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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
is it a sin to pray with fellow Christians? Are you kidding me? And this is the religion I have been thinking about joining? Yikes!!!
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OraLabora
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Give it a rest Morgan. I am a completely orthodox Catholic. I do not read nor have I ever read Hans Kung, I read the Church fathers and lives of the saints every morning at Vigils.
Your ad-hominem and ridiculous attempt at labeling someone you don’t even know is not winning you any points, and I am most certainly not “your modern friend”. My views on relations with Protestants are entirely in keeping with the Catechism of the Catholic Church and are consistent with those of a Church that willingly allowed my Catholic mother to marry my Protestant father well before Vatican II, under the reign of that most orthodox of Popes, Pius XII.
Roy is not Catholic, BTW, as was pointed out to you. Therefore as far as I am concerned most Catholics on this thread have most certainly not encouraged you to stray from the faith.
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Morgan_Hiver
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Haha I know that he isn’t Catholic. How are you not understanding my previous posts? Anyway…I’m glad that your parents were able to find love in a very oppressive time.
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Melchior_1
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You didn’t address any of his points. Could you elaborate?
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Morgan_Hiver
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What points do I need to address? How can I possibly disagree with the poster child for interfaith families? It obviously worked for him and that is wonderful…honestly.
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Melchior_1
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This is the second or third post from you now that is lacking some charity. OraLabora brought up some excellent, and objective, points. He then gave some personal experiences on top of that. You’ve replied with sarcasm and, at least from my perspective, a lack of charity. No need to say things like “And as for embarrassing the entire church, I’d like to think that my views are more inline with traditional teachings, as yours are definitely more hip to the times, my modern friend. Do you read a lot of Hans Kung?”.
From my perspective, this trhead brings home the beauty of Dominican spirituality. A large part of what has drawn me to the Order is the blend of the systematic and spiritual. There is Aquinas, and there is Catherine. I find that Dominicans, and those who practice Dominican spirituality, utilize both in their preaching in their prayer.
The practical side of this happens when discussing things and being with Protestants, the systematic allows for us to look at things intellectually and objectively. We can see we have the full Truth, but can also see that there are elements of said Truth that they hold onto. Working from there, you can move from that point and gradually (and with charity) bridge from that one to another. Things like the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture. We all agree that Scripture is infallible and inspired by the Holy Spirit, but that can be bridged into talking about the first 300 years of the Church before the Canon was established. Things like that sow the seeds of conversion, without hitting people over the head.
The spiritual allows us to place water on those seeds. And with that water, they will want more to grow. This water includes prayer, and eventually you could even introduce some devotional practices. praying the Our Father with them opens all kinds of avenues. And open for them the way to Lectio Divina, which should appeal to them greatly.
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Morgan_Hiver
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First of all, he was being uncharitable towards me by stating that I was embarrassing the church. Second, I really see his views as hurtful for the faith and am glad that traditional societies and clergy are showing up again to combat a lot of the changes and abuses being made. So, since I feel that way, why should I take the time to explain myself over and over again when he clearly does not understand or just does not agree with me?
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Melchior_1
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The “eye for an eye” thing is so Old Testament.
What OraLabora is saying isn’t something from the 70’s and 80’s, it’s actually quite traditional. From what I can tell his views on ecumenism are inline with traditional Benedictine theology that has been around for centuries (he’s a Benedictine Oblate, he can elaborate on that one himself). I can speak for Dominicans, and I can say that what OraLabora is saying is inline with traditional Dominican/Augustinian theology (also centuries). And traditional Franciscan theology too (also centuries).
The methodology of evangelization used by Dominicans and Franciscans since their foundation has laid the groundwork in several missionary initiatives, and also Church teaching. The principles of which Brother JR has mentioned. OraLabora is saying very similar things, and he’s a Benedictine.
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Morgan_Hiver
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What’s wrong with the old testament?
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Melchior_1
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Matthew 5:17-48 sort of deals with that, doesn’t it?
Care to respond to the other portion of my post, specifically where I talked about traditional Catholic spiriutality within orders?
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Morgan_Hiver
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Rather not respond. We share different views on ecumenicism and learning from those other religions. Also, instead of slapping me with “turn the other cheek” passages, why not do the same to him? He said that I was the embarrassment. I’m sure the other Benedictines would be very proud of him for that one.
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Melchior_1
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Perhaps because you’ve been overtly sarcastic in this entire thread to anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of things? That could be why I directed it at you specifically.
I’d still like hearing your response regarding traditional practices of religious orders that have been doing things since their foundation, and now Rome is encouraging people to act like said orders since their foundation. But if you don’t want to, that’s fine. You were so vocal about other things I thought you’d like to share your perspective on the traditional teachings of the orders.
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Morgan_Hiver
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I’d rather not share with you. Sorry to disappoint!
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JReducation
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Morgan, you’re wrong on many points my friend. First, there is no sin or heresy in praying with Protestants. Popes do it, saints have done it, and it is good for all when there is a good reason to do it.
There are times when it’s even necessary, such as at a funeral, wedding, baptism, demonstration against abortion, praying before meals, praying before beginning a joint task such as serving meals at a soup kitchen, etc.
By the way, calling someone a poster child for mixed marriages is offensive and does not represent Catholicism very well. We are not a religion of intolerance and bigotry. It is bad enough when others are intolerant of our positions and prejudice toward us. We don’t have to compound it by returning the favor.
If you want to evangelize look at people like Mother Teresa who never uttered a single word against non Catholic or non-Christians. Yet, thousands of people’s lives were changed and many converts were gained by her manner of evangelizing. She taught the Gospel by her example.
Look at men like Francis of Assisi and his sons in the Holy Land. They have lived there for 800 years in peace with Muslims and Jews. They have protected the places sacred to Christians, served the Christians in the region, opened the doors of dialogue for the Church and the people of Palestine and made many converts along the way, all the time following Pope Gregory IX’s command not to proselytize to the Muslims and Jews, but to preach by their presence and their love for the Gospel.
We do not defend the faith by attacking. If you read the writings of St. Dominic to the Friar Preachers, he prohibits the arguing with the heretics of the time, the finger pointing, the calling out and commands his Friar Preachers to preach the truth in a scholarly and systematic manner, while always being the most humble servants of all, including the heretics and behaving as the most docile of men. Docility and antagonism don’t go together.
I admire you love for the faith, but I must point out to others who are not Catholics, that your manner of defending the faith is not approved by the Church and has never been approved by the Church. The Inquisition was not an agency of the pope, but of the state. If you’re going to take an inquisatorial manner, you will find yourself at odds with such great saints and thinkers as Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Lawrence of Brindisi, Francis of Osuna, Ignatius of Loyola, Francis Xavier, Bartolome de las Casas and Juniper Serra, all of whom repudiated the methods of the Inquisition, because of their gratuitous attack on those who disagreed with them or who were different. Yet, all of these people gave their lives in service of the faith.
Only you can decide whether you want to play inquisitor or be another Teresa of Avila.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
There are times when it’s even necessary, such as at a funeral, wedding, baptism, demonstration against abortion, praying before meals, praying before beginning a joint task such as serving meals at a soup kitchen, etc.
No one here has advocated Protestantism. I don’t think that NewsTheMan was saying that it’s a sin to pray with Protestants. That’s not what I got from his comments.
No it is not a sin, as you can see from my statement above.
So, are you advocating taking on Pope Benedict for praying at a synagogue or praying vespers at Westminster in London?
By the way, calling someone a poster child for mixed marriages is offensive and does not represent Catholicism very well. We are not a religion of intolerance and bigotry. It is bad enough when others are intolerant of our positions and prejudice toward us. We don’t have to compound it by returning the favor.
If you want to evangelize look at people like Mother Teresa who never uttered a single word against non Catholic or non-Christians. Yet, thousands of people’s lives were changed and many converts were gained by her manner of evangelizing. She taught the Gospel by her example.
Look at men like Francis of Assisi and his sons in the Holy Land. They have lived there for 800 years in peace with Muslims and Jews. They have protected the places sacred to Christians, served the Christians in the region, opened the doors of dialogue for the Church and the people of Palestine and made many converts along the way, all the time following Pope Gregory IX’s command not to proselytize to the Muslims and Jews, but to preach by their presence and their love for the Gospel.
We do not defend the faith by attacking. If you read the writings of St. Dominic to the Friar Preachers, he prohibits the arguing with the heretics of the time, the finger pointing, the calling out and commands his Friar Preachers to preach the truth in a scholarly and systematic manner, while always being the most humble servants of all, including the heretics and behaving as the most docile of men. Docility and antagonism don’t go together.
I admire you love for the faith, but I must point out to others who are not Catholics, that your manner of defending the faith is not approved by the Church and has never been approved by the Church. The Inquisition was not an agency of the pope, but of the state. If you’re going to take an inquisatorial manner, you will find yourself at odds with such great saints and thinkers as Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Lawrence of Brindisi, Francis of Osuna, Ignatius of Loyola, Francis Xavier, Bartolome de las Casas and Juniper Serra, all of whom repudiated the methods of the Inquisition, because of their gratuitous attack on those who disagreed with them or who were different. Yet, all of these people gave their lives in service of the faith.
Only you can decide whether you want to play inquisitor or be another Teresa of Avila.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
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Morgan_Hiver
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Hahaha AGAIN I get singled out. I don’t agree with worship amongst Protestants. A personal preference of mine is not to pray with them either. I called him the poster boy because he definitely is an advocate. He supports it and is a product of it. He Is quite the fine specimen. Wasn’t saying it to offend him. However, he was saying things to offend me, but I am not offended that easily. Br JR, you are very knowledgeable, and I too admire your dedication to the faith. I think you are quite brave for leaving your family’s religion for the church. With that said, you do not know me or my personality. I’m not a bigot nor am I intolerant. Perhaps I am just in the wrong era. And since you brought it up, I can definitely see why people were upset by the actions of certain Popes kissing holy books of other religions, praying in false churches and so on. I do support BXVI and will continue to pray for him, as we all should. God bless him with good health and many more years of life.
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Morgan_Hiver
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This is no longer an entertaining discussion and so I will not be checking back for replies. Have a great night and God bless!
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OraLabora
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Many folks here will say that putting down someone you disagree with consists of “fraternal correction”. Benedictines do not shy away from calling a spade a spade. But it’s a tool of last resort. Being “traditionalist” does not mean you can disagree with the Church at will or pick and choose only that which you happen to agree with. Cafeteria Catholicism exists on both sides of the liberal/conservative divide. Those on the right who call those on the left “Protestant” are often no less guilty of the same.
There is only Church and she is neither liberal nor conservative. She is a beacon of Truth and those who follow her faithfully are neither liberal nor conservative. They are merely obedient and orthodox.
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Fone_Bone_2001
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“Allah” is not a name - it is the Arabic word for “God.” Arabic-speaking Christians refer to God as “Allah” as well.
Muslims are wrong about the real God in several important respects - the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus - but they do direct their prayers and worship to that God nonetheless: the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Bottom line: Jews overtly reject the idea of the Trinity, too. If that doesn’t prevent us from realizing that they share the same God with us, then Islamic errors shouldn’t prevent us from seeing that they share the same God we have, either.
I wholeheartedly agree.
in large part to learn more of various faiths and understand them better. By this I mean Christian churches in particular, but occasionally at a Jewish synangogue, Muslim mosque or Hindu or Buddhist temple - etc. We as Christians have a lot to learn. There is much wisdom in other religions and in other versions of our own particular religion.
There is wisdom outside as well as inside Christianity, it’s true. But that doesn’t make engaging in non-Christian worship okay. Remember, if you really believe Christianity, then you believe there is one God who alone deserves our adoration. Only three faiths - Christianity, Judaism, and Islam - even profess to worship this God - the one Who revealed Himself to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendents.
There are some contradictions between Christianity and other religions. Engaging in non-Christian worship that in some way stems from a position that contradicts Christian teaching is an implicit act of approval of those errors. We must avoid that sort of relativism at all costs.
I do not believe the Catholic Church thinks it has a monopoly on truth. Plenty of authoritative Church documents acknowledge that there is not only error but also some truth in other religions, and Vatican II teaches that truth is holy wherever it is found.
I don’t agree that we’re the only “true church” either. For starters, every community of the faithful lawfully united under a bishop is in some sense its own church. So there are many churches throughout the world. And even in the broader sense of an autonomous, self-governing body, there are still 23 churches in the world that are actually a part of the Catholic Church. But communion with the bishop of Rome does not automatically preclude the status of being a “true church” - the Orthodox, including the Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrian Church of the East, among others, are true and valid churches according to Catholic teaching.
So the Catholic Church agrees with you on this.
Nonetheless, we do profess that the fullness of Christ’s Church on earth subsists specifically in the Catholic Church.Well put, Brother!You must either think with the Church or remove yourself from the Church. You can’t have it both ways.
Here is what the Church says.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."
Don’t even go to the cop-out question, “Was that an infallible statement?”
It seems that when it’s convenient and agreeable to people, they never ask this question. When it’s inconvenient or not of their liking, then this becomes a paramount question. Of course, always forgetting that we owe the Ordinary Magisterium an assent of the will. Therefore, we accept what she says. The simple answer to this is that the Church cannot teach that which is contrary to the faith, even through the Ordinary Magisterium.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
That said, the poster to whom you were responding simply put “Christian” as his or her religion, so (s)he may not be Catholic.
Please don’t be discouraged. I promise you, friend, the replies of JReducation far better reflect the position of the Catholic Church than some of the more extreme positions expressed in this thread. I hope and think you can see that simply by reading them. The Church’s position is clear, articulate, charitable, and nuanced - just like JReducation’s replies.
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Fone_Bone_2001
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Thank you again, Brother, for a wonderful, articulate, accurate, and truly charitable explanation!
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SalesianSDB
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According to Fr. Benedict Groeschel, whom I consider a pretty good source, we can pray with people of other faiths that can accept the Lord’s prayer. According to Fr. Groeschel this would mean Protestants, Jews and Muslims.
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