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fakename
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Is it absolutely necessary that the rich pay their fair share tax-wise?
Just wondering, if this is a magisterial issue or if it is not.
Just wondering, if this is a magisterial issue or if it is not.
If it is not in the “CCC 2nd Ed”, it is not a teaching of the Magisterium.Is it absolutely necessary that the rich pay their fair share tax-wise?
Just wondering, if this is a magisterial issue or if it is not.
I don’t know if it’s a magisterial issue, but if you want to adequately fund government as we know it in the U.S. we’ll have to have a tax hike on the wealthy. Of course, we could always just become a banana republic, then we won’t have to do that. But if I’m going to live in a banana republic, then I’m going to need warmer weather than where I live now, specifically, in a place where bananas grow.Is it absolutely necessary that the rich pay their fair share tax-wise?
Just wondering, if this is a magisterial issue or if it is not.
No it is not a magesterial issue. What makes you think it is?Is it absolutely necessary that the rich pay their fair share tax-wise?
Just wondering, if this is a magisterial issue or if it is not.
Yes, I would think so. Of course, the debate is about how much constitutes a fair share.
For example, the rich pay 15% on capital gains. So do the middle class. So do the poor. The rich, of course, are more apt to have capital gains than the others. Do we increase the tax on capital gains for everyone? (And in the process discourage capital investment?) Or do we tax capital gains at different amounts depending on the total amount received?
Do we tax interest income at the same rate as wages and salaries? A widow living on interest income will be adversely affected by a higher tax rate, a rich person not so much.
But actually, I don’t think that it is a magisterial issue. Tax rates seldom are.
And of course there is also the matter of defining both “fair” and “rich.”
I understand your position. It seems though, that restricting the lower cap-gains rate to those who actually invest in new or existing businesses would mainly benefit venture capitalists, who are already rich. The idea has merit, but it would sure lead to more complaints from the occupy wall street crowd. Also, it would deny the lower tax rate to a lot of middle class people who use 401-K’s and pension plans to accumulate retirement savings.2.) With regards to the Long-term capital gain tax rate (which also applies to qualified dividends-dividends from a company like Microsoft) --remember Short-term capital gains are taxed at ordinary income tax rates as they do not qualify for the reduced 15% rate–would someone explain to me how the vast majority of LT Capital Gains encourage meaningful capital investment and job creation. I am all for giving Bob a low tax rate when he takes his money, starts a small business, grows it, employees people and later sell it at a gain. I have no problem rewarding the risk he took with a lower capital gains rate. However, the vast majority of those claiming a reduced rate on long-term capital gains are people who are simply trading paper. When I purchase IBM stock from someone–they’re selling me a piece of paper. IBM is not getting any money to grow their business–they got that long ago when they originally issued the stock. When I in turn sell the IBM stock to someone else at a profit and take those proceeds and now by Microsoft stock–I get a reduced tax rate–if I held the IBM stock 12 mo.'s. I’ve done nothing for the economy–except generate a commission for a stock broker. I just swapped some paper. I’ve really done nothing to further the stated purpose of the reduced capital gains tax rate. We need to rethink what kind of investments qualify for this reduced rate and what Long-term really means.
- Interest is taxed at the same rate as other ordinary income (including wages). There are basically two exceptions: a.) Municipal Bond interest (not taxed by the federal government or the state issuing the bond–i.e. California will tax interest paid on Oregon muni bonds.) and b.) Treasury Interest which is not taxed by the states–though it is tax by the federal government.
Lets restrict the reduced rate to those who actually take there capital and start a new business, invest in a start up business, or provide additional capital to an existing company to help it expand or stay in business, but lets not give it to people who simply swap existing paper shares.
That’s my two cents.
Mark
I got off on a tangent so don’t take anything below personally as a response to anything you said specifically., But… as the previous poster alluded to, what constitutes a fair share? From this article:
The latest data show that a big portion of the federal income tax burden is shouldered by a small group of the very richest Americans. The wealthiest 1 percent of the population earn 19 percent of the income but pay 37 percent of the income tax. The top 10 percent pay 68 percent of the tab. Meanwhile, the bottom 50 percent—those below the median income level—now earn 13 percent of the income but pay just 3 percent of the taxes. These are proportions of the income tax alone and don’t include payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare.
…
There’s no doubt that the share of total income earned by the wealthy has increased steadily over the past 25 years. Since 1980, the share of income earned by the richest 1 percent has more than doubled, from 9 percent to 19 percent. The share of the income going to the poorest income quintile has declined. Income disparities, in absolute dollars, have grown substantially. What is significant is that for the top 5 percent and 10 percent of earners, the ratio of taxes paid compared with income earned has risen. For example, in 1980, the top 10 percent earned 32 percent of the income and paid 44 percent of the taxes—a ratio of 1.4. In 2004, this group earned more of the income (44 percent) but paid a lot more of the taxes (68 percent)—a ratio of 1.6. In other words, progressivity—in terms of share of total taxes paid—has risen.
…
I’m not sure I agree. None of the businesses we work with has received any money from a venture capitalist. They started out of someones home, or someone took their life savings and started a new business or bought a business or franchise, or they borrowed money from a bank to do the same. I think it would benefit many small mom and pop businesses. I am not sure the occupy wall street crowd would object to this.I understand your position. It seems though, that restricting the lower cap-gains rate to those who actually invest in new or existing businesses would mainly benefit venture capitalists, who are already rich. The idea has merit, but it would sure lead to more complaints from the occupy wall street crowd. Also, it would deny the lower tax rate to a lot of middle class people who use 401-K’s and pension plans to accumulate retirement savings.
As for interest, I think maybe it should not be taxed at all. I know some older widows who really are dependent on this income. When the Fed reduces rates on savings from 4% to 1%, their income is cut by 75%.
I have looked at the IRS data on numbers of tax returns and amounts paid for the quintiles and found, surprise! surprise!, those above median income pay ALL the income taxes. The inescapable conclusion is that according to the government, these are what constitute “the rich”.
What years data are you looking at? I see no year in which this is true. Virtually all–I’ll give you that but not all. As of 2009 97.3% but not 100%. Your conclusion seems far from inescapable.
“Fair” is highly subjective, and each person has a different definition. Absolutely. It implies strongly that they are not paying all of their fair share. It also ignores the fact that the rich are powerful because of their wealth and will use their power to escape high taxes. When Microsoft was just getting really big, they did no lobbying, and suddenly became the subject of an anti-trust suit by the government. The following year, they learned their lesson and lobbied. Conclusion: high taxes are an incentive to lobby.
Could you explain how this is the conclusion from the Microsoft story? An anti-trust suit has nothing to do with taxation. I could understand the conclusion being: Wanting to force all competitiors out of business by blackmailing computer manufactures is an incentive to lobby–the taxes thing just seems like a non sequitur.
The rich can also pass the added taxes to those of us lower on the economic pyramid. We will then find the average taxpayer will have his taxes go up. If you doubt this, all you need do is compare the original 1916 tax tables with one from the '60s and ask how the average Joe got into the 48% tax bracket. Could you elaborate what you mean? And I’m currious about your definition for “the average Joe” the 48% tax bracket covered 1965-1969 (in the 60’s) in order to get into that bracket you needed taxable income of $40-44,000 and if you adjust that for inflation that’s in the range of $244-313,000 depending on the year. That’s a far cry from the “average Joe”. In actuality the average Joe if his family made the medium income for 1968 of $8,630 (and thats before allowable deductions and exemptions) would have paid tax at graduated rates ranging from 14% to a max of 22%.
Why did you chose 1916 (its not the orginal – I beleive you want 1913 for that) was it because it had a relatively low top rate of 15%? Of course the following year, 1917, that top rate jumped to 67%. That top rate bounced around quite a bit in early years. But lets work with 1916. Couldn’t quickly find the median income for 1916 but I did find the average salary for the decade was $750 a year. The personal exemption for a single person was $3,000 and for a married couple $4,000. So you needed to make more than that in order to be subject to income tax in 1916 at a rate of 2%. Taxable incomes above $20,000 were subject to an additional tax. The average Joe would have paid no income tax.
So first the average Joe did not get into a 48% tax bracket in the 1960’s and I am unclear how this proves the rich will pass their taxes on to us? This looks more like the government expanding it’s tax base i.e. lowering the point at which your income is subject to taxation. I see nothing that indicates the tax rates on the rich were reduced as this expansion of the tax base took place–thereby shifting the tax burden–can you elaborate?
If the government actually succeeds in confiscating more of their wealth, there will be less for them to provide capital to create/expand business. IOW, you can’t punish the rich and wonder where the jobs went. We can debate this–how many of the rich actually invest their money in businesses and provide capital to them. Many do, but many also just invest in paper–in things like IBM,Walmart and Microsoft stock. This provides no capital to those companies. Many businesses start in the garages, basements, and homes of people who are not “rich” and these people grow their businesses slowly and hopefully create jobs and become rich along the way. Finally taxes are not “punishment”. The rich benefit most from the taxes–they transport their products on our highways, they have a stable society in which to sell their goods and/or ply their trade, they have a relatively educated workforce, they have a society that protects their wealth from theft, they make much greater use of our legal system, they register trademarks and patents and have those protected, and one could go on–for this they pay taxes. That is hardly punishment.
Thank you. The difference between “virtually all” and “all” [2.7%] is not that significant in my mind, so my conclusion seems reasonable to me.… Virtually all–I’ll give you that but not all. As of 2009 97.3% but not 100%.
Of course that’s one of the incentives for the business, but the goal of the politician is to raise money for re-election.Could you explain how this is the conclusion from the Microsoft story? An anti-trust suit has nothing to do with taxation. I could understand the conclusion being: Wanting to force all competitiors out of business by blackmailing computer manufactures is an incentive to lobby–the taxes thing just seems like a non sequitur.
Could you elaborate what you mean? And I’m currious about your definition for “the average Joe” the 48% tax bracket covered 1965-1969 (in the 60’s) in order to get into that bracket you needed taxable income of $40-44,000 and if you adjust that for inflation that’s in the range of $244-313,000 depending on the year. That’s a far cry from the “average Joe”. In actuality the average Joe if his family made the medium income for 1968 of $8,630 (and thats before allowable deductions and exemptions) would have paid tax at graduated rates ranging from 14% to a max of 22%.
My mistake. From memory, I meant 1913, the first year of the income tax. Besides 1913, the earliest tax schedule I have is for 1969. While the average Joe would have paid nothing in 1913, his rate went up significantly between then and the 1960s, which is my whole point.Why did you chose 1916 (its not the orginal – I beleive you want 1913 for that) was it because it had a relatively low top rate of 15%? Of course the following year, 1917, that top rate jumped to 67%. That top rate bounced around quite a bit in early years. But lets work with 1916. Couldn’t quickly find the median income for 1916 but I did find the average salary for the decade was $750 a year. The personal exemption for a single person was $3,000 and for a married couple $4,000. So you needed to make more than that in order to be subject to income tax in 1916 at a rate of 2%. Taxable incomes above $20,000 were subject to an additional tax. The average Joe would have paid no income tax.
I included state income taxes in my figure. As I said about business above, if the rich escape taxes, who makes up the difference?So first the average Joe did not get into a 48% tax bracket in the 1960’s and I am unclear how this proves the rich will pass their taxes on to us? This looks more like the government expanding it’s tax base i.e. lowering the point at which your income is subject to taxation. I see nothing that indicates the tax rates on the rich were reduced as this expansion of the tax base took place–thereby shifting the tax burden–can you elaborate?
I think this is a mistaken idea. Stocks are not just pieces of “paper” any more than the deed to your house is just a piece of paper. I think you are looking at only the visible. Companies do care what their shares are selling for because a lot of them own their own shares, plus a higher price per share allows a company to borrow more and expand than shares that a lower in price. No?We can debate this–how many of the rich actually invest their money in businesses and provide capital to them. Many do, but many also just invest in paper–in things like IBM,Walmart and Microsoft stock.
Then why are we discussing the topic of this thread instead of something like, “Should we raise taxes on everyone to balance the budget?” About 20 years ago, the *Wall Street Journal *carried an article [wish I’d kept a copy] about a study that showed that the average person is willing to hurt even himself just to “stick it” to the rich. It seems to me there is a lot of envy and more than a little psychology going on in the way taxes are levied.Finally taxes are not “punishment”.
I have a better example for you on this front. Here in Illinois we have democratic governor and legislators that like to paint themselves as realy populist men of the regular guys. They recently jacked up taxes in this state by 66% (and still can’t balance the budget). They made a big deal about how the rich and the corporations were going to be paying their fair share.If businesses successfully lobby to get their effective taxes lowered, who makes up the difference? It has to be those who cannot afford to lobby, IOW, those of us on the bottom who cannot pass them on.
To understand why, you have to think like a politician. Back about the time Californians were recalling Gov. Gray Davis because of the dire financial straits the state was in, the federal government offered $3 B to help them out. What did the legislature do? It retrieved $3 B in new spending plans that had been shelved due to lack of money before the offer.… They recently jacked up taxes in this state by 66% (and still can’t balance the budget). …
… They made a big deal about how the rich and the corporations were going to be paying their fair share.
But the reality is the opposite. The tax increases went through on everybody. But the enormous corporations with the deep pockets immediately lined up and started demanding exceptions or they would leave the state. And they are generally GETTING them. So the end result with the Democrats is exactly the same as what they accuse the republicans of: The well connected get the breaks, the tax increases only come for the middle class guys with no direct influence. Same reason so many working salarymen pay a higher tax rate than Warren Buffet. They get to pay at 15%. The guys working for a paycheck in a skilled field pay more. Makes zero sense.
Maybe someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but Buffett takes a little over 100,000 in actual dollars as a salary; he takes over $1M in stocks which he sells and then qualifies for the capital gains rate of 15%.… Same reason so many working salarymen pay a higher tax rate than Warren Buffet. They get to pay at 15%. The guys working for a paycheck in a skilled field pay more. Makes zero sense.