1920, that active participation in non-Catholic rites is toujours interdite – the reason being that it is ‘equivalent to a denial of the Catholic faith’. In 1930, Fr. B. Merkelbach OP in his Summa Theologiæ Moralis writes that ‘active participation in the sacred things of a [non-Catholic] public cult is illicit, since it implies approval of the worship and a recognition of the sect.’3 Using a slightly different terminology but teaching the same doctrine, Fr. L. Fanfani OP writes, in 1950, ‘material communicatio in sacris ‘material’ in the sense that the person in question does not mean to renounce his Catholic faith], if it is active and immediate, is never permissible for Catholics.’4 The reason for this, he explains, is that such behaviour necessarily manifests a commitment to a heretical or at least an illegitimate cultus.
The article goes on to state:
It is important to notice that this prohibition is not presented by these theologians as an ecclesiastical ban. It is not the law of the Church which is traditionally understood to exclude Catholics from taking part in non-Catholic services; it is the divine law, which requires that outward acts of worship be expressive of inward faith. Nor is common worship only forbidden when the prayers or scriptural translations used by the non-Catholic group have an heretical sense: the mere act of sharing the worship of a non-Catholic group, according to the teaching of the theologians cited above, implies a community of religion with that group, and hence constitutes a sin against the faith. This explains why, as Pius XI recalled in the 1928 encyclical Mortalium Animos, ‘[the] Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics.’
What does this have to do with Vatican II:
*The Second Vatican Council gave its endorsement to work for the unity of Christians in the Decree Unitatis Redintegratio. After laying down in its first part some Catholic principles on ecumenism, the document goes on to speak of ecumenism in practice. In speaking of the necessary rôle played in the search for unity by conversion of heart and by prayer, it affirms:
In certain circumstances, such as prayers ‘for unity’ and during ecumenical gatherings, it is allowable, indeed desirable that Catholics should join in prayer with their separated brethren.6
Does this statement contradict the traditional teaching on communicaio in sacris which has just been outlined? No, for it is not stated that this common prayer must involve Catholics taking part in any prayers others than ones authorised by the Catholic Church and led by her sacred ministers. The Council Fathers however do not directly seek to relate their remarks about common prayer to what I have called the traditional teaching on communicatio in sacris; instead they go on to state that two principles must be borne in mind to establish a sound doctrine on such communicatio, namely ‘the need for the unity of the Church to be visibly manifested’ and ‘the grace that may be obtained thereby’. *
Vatican II was supporting prayer between Catholics and Protestant groups. The council was not supporting individual Catholics going to protestant services by themselves and just joining in. Holy Mother Church would never support that. None of us are that spiritually strong. Even the examples you gave are of groups of Catholics joining with protestants, with a Catholic priest there. If you’re really interested in an answer, go to the article I have linked. It is rather long, but very enlightening, and agrees completely with Fr. Serpa and Cardinal Arinze.
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saint_peter
Guest
Well protestants are different from catholics,and we as catholics believe that catholism is the one true religion.Maybe it is better morally and respectfully to stick to ones own prayer service or mass.I know from what i feel and think that i couldnt enter any other church than a roman catholic one.It is a matter of judment and honour.Saying that we are all himan beings and god loves us all
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TrueLight
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I go there to sing.The Catholic Mass is the re-presentation of our Lord’s Sacrifice on Calvary, the Sacrifice that is the salvation of the world, both physically and spiritually. This cannot be found anywhere else on earth. Why do you want to go to a poor facsimile of that, so empty and cold compared to the great Sacrifice of the Mass?
I personally prefer and thank God that I can be where the real action is.
And you are not going to want to hear this, but I will wait on the Lord regarding this matter. When he wants me to leave, he will let me know.
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NewsTheMan
Guest
Join a choir? Your continual attendance at a Protestant worship service is scandalous. How can you witness to these Protestants if you attend their services even if it’s under the auspices of “just to sing”? Much like I think, they would be saying “well, why isnt she in a choir, yeah she must actually want to be protestant!”.
Reverse the situation and have an objective look at it.
A Protestant who goes to a Catholic Mass just to sing. Would you buy it? Would you recommend she keep going (i.e. hoping for her conversion)? Would you say she isn’t soaking up any of the stuff she is hearing and seeing?
Think about it.
You’ve got a taste of Heaven on earth. If you wanna sing, do it! Join a choir or something.
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TrueLight
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No it’s not scandalous.
I sing in a choir. That is why I am there once a month. And I’m not soaking up anything as this is the Church I used to attend. I know very well what it’s about.
How can I be a witness? I’ll tell you.
People are marveling that I converted to Catholicism. In fact, one woman, who was baptized Catholic, and has sort of longed to go and at least try a mass, is interested in coming along with her husband (a baptized Catholic who doesn’t attend church at all), to try a Latin mass.
Yes, I am a witness by just the fact of my conversion. My friends are constantly asking me about Catholicism.
You don’t have to agree with me.
I asked my traditional priest and although he didn’t like it, he said the Church does not forbid it. He told me to pray about it and ask for an answer from God. That’s whose advice I’ll take.
That matters more to me than your judgmental cries of scandalous.
Really, there is a way to speak to someone in charity.
Can you and Acatholic please move on to the next post, because I do not want to be the focus of this thread.
Thank you!
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Morgan_Hiver
Guest
A Catholic, great replies! I guess I am much too sarcastic to be taken seriously by the others. I’m just so confused as to how people get brainwashed into believing that protestantism is equal, or nearly equal, to Catholicism. You have Catholics out there that continually defend their stance on inter-religious prayer/worship services as being a good Christian. These same people both mock and deny the true teachings of our church. I said it before and I’ll say it again…there is absolutely nothing beneficial being offered to our spirits by attending these services. All this does is make you look like a hip Catholic for attending a “real Christian church” gatherings to your friends, neighbours and the protestants of that group.
True Light,
NewsTheMan raises a good point. Why not just join a choir? There are plenty of choirs in the style of which you are accustomed to. I do know that you enjoy the EF but you can go to a NO that one day a month instead.
Edit; replied before I saw True lights post. Now you ARE the focus! Haha. Anyway…the whole scandal thing plays a big part. It gets all the other parishioners talking and causes gossip. Then in turn it is damaging to the spirits of others. At least this is what I hear of scandal.
True Light,
NewsTheMan raises a good point. Why not just join a choir? There are plenty of choirs in the style of which you are accustomed to. I do know that you enjoy the EF but you can go to a NO that one day a month instead.
Edit; replied before I saw True lights post. Now you ARE the focus! Haha. Anyway…the whole scandal thing plays a big part. It gets all the other parishioners talking and causes gossip. Then in turn it is damaging to the spirits of others. At least this is what I hear of scandal.
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TrueLight
Guest
Thank you for the suggestion.
When God wants me to move, he will open up a door.
This may seem strange to some people, but I actually do pray and listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
Maybe one day I will come here and announce that I have left, but this is not the time.
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Contarini
Guest
Henry was the head of the Church of England. He isn’t any more. Nor has any English monarch after Edward VI held that title, I believe.
You need to stop with the jabs and have a substantive conversation. You apparently can’t be bothered with the simple courtesy of figuring out what I believe and am committed to, instead of attacking what you think I must believe.
And Henry broke with Rome over just one annulment (though indeed he got another one later). He was even more frivolous than you think
Briefly: the only sense in which I defend Anglicanism is that we are a community of baptized Christians who stand in historic continuity with the pre-Reformation Catholic Church. I’m not saying that this continuity is perfect, but the point is that we don’t regard ourselves as beginning with Henry–he is one episode in our history. If you try to talk to us on some other basis, you will get nowhere fast.
That being said, I think that my fellow Anglicans have an indefensible position inasmuch as they claim to be Catholic and accuse your Communion of “arrogance” for saying otherwise.
I agree with Vatican II that our connection with the Catholic Church is only imperfect. I am less certain about the claim that we lost apostolic succession under Edward VI, but I am not certain it’s false either.
Edwin
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A_Catholic
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I mentioned you in one post because one poster said no one here is advocating going to protestant services on a regular basis, and you said that is exactly what you are doing. You should not have brought the subject up if you did not want it to be discussed, and doing so, you should have realized that most Catholics would not be in favor of attending Protestant services. You should also realize why most Catholics are not in favor of it. You have now seen my posts about Cardinal Arinze, Father Serpa and my other posts showing that Catholics should not be attending Protestant services. You need to decide if God is talking to you or not. You are brand new in the church. Going back to what you came out of doesn’t seem to bode well.No it’s not scandalous.
I sing in a choir. That is why I am there once a month. And I’m not soaking up anything as this is the Church I used to attend. I know very well what it’s about.
How can I be a witness? I’ll tell you.
People are marveling that I converted to Catholicism. In fact, one woman, who was baptized Catholic, and has sort of longed to go and at least try a mass, is interested in coming along with her husband (a baptized Catholic who doesn’t attend church at all), to try a Latin mass.
Yes, I am a witness by just the fact of my conversion. My friends are constantly asking me about Catholicism.
You don’t have to agree with me.
I asked my traditional priest and although he didn’t like it, he said the Church does not forbid it. He told me to pray about it and ask for an answer from God. That’s whose advice I’ll take.
That matters more to me than your judgmental cries of scandalous.
Really, there is a way to speak to someone in charity.
Can you and Acatholic please move on to the next post, because I do not want to be the focus of this thread.
Thank you!
God bless you.
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Contarini
Guest
Well, I’d like to think it’s because Protestants are brothers and sisters in Christ, albeit only in imperfect communion with the Church.
But if that isn’t a good answer for you, how about because your Catechism tells you to?
The view maintained by some on this forum is that this “prayer in common” should not consist of participation in the regular worship of Protestants. But there’s no doubt that the Catholic Church calls for its faithful to pray together with Protestants.
Edwin
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