Is it a sin to pray with Protestants?

[TrueLight]

Going back to what you came out of doesn’t seem to bode well.
God bless you.

Thanks, but you are neither the keeper of my soul, nor a prophet.

 

[A_Catholic]

The view maintained by some on this forum is that this “prayer in common” should not consist of participation in the regular worship of Protestants. But there’s no doubt that the Catholic Church calls for its faithful to pray together with Protestants.

Edwin

Prayer in common does not mean a Catholic should attend Protestant worship services.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Thank you for the suggestion.

When God wants me to move, he will open up a door.

This may seem strange to some people, but I actually do pray and listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe one day I will come here and announce that I have left, but this is not the time.

Become EC and you get to sing and have a traditional Liturgy

 

[A_Catholic]

Thank you for the suggestion.

When God wants me to move, he will open up a door.

This may seem strange to some people, but I actually do pray and listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe one day I will come here and announce that I have left, but this is not the time.

This does not seem to be something that you should be joking about. You are talking about your eternal life here.

Your post here shows your Protestant background: “When God wants me to move, he will open up a door. This may seem strange to some people, but I actually do pray and listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.”

As Catholics, when we need to make a decision in life, especially something as momentous as attending Protestant services, we first look to the Church, and specifically, the Magesterium, to make that decision. Protestants, on the other hand, believe strictly in sola scriptura and are basically their own magesterium. And if they don’t like what their church is telling them, they just move on to another one or even start their own. True Catholics tend not to trust their own “inner voice” very much, and those who do tend to be what are called “cafeteria” Catholics.

You have seen in this thread what the Church says about attending Protestant services on a regular basis, even if it’s just to “sing”, as seen in the Cardinal Arinze video. It seems you have chosen to ignore all that and do what you feel is right instead.

I do hope you will get some serious counseling on this matter.

Now you’ll be glad to know I will move on. It was not my intention to put the spotlight on you, but I did feel it was important to answer your posts.

 

[TrueLight]

Become EC and you get to sing and have a traditional Liturgy

 

[OraLabora]

For those who believe in “circle the wagons” Catholicism, it appears that fruitful discussion is impossible. For the rest of us, perhaps being a bit more clear on terminology might help.

To start, we should have a common and working definition for “pray with” and “worship with”. In particular the way we view the Eucharist confuses us because of differing notions of worship. Of course we cannot worship an unconsecrated host. However the Eucharist is not the only form of worship. Moreover it is possible to attend a Protestant service without participating, but as an observer. It is also possible to limit participation to the notions we have in common such as acknowledging the Holy Trinity or reciting the Nicene Creed even though we understand it differently. The Creed will be central to any future rapprochement with our separated brethren.

For those lacking in spiritual maturity stepping into a Protestant church may indeed not be a good idea. Those of us mature in our faith should follow our conscience and not be cowed by those who would tell us how to think and act.

 

[TrueLight]

This does not seem to be something that you should be joking about. You are talking about your eternal life here.

Your post here shows your Protestant background: “When God wants me to move, he will open up a door. This may seem strange to some people, but I actually do pray and listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.”

As Catholics, when we need to make a decision in life, especially something as momentous as attending Protestant services, we first look to the Church, and specifically, the Magesterium, to make that decision. Protestants, on the other hand, believe strictly in sola scriptura and are basically their own magesterium. And if they don’t like what their church is telling them, they just move on to another one or even start their own. True Catholics tend not to trust their own “inner voice” very much, and those who do tend to be what are called “cafeteria” Catholics.

You have seen in this thread what the Church says about attending Protestant services on a regular basis, even if it’s just to “sing”, as seen in the Cardinal Arinze video. It seems you have chosen to ignore all that and do what you feel is right instead.

I do hope you will get some serious counseling on this matter.

Now you’ll be glad to know I will move on. It was not my intention to put the spotlight on you, but I did feel it was important to answer your posts.

Where do you see me joking?

Again, I will take the advice of my traditional priest as well as two other priests who have essentially said the same thing, before I take the advice of someone who doesn’t know me and relishes making quick, simple, black and white judgments.

I would recommend you spend more time in prayer and your relationship with the Lord and less in pronouncing judgment on others.

See how easy it is to be judgmental without knowing a person?

That is not to say that I don’t appreciate your concern, but there is a way to express concern without stating that things don’t bode well for someone or saying that they are being scandalous, which someone else said.

Those methods of rebuking are ineffective because it puts the person on the defensive.

Thank you for moving on.

 

[Contarini]

This is a very long thread and I have not read all of it, but I have to say some of the posts are a little scary in that they are defending worship with those who do not believe as Catholics do.

Unfortunately–or maybe fortunately–the truth is not limited to that which does not scare you.

First of all, I can’t understand why you would want to worship on any kind of regular basis in a place that does not have the Blessed Sacrament. The most perfect worship in the world is the Mass, why would you want to go anywhere else.

Funny–that sounds exactly like the Protestant argument “if you can pray straight to God, why would you want to ask saints to pray for you?” By your logic Catholics shouldn’t pray in their homes; and if you take the point about the Mass and push it, you could have an argument against other forms of prayer, such as the Rosary, or the Liturgy of the Hours, or any of the many Catholic devotions. In short, it makes absolutely no sense to argue that because there is a most perfect way therefore no other way should ever be used. As St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out, God creates diverse grades of goodness in order to enhance the perfection of the whole.

Singing hymns in honor of the Blessed Trinity; reading Scripture publicly; praying for one another’s needs; these are all worthy things to do, aren’t they?

Fr. Serpa addressed this question a few years ago. Take a look at his answer:

In the first place a Catholic has no business attending Protestant church services even occasionally.

I see. Am I correct in thinking that Fr. Serpa has no official standing as a mouthpiece of the Magisterium beyond that which he shares with the many other Catholic priests in the world?

How would he reconcile his opinion with the explicit statements found in the “Principles and Norms on Ecumenism” issued by the Vatican, sects. 102-119. This, just to give one example and avoid lengthy quotation:

In liturgical celebrations taking place in other Churches and ecclesial Communities, Catholics are encouraged to take part in the psalms, responses, hymns and common actions of the Church in which they are guests. If invited by their hosts, they may read a lesson or preach.

• To participate in a heretical worship service and especially a communion service can be sinful for a Catholic*

I note the rather sneaky “can” there. Under what circumstances? We all know that Catholics aren’t allowed to receive communion in Protestant churches. That’s not the issue here. And of course under certain circumstances going to a Protestant church could be sinful, or at least an occasion of sin. No dispute there either. But the Vatican’s official norms speak approvinglyof participation in the non-sacramental worship of other Christians. I note that Fr. Serpa gives absolutely no support for his position from the teaching of the Magisterium. It seems to be his own opinion, perhaps fueled by his high regard for the stricter policies in place before Vatican II. What evidence supports his claim that this is still the policy of the Church (bearing in mind that this is a matter of discipline and not doctrine, though of course, like all the Church’s disciplines, it’s rooted in doctrine)?

 

[Contarini]

*** because such an act is an affirmation of what we believe to be untrue***.

*Help me out with this. How does singing a hymn expressing fully orthodox doctrine and praising the Holy Trinity affirm what Catholics believe to be untrue? How does joining in prayer to God for one another’s needs affirm anything Catholics believe to be untrue? How does hearing the public reading of Scripture affirm what Catholics believe to be untrue?

It’s certainly true that a Protestant worship service mightcontain elements with which a Catholic might not agree. Many do–many do not. It depends on the particular community and the particular occasion and what the pastor might happen to say in the sermon, etc. But participation in a Protestant worship service does not imply agreement with everything that is going on. The point where a Catholic is most likely to disagree would probably be the sermon, but both Protestants and Catholics frequently disagree with what is said in sermons in their own churches. A sermon is, in part, a matter of the preacher’s own opinion, though of course rooted in the teachings of his (or her) ecclesial community.

• To attend an ecumenical service or a wedding or baptism is allowed, but Catholics are not allowed to attend such churches for the main reason of worship.*

Complete lack of citation of an actual document issues by the Magisterium duly noted. Where does one Catholic priest get the authority to state, without any backup, what Catholics as a whole or allowed to do or not to do?

I think that pretty much covers it, although I know there will be those who will deny it.

Yes, the pretty obvious disagreement with the Vatican’s own explicitly stated norms would be one reason why some might deny it!

If you attend Protestant services, think about the message you are sending to the Protestants. As Cardinal Arinze said, you are basically telling them that their worship is equal to Catholic worship.

With all due respect to Cardinal Arinze, he doesn’t have the ability to read the minds of Protestants. Of course some might draw that conclusion. But as I’ve said several times, I know for a fact that many non-Catholic Western Christians–particularly Episcopalians–really think that Catholics don’t think we are Christians at all.

And it makes absolutely no sense, at least from an Episcopalian point of view, to think that a person attending our Eucharist and not receiving Communion believes our worship to be “equal” to his. Cardinal Arinze is worrying about a fairly remote possibility, and ignoring the very real fact that non-Catholics have no idea how highly the Catholic Church regards them. When I tell my fellow Episcopalians about what the Catholic Church actually teaches, that we do have a real though imperfect union with the Catholic Church, that many elements of grace and salvation are found among us, etc., they simply don’t believe me (I think they think I’m so enamored with “Rome” that I’m whitewashing Catholic teaching). Why? Largely because they don’t find Catholics acting as if they really believed these things. The fact that Catholics won’t intercommune with us is deeply offensive to Episcopalians. It makes the point of our inferiority (which you and Cardinal Arinze think is so vitally important) quite well.

Edwin

 

[A_Catholic]

Moreover it is possible to attend a Protestant service without participating, but as an observer. It is also possible to limit participation to the notions we have in common such as acknowledging the Holy Trinity or reciting the Nicene Creed even though we understand it differently. The Creed will be central to any future rapprochement with our separated brethren.

For those lacking in spiritual maturity stepping into a Protestant church may indeed not be a good idea. Those of us mature in our faith should follow our conscience and not be cowed by those who would tell us how to think and act.

Why would a Catholic want to go to a Protestant service??? That’s what I don’t get.

 

[Contarini]

Nobody here is advocating attending a protestant service on a regular basis

Well, I am. If I do become Catholic, I certainly intend to do so unless clearly shown that it is contrary to the teaching of the Church (so far, the results of my discussion of this matter on several forums have been highly encouraging, since the widespread view that this is impermissible turns out to have even less basis in actual Catholic teaching than I thought!). And frankly if I were convinced that I couldn’t do so, it would be a further obstacle to my conversion. One reason I have so far not converted, and still find the prospect very difficult, is my unwillingness to give up receiving communion in the Episcopal church.

This isn’t just a personal matter–though it is certainly that. It is also theological. I refuse to turn my back on the goodness and truth I already have just because I thirst for the fullness that I so far lack.

Edwin

 

[A_Catholic]

Well, I am. If I do become Catholic, I certainly intend to do so unless clearly shown that it is contrary to the teaching of the Church (so far, the results of my discussion of this matter on several forums have been highly encouraging, since the widespread view that this is impermissible turns out to have even less basis in actual Catholic teaching than I thought!). And frankly if I were convinced that I couldn’t do so, it would be a further obstacle to my conversion. One reason I have so far not converted, and still find the prospect very difficult, is my unwillingness to give up receiving communion in the Episcopal church.

This isn’t just a personal matter–though it is certainly that. It is also theological. I refuse to turn my back on the goodness and truth I already have just because I thirst for the fullness that I so far lack.

Edwin

I respect your honesty and forthrightness. Our Lord said seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened. If you are truly seeking and knocking, the right doors will open to you.

P.S. Do you as an Anglican pray to our Blessed Mother? She is always a great source!

 

[Morgan_Hiver]

Edwin, I don’t know which Catholic forums would be supportive in your errors, unless they are militant liberals and fear the idea of the “nazi Pope setting the VII progress back to the middle ages”. Try going to a more traditional minded forum and see how they receive your ideas. I do hope that your journey does bring you home, though…honestly.

The problem with Catholics today is that we have so many liberals pushing modernism on us every single moment of every single day (skanky women on billboards, shirtless men on bubblegum ads targeted towards the lustful eyes of bored house wives and homosexuals and so many other things) we are being forced to believe that to be accepting and open to other faiths is to be a good Christian and an evolved human. We are attacked and called bigots if we display traditional values…this even happens on here. We all need to learn about the Catholic faith before we start defending false religions and fighting eachother. You know what will happen? Even if we don’t see eye to eye on every single aspect (not talking doctrine, more like EF vs NO) we will be less likely to allow false religions to drag us down with them.

 

[OraLabora]

Why would a Catholic want to go to a Protestant service??? That’s what I don’t get.

I am married to a Protestant. That’s why, out of reciprocal respect for each other. Go back and read the entire thread. You’d learn for example that my Catholic mother was married to my Anglican father in 1955. By a Catholic priest, with proper dispensations.

I therefore have 53 years experience with interfaith marriage. Oddly enough, I am still Catholic, and my mother died at age 83… Still a Catholic. That you or others suggest that I am endangering my eternal fate strikes me as arrogant and narrow-minded. With that, I should probably recuse myself from this thread before it becomes an occasion of sin by tempting me to say something very uncharitable.

 

[Morgan_Hiver]

To be a Catholic is to be traditional. You are a perfect example of what I was commenting on. Thanks for proving my points so selflessly!

 

[Contarini]

A Catholic;8581379* Using a slightly different terminology but teaching the same doctrine:

, if it is active and immediate, is never permissible for Catholics.’4 The reason for this, he explains, is that such behaviour necessarily manifests a commitment to a heretical or at least an illegitimate cultus.

Yes, but in post-Vatican II usage this has clearly been narrowed to refer to sacramental worship only.

It is important to notice that this prohibition is not presented by these theologians as an ecclesiastical ban. It is not the law of the Church which is traditionally understood to exclude Catholics from taking part in non-Catholic services; it is the divine law, which requires that outward acts of worship be expressive of inward faith.

Indeed. Thus, given the explicit recognition by the Church of an imperfect union of faith between Protestants and Catholics, an imperfect degree of common worship (not involving Eucharistic intercommunion but allowing for prayer, reading of Scripture, etc., in common) is the appropriate expression of the Church’s developed teaching.

• Nor is common worship only forbidden when the prayers or scriptural translations used by the non-Catholic group have an heretical sense: the mere act of sharing the worship of a non-Catholic group, according to the teaching of the theologians cited above, implies a community of religion with that group, and hence constitutes a sin against the faith.*

That is a theological interpretation which is clearly nullified (note that I do not say that the Church’s official doctrine is nullified) by the teaching of Vatican II, which recognizes that there is a limited “community of religion” between Protestants and Catholics.

*The Second Vatican Council gave its endorsement to work for the unity of Christians in the Decree Unitatis Redintegratio. After laying down in its first part some Catholic principles on ecumenism, the document goes on to speak of ecumenism in practice. In speaking of the necessary rôle played in the search for unity by conversion of heart and by prayer, it affirms:

In certain circumstances, such as prayers ‘for unity’ and during ecumenical gatherings, it is allowable, indeed desirable that Catholics should join in prayer with their separated brethren.6

Does this statement contradict the traditional teaching on communicaio in sacris which has just been outlined? No, for it is not stated that this common prayer must involve Catholics taking part in any prayers others than ones authorised by the Catholic Church and led by her sacred ministers.*

True–but the 1993 ecumenical norms which I have cited repeatedly do very explicitly speak of such prayers.

• The Council Fathers however do not directly seek to relate their remarks about common prayer to what I have called the traditional teaching on communicatio in sacris;*

Right–the Principles and Norms for Ecumenism do this much more clearly. It’s striking that you and other Catholics who claim to be following Church law repeatedly ignore this document. I cite it over and over, but you are unwilling even to admit it exists, or so it seems. The Vatican goes to the trouble of spelling out quite precisely what is and is not allowed, but it doesn’t fit your notions of what the Church ought to say, so you pay no attention.

I guess this is another proof that “cafeteria Catholicism” is found on the right as well as the left

Vatican II was supporting prayer between Catholics and Protestant groups

. The council was not supporting individual Catholics going to protestant services by themselves and just joining in. .

The Principles and Norms explicitly speak of just this, saying that Catholics may participate actively in liturgical worship when invited to do so by their hosts.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I respect your honesty and forthrightness. Our Lord said seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened. If you are truly seeking and knocking, the right doors will open to you.

P.S. Do you as an Anglican pray to our Blessed Mother? She is always a great source!

Thanks for your kind words. I do occasionally but have not made a regular practice of it in recent years. I agree that it would be a good thing to take up again

I was explaining the Rosary to a colleague and a student (not currently one of my students, but someone who regularly meets with my colleague to discuss spiritual matters) the other day, and it brought back the days when I used to pray the Rosary regularly with the Catholic student group at Duke!

Edwin

 

[Morgan_Hiver]

Digging what hole? I was not ranting, as you say. I was saying that most people have been desensitized by the liberal media and sucked into believing that there are many ways to find God. People look to Lady Gaga for catechism, as all of her fans know that she is Catholic, but just a COOL, REALISTIC Catholic. Things like this is what drives people like you to attack traditional views and truth.

 

[Contarini]

Edwin, I don’t know which Catholic forums would be supportive in your errors, unless they are militant liberals and fear the idea of the “nazi Pope setting the VII progress back to the middle ages”.

Morgan, I find liberal Catholics of the sort you describe far less congenial than I do the folks on this forum! The vitriol found on the NCR comments pages, for instance, is just horrifying.

I know a lot of “real life” Catholics who are much more moderate than any of the groups you find online, whether liberal or Catholic.

Try going to a more traditional minded forum and see how they receive your ideas.

I think I’ll pass on that, thanks.

The problem with Catholics today is that we have so many liberals pushing modernism on us every single moment of every single day (skanky women on billboards, shirtless men on bubblegum ads targeted towards the lustful eyes of bored house wives and homosexuals and so many other things) we are being forced to believe that to be accepting and open to other faiths is to be a good Christian and an evolved human.

I don’t see a connection between the two things. I know that if you are a real traditionalist you may not think much of Vatican II, but as I see it Vatican II was a profound and powerful development (in exactly Newman’s sense–not a change which broke with the past but a further clarification and expansion) of Catholic teaching on the Church, and this–not secular norms of tolerance–is the basis for what I’m arguing.

I fell in love with a certain kind of Catholicism years ago–not the ultra-conservative sort often found on these forums, and not the militant liberalism of the NCR crowd either, but the “ressourcement” theology of folks like De Lubac and Bouyer, which I find well represented by the current Pope. The problem is that I don’t see a lot of that kind of Catholicism in “real life,” on the ground. In practice, at least in my North Carolina parish at the end of the last millennium, it seemed easier to practice that kind of Catholicism as an Episcopalian than in communion with Rome. I would now agree that this was an illusion. But I’m trying to tell you where I’m coming from. I don’t find your dichotomies convincing–I think that this kind of thinking on both sides is seriously damaging Catholicism, and thus the rest of Christianity (because the very mildest way of describing the importance of your Communion for the rest of us is that when you sneeze we all catch cold!).

We all need to learn about the Catholic faith before we start defending false religions and fighting eachother.

But what’s striking is that the “conservatives” on this forum don’t actually seem to know their own Church’s official norms

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Digging what hole? I was not ranting, as you say. I was saying that most people have been desensitized by the liberal media and sucked into believing that there are many ways to find God. People look to Lady Gaga for catechism, as all of her fans know that she is Catholic, but just a COOL, REALISTIC Catholic. Things like this is what drives people like you to attack traditional views and truth.

Who looks to Lady Gaga for catechism or thinks she’s a model Catholic?

That statement just doesn’t make any sense.

And you seem to be suggesting that Lady Gaga is somehow influencing Jharek’s posts, which frankly makes even less sense:shrug:.

Edwin