Is it absolutely necessary that the rich pay their fair share tax-wise?

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The money used to pay “Property taxes, gas taxes and utilities taxes” where to you get it from? If you get it from common earned income then it has already been taxed so anytime you mail that money back to the government as taxes it is clearly a double taxed source. If this occurs to a business they can deduct the later tax to prevent the double tax but not so for common wage earners.

FYI - It seems a couple of you struggle with the concept of a business as a free standing legal entity. If a business makes $100 and pays $40 in taxes that is not taxes paid by the owner. The owner is a separate legal entity and has a separate tax responsibility. This system is chosen by the owners and is not required by law.
Not really. If you use that standard any expense is taxed multiple times and yes that is literally true but different than the concept of double taxation when applied to various streams of income. You can say you are using after tax dollars to pay property taxes but there is a completely different concept between income taxes…paid because you EARN something and ‘fee’ taxes where you pay for a government service of some kind. Two different animals.

Also we as wage earners DO deduct taxes…don’t you deduct your property taxes and your state taxes (oh yeah you live in Texas no state tax right). So your theory that wage earners don’t get the same benefit as corporations isn’t true in all cases.

The concept “double taxation” refers to income taxed twice. The usual example is a corporate dividend where the company pays taxes on its earnings (first taxation) then distributes a dividend which is not tax deductible in most cases. The shareholder who receives the dividend then pays tax on it (second taxation). One point for the lower rates for such income is that it’s already been taxed once at the corporate level.

Similar concept when talking about someone who pays a foreign tax on foreign income then gets a credit or deduction for the taxes paid to that foreign government. The idea being that income shouldn’t be taxed twice.

Not sure why you want to split hairs on this or how it relates to the thread so please let me know.

Lisa
 
Not really. If you use that standard any expense is taxed multiple times and yes that is literally true but different than the concept of double taxation when applied to various streams of income. You can say you are using after tax dollars to pay property taxes but there is a completely different concept between income taxes…paid because you EARN something and ‘fee’ taxes where you pay for a government service of some kind. Two different animals.
Where are you getting this from you claimed to be a CPA in post #32. Earned income is general income derived from services, while Capital gains are generally from the sale of assets or asset use. Consumptions taxes are from purchases and when collected from a cash stream already taxed as earned income is double taxation. The math is real simple a guy works and earns a $1 (gross) so he is paid $0.57, and thus he can purchase up to $0.52 of goods and services because after the original $0.43 collection a second tax of $0.05 was collected. That is an effective tax rate of 48% !!
Also we as wage earners DO deduct taxes…don’t you deduct your property taxes and your state taxes (oh yeah you live in Texas no state tax right). So your theory that wage earners don’t get the same benefit as corporations isn’t true in all cases.
How about true in most cases?, I hope you understand this is the concept behind standard deductions?
The concept “double taxation” refers to income taxed twice. The usual example is a corporate dividend where the company pays taxes on its earnings (first taxation) then distributes a dividend which is not tax deductible in most cases. The shareholder who receives the dividend then pays tax on it (second taxation). One point for the lower rates for such income is that it’s already been taxed once at the corporate level.
That is actually false; it is commonly said but is actually false. The corporation is a separate legal entity and thus has a separate tax responsibility. The share holder is also a separate entity and thus has a separate tax liability. This is not required but chosen by the owners. It is not double taxation because it is separate legal entities. To help consider retained earnings which are taxed only once, so again the business owners decide. Not so for wage earners.
Similar concept when talking about someone who pays a foreign tax on foreign income then gets a credit or deduction for the taxes paid to that foreign government. The idea being that income shouldn’t be taxed twice.
Not sure why you want to split hairs on this or how it relates to the thread so please let me know.
The bigger issues are 1) taxing inflation 2) does the current capital gains rate provide a fair rate or not

Hope that explains it
 
Where are you getting this from you claimed to be a CPA in post #32. Earned income is general income derived from services, while Capital gains are generally from the sale of assets or asset use. Consumptions taxes are from purchases and when collected from a cash stream already taxed as earned income is double taxation. The math is real simple a guy works and earns a $1 (gross) so he is paid $0.57, and thus he can purchase up to $0.52 of goods and services because after the original $0.43 collection a second tax of $0.05 was collected. That is an effective tax rate of 48% !! How about true in most cases?, I hope you understand this is the concept behind standard deductions? That is actually false; it is commonly said but is actually false. The corporation is a separate legal entity and thus has a separate tax responsibility. The share holder is also a separate entity and thus has a separate tax liability. This is not required but chosen by the owners. It is not double taxation because it is separate legal entities. To help consider retained earnings which are taxed only once, so again the business owners decide. Not so for wage earners. The bigger issues are 1) taxing inflation 2) does the current capital gains rate provide a fair rate or not

Hope that explains it
No I find your post absolutely confusing. I never said earned income (wages/salaries) was the same as capital gains but that the concept of double taxation is a concept based on income taxes, not fee taxes. As to every dollar being taxed multiple times…OK and your point is? You could take your example out ad infinitem. So what? It has nothing to do with anything.

That the corporation and individual shareholder are two different entities is not relevant. The focus is on the stream of income and what happens to it as it is earned and distributed. Some income distributed is taxed twice and some is not although if you want to split hairs eternally we could say that every dollar has been taxed multiple times. The Europeans have a VAT tax that actually makes that calculation. We dont

Honestly please email me privately if you want to continue because I have no idea what you are talking about and how it applies to this thread.

Do you think the high income taxpayers pay their fair share?
Lisa
 
Mark rather than clip your entire post, I want to get back to the issue of this thread, whether the rich should pay their “fair share” of taxes. We will apparently disagree on this issue as I think they ARE paying more than their share in any way of measuring things.
I am not sure why you think I disagree with you. I have clearly stated in this thread that I think it is necessary that we all pay our fair shair. I am guessing we agree on that. Aside from that all I have tried to do is point out some facts to assertions that are made. I think people look at this or that figure and scream it’s not fair–without trying to look at the big picture–or all the facts. Obviously everyone is going to have a different idea regarding what’s fair–I’d just like them to do it after having considered a lot of data rather than sound bites from FOX or MSNBC or versions of those sound bites repackaged on these forums. That’s why I have not stated an opinion on what is a fair rate. I do favor some progressivity in taxes and I am not bothered by those who earn very little–not paying federal income tax. But as to a fair rate…??
Is it fair that the group earning 19% of the income pays 37% of the taxes? Or conversely is the bottom tier of taxpayers paying their ‘fair share’ when they pay only 3% of the taxes but have a substantially higher percent of the income? I don’t think so but that’s the way it is currently. The point being, I don’t think high income earners are not paying enough.
I think don’t think you can accurately answer that question based on this one set of data. When you consider taxes paid to all levels of government (federal, state and local) for 2009 you will find that the lowest 20% of earners (who average roughly $12,400 a year) paid 16%; the next 20% (those earning roughly $25,000 a year) paid 20.5%; the next 20% (those earning roughly $33,400 a year) 25.3%; and the next 20% ($66,000 yr) 28.5%; the next 10% ($100,000 yr) 30.2%. The top 1% pay 30.8%.

When you factor in state and local taxes also then you see that the top 20% earns roughly 59.1% of the income and pays 64.3% of all the taxes–a little more burden but not something wildly out of line with their share of the income.

In 1960 the ratio of CEO pay to factory workers pay was 42:1 in 2000 it was 531:1 and in 2007 it was 344:1.

From 1990 to 2005 CEO’s pay increased 300% (adjusted for inflation) while production workers gained 4.3%, and the purchasing power of the federal minimum wage declined 9.3% (factoring for inflation).

Since 1979 overall income has grown by 27%. 33% of those gains went to the top 1% and the bottom 60% made less–.95 for each $1 they earned in 1979.

Income disparity after peaking in 1929 dropped and remained fairly constant through the 40’s. 50"s, 60’s and 70’s only to start rising again in the 80’s peaking in 2007. And I haven’t even mentioned wealth disparity.

The wealthy by and large own and run the businesses in America. The middle and lower classes have by an large been left behind and have not shared in the profits generated by these businesses–in the form of meaningfully higher wages–in the very profits they helped to generate for the business owners. The deck has been stacked against the wage earner.

I don’t think these are the type of things that a democratic nation and capitalist society can accept without addressing. And when one discusses fairness I think these things and many more should be considered.

Lisa

Peace,
Mark
 
I am not sure why you think I disagree with you. I have clearly stated in this thread that I think it is necessary that we all pay our fair shair. I am guessing we agree on that. Aside from that all I have tried to do is point out some facts to assertions that are made. I think people look at this or that figure and scream it’s not fair–without trying to look at the big picture–or all the facts. Obviously everyone is going to have a different idea regarding what’s fair–I’d just like them to do it after having considered a lot of data rather than sound bites from FOX or MSNBC or versions of those sound bites repackaged on these forums. That’s why I have not stated an opinion on what is a fair rate. I do favor some progressivity in taxes and I am not bothered by those who earn very little–not paying federal income tax. But as to a fair rate…??

I think don’t think you can accurately answer that question based on this one set of data. When you consider taxes paid to all levels of government (federal, state and local) for 2009 you will find that the lowest 20% of earners (who average roughly $12,400 a year) paid 16%; the next 20% (those earning roughly $25,000 a year) paid 20.5%; the next 20% (those earning roughly $33,400 a year) 25.3%; and the next 20% ($66,000 yr) 28.5%; the next 10% ($100,000 yr) 30.2%. The top 1% pay 30.8%.

When you factor in state and local taxes also then you see that the top 20% earns roughly 59.1% of the income and pays 64.3% of all the taxes–a little more burden but not something wildly out of line with their share of the income.

In 1960 the ratio of CEO pay to factory workers pay was 42:1 in 2000 it was 531:1 and in 2007 it was 344:1.

From 1990 to 2005 CEO’s pay increased 300% (adjusted for inflation) while production workers gained 4.3%, and the purchasing power of the federal minimum wage declined 9.3% (factoring for inflation).

Since 1979 overall income has grown by 27%. 33% of those gains went to the top 1% and the bottom 60% made less–.95 for each $1 they earned in 1979.

Income disparity after peaking in 1929 dropped and remained fairly constant through the 40’s. 50"s, 60’s and 70’s only to start rising again in the 80’s peaking in 2007. And I haven’t even mentioned wealth disparity.

The wealthy by and large own and run the businesses in America. The middle and lower classes have by an large been left behind and have not shared in the profits generated by these businesses–in the form of meaningfully higher wages–in the very profits they helped to generate for the business owners. The deck has been stacked against the wage earner.

I don’t think these are the type of things that a democratic nation and capitalist society can accept without addressing. And when one discusses fairness I think these things and many more should be considered.

Lisa
Peace,
Mark

A couple of thoughts. I think the high income taxpayers pay a fair share of taxes. It seems like you don’t.

With respect to comparing the total burden, I don’t think that’s applicable to this issue because people have a choice where they live and work and thus some control over the tax burden they are willing to pay and the services they receive in that locale. Some states like California have extremely high sales, property, and income taxes whereas Texas has a lower burden. Further, presumably some of the local taxes are returned in direct services so for example a state with high property taxes spends more on schools or law enforcement. (Not to argue more money means better schools but just pointing out the difference). We don’t have a choice to pay income taxes to the federal government other than moving out of the country. So in the interest of comparing apples and apples, I just don’t think this is applicable.

When people start talking “income disparity” it makes me extremely nervous about a Lefist agenda and you can probably tell that makes my hair stand up. What Leftists claim is that we can have equality of RESULTS (which will never happen) rather than focusing on equality of opportunities which to some extent we can control. We will never be able to control disparity of intelligence, talent or aptitude. Is it fair that LeBron James earns millions dribbling a basketball? Should he make XYZ% more than the guy that sweeps the locker room? Is it fair that Lady Gaga spews what I think is mostly filth (although she is very talented) and makes millions while our wonderful choir director who has a beautiful voice makes $30K a year? It’s so funny that Lefists are always talking “fair” when it comes to business but never when it refers to sports, entertainment, or artistic endeavors.

I think if you look at businesses, you will find that most successful business owners are self made and did not inherit the business. The majority are not like Paris Hilton for example…oh gosh is it fair that vapid and self absorbed creature was born with a silver spoon in her mouth? See where I am going with this?

We’ll never all agree on what is a fair percentage but maybe we can agree more on a fair system. I’m all for consumption taxes although it would be a painful transition. But between the tangled revenue code, the carve outs for special interest groups and the amount of fraud, our current system is never going to be fair. A consumption tax allows one to choose whether to engage in a taxable transaction. If you’re Mr Gotrocks you can buy one more Mercedes and pay the tax…or not. It gets the underground economy and gets tax revenue out of those flying below the radar, illegals and under the table transactions. I like it and think it’s a lot more fair than what we have now.

LIsa
 
Peace,
Mark
A couple of thoughts. I think the high income taxpayers pay a fair share of taxes. It seems like you don’t.

With respect to comparing the total burden, I don’t think that’s applicable to this issue because people have a choice where they live and work and thus some control over the tax burden they are willing to pay and the services they receive in that locale. Some states like California have extremely high sales, property, and income taxes whereas Texas has a lower burden. Further, presumably some of the local taxes are returned in direct services so for example a state with high property taxes spends more on schools or law enforcement. (Not to argue more money means better schools but just pointing out the difference). We don’t have a choice to pay income taxes to the federal government other than moving out of the country. So in the interest of comparing apples and apples, I just don’t think this is applicable.

When people start talking “income disparity” it makes me extremely nervous about a Lefist agenda and you can probably tell that makes my hair stand up. What Leftists claim is that we can have equality of RESULTS (which will never happen) rather than focusing on equality of opportunities which to some extent we can control. We will never be able to control disparity of intelligence, talent or aptitude. Is it fair that LeBron James earns millions dribbling a basketball? Should he make XYZ% more than the guy that sweeps the locker room? Is it fair that Lady Gaga spews what I think is mostly filth (although she is very talented) and makes millions while our wonderful choir director who has a beautiful voice makes $30K a year? It’s so funny that Lefists are always talking “fair” when it comes to business but never when it refers to sports, entertainment, or artistic endeavors.

I think if you look at businesses, you will find that most successful business owners are self made and did not inherit the business. The majority are not like Paris Hilton for example…oh gosh is it fair that vapid and self absorbed creature was born with a silver spoon in her mouth? See where I am going with this?

We’ll never all agree on what is a fair percentage but maybe we can agree more on a fair system. I’m all for consumption taxes although it would be a painful transition. But between the tangled revenue code, the carve outs for special interest groups and the amount of fraud, our current system is never going to be fair. A consumption tax allows one to choose whether to engage in a taxable transaction. If you’re Mr Gotrocks you can buy one more Mercedes and pay the tax…or not. It gets the underground economy and gets tax revenue out of those flying below the radar, illegals and under the table transactions. I like it and think it’s a lot more fair than what we have now.

LIsa

I guess in my mind tax burden is tax burden. We get services back from the federal government too–including money for schools. So I guess I don’t buy your argument.

I guess I prefer refain from calling people “leftist” and claiming agenda’s. Where does this come from? We will always have an income disparity–the question is for 40 years it was stable ( and these were a pretty good 40 yrs) and then the disparity started growing. Obviously something changed. What? Is this continuing increase in income disparity good for our nation? You object to these questions? Who’s asking for equality of results? Is it wrong to point out that over the last 30 years business owners and CEO’s have taken virtually all the business profits and not shared them with the rank and file worker who helped to create them? Of course you can find exceptions–but I am simply pointing out the general trend. Does your concern for fairness only extend one way–or only to taxes (and then only federal income taxes) for one group of wealthy individuals? I kind of worry when someone says I want to give CEO’s and business owners the power to take all the profits their workers earn for them, give them the power to fire for no cause, I want them to pay minimal tax and I want the federal government to provide no safety net for their workers. Heck lets bring back the company store. Welcome to the Banana Republic of the United States. Now I realize that’s not really what you said–but I never asked for equality of results either. I simply asked that people consider a lot of data not sound bites whether conservative or liberal.

One should be able to ask questions about economic trends–especially ones that seem harmful to the nation–without being branded a leftist and accussed of desiring equality of outcome. Consumption tax–I am guessing that should wait for another thread.

It should be noted that LeBron James is/was part of a union–that just went through a pretty nasty fight with business owners over the share of revenue the players would get. In that role they have more in common with the factory worker than the business owner.

Peace,
Mark
 
I guess in my mind tax burden is tax burden. We get services back from the federal government too–including money for schools. So I guess I don’t buy your argument.

I guess I prefer refain from calling people “leftist” and claiming agenda’s. Where does this come from? We will always have an income disparity–the question is for 40 years it was stable ( and these were a pretty good 40 yrs) and then the disparity started growing. Obviously something changed. What? Is this continuing increase in income disparity good for our nation? You object to these questions? Who’s asking for equality of results? Is it wrong to point out that over the last 30 years business owners and CEO’s have taken virtually all the business profits and not shared them with the rank and file worker who helped to create them? Of course you can find exceptions–but I am simply pointing out the general trend. Does your concern for fairness only extend one way–or only to taxes (and then only federal income taxes) for one group of wealthy individuals? I kind of worry when someone says I want to give CEO’s and business owners the power to take all the profits their workers earn for them, give them the power to fire for no cause, I want them to pay minimal tax and I want the federal government to provide no safety net for their workers. Heck lets bring back the company store. Welcome to the Banana Republic of the United States. Now I realize that’s not really what you said–but I never asked for equality of results either. I simply asked that people consider a lot of data not sound bites whether conservative or liberal.

One should be able to ask questions about economic trends–especially ones that seem harmful to the nation–without being branded a leftist and accussed of desiring equality of outcome. Consumption tax–I am guessing that should wait for another thread.

It should be noted that LeBron James is/was part of a union–that just went through a pretty nasty fight with business owners over the share of revenue the players would get. In that role they have more in common with the factory worker than the business owner.

Peace,
Mark
Mark first I didn’t want you to interpret my comments about Leftist agendas as a personal attack but that the word “fair” and “equality” are more characteristic of the French Revolution than our own. We are granted life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. We aren’t guarantied the right to catch it. In contrast the French Revolution was liberty, brotherhood and equality. I think those politicians who focus so much on equality need to move to France 🙂

I’m not particularly happy about huge CEO salaries and bonues, particularly when we the taxpayers are covering the tab, but they are a result of contracts. No one held a gun to someone’s head or to the Board’s collective head and forced them to pay out such outrageous sums. Unfortunately many of these contracts were entered into during more prosperous times and now we are facing the music. I can only say live and learn. In a free market economy (which I wish we had but don’t) people are able to offer their skills, talents and experience and companies are free to accept them or not. I just don’t think there is some vast conspiracy behind what I agree seem to be ridiculous levels of compensation…particularly when you have a failing enterprise like Freddy and Fanny. Would LOVE to rip the $$$ out of Franklin Raines and Jamie Goerlich’s corrupt paws and give to people losing their homes but hey a deal is a deal.

Further how can you compare the pay of one CEO of a huge corporation with the pay of the tens of thousands of lower level employees and say it’s not “fair.” There is only ONE person who qualifies to be CEO of that company but many thousands who can do the lower skilled jobs. Scarcity whether we are talking about gemstones, people, or products means the price goes up.

Again if it’s not fair that the CEO of Walmart makes XYZ% more than the greeters, then is it fair that LeBron with or without his union, makes more than the towel boy? Lady Gaga makes more than her roadies. Brad and Angie’s child care staff probably don’t make as much as Brad and Angie. Life isn’t fair. My mom told me that when I was about nine years old and she was right.

I do think that the tax code among other government influenced strategies can help level the playing field. But I do not think extracting by force money that one person earns to give it to whomever Lady and Lord Bountiful aka Social Services, deems worthy. We need to avoid stirring up envy and resentment and instead focus on inspiring people to greater achievements.

Lisa
 
No I find your post absolutely confusing. I never said earned income (wages/salaries) was the same as capital gains but that the concept of double taxation is a concept based on income taxes, not fee taxes. As to every dollar being taxed multiple times…OK and your point is? You could take your example out ad infinitem. So what? It has nothing to do with anything.
It would seem you are supporting an exception for one group? Why exclude one group, from a problem all have?
That the corporation and individual shareholder are two different entities is not relevant. The focus is on the stream of income and what happens to it as it is earned and distributed. Some income distributed is taxed twice and some is not although if you want to split hairs eternally we could say that every dollar has been taxed multiple times.
“we could say that every dollar has been taxed multiple times” is at conflict with “Some income distributed is taxed twice and some is not” which makes little sense as earlier post show double taxiation actually occurs to all earned incomes, but does not occur to dividends because dividends are only taxed once by the government from the shareholder, the profits of the business are not required to be dividends, they can be retained earning or earned income. It is the owners of the business who decide to pay business taxes on profit and dividends in return for the legal protection provided by that method.
The Europeans have a VAT tax that actually makes that calculation. We dont
Honestly please email me privately if you want to continue because I have no idea what you are talking about and how it applies to this thread.
**Do you think the high income taxpayers pay their fair share? **
Lisa
the question is bad, the better version is “Why do millions of people believe many of the rich do not pay their fair share?” either it is real or a better education is needed. I would bet the answer is both, some of the wealthy don’t pay a reasonable share and others are paying through unknown sources.

FYI - From 2003 to 2008, for example, Los Angeles Dodgers owner and real estate developer Frank H. McCourt Jr. paid no federal or state regular income taxes, as stated in court records dug up by the Los Angeles Times. Developers such as McCourt, according to a declaration in his divorce proceeding, “typically fund their lifestyle through lines of credit and loan proceeds secured by their assets while paying little or no personal income taxes.” A spokesman for McCourt said he availed himself of a tax code provision at the time that permitted purchasers of sports franchises to defer income taxes.
money.msn.com/taxes/latest.aspx?post=26d490bd-7317-4f93-8b43-e1da1151ea5f
 
It would seem you are supporting an exception for one group? Why exclude one group, from a problem all have?
I have no idea what you are talking about here. Exception for one group? Please enlighten me here.
“we could say that every dollar has been taxed multiple times” is at conflict with “Some income distributed is taxed twice and some is not” which makes little sense as earlier post show double taxiation actually occurs to all earned incomes, but does not occur to dividends because dividends are only taxed once by the government from the shareholder, the profits of the business are not required to be dividends, they can be retained earning or earned income. It is the owners of the business who decide to pay business taxes on profit and dividends in return for the legal protection provided by that method.
No, in the hair splitting you were engaged in saying the dollar one uses to pay property taxes is “taxed twice” could be applied to use of that dollar, not just payment of taxes. We use after tax dollars to either invest or pay expenses. That dollar we received was taxed once when we received it. If we take that dollar and pay a bill that’s the end of the line because we get no taxable return for that dollar. If that dollar was invested and paid a dividend, then the dividend represents income that’s taxed twice. The dollar SPENT provides no return that has the potential to be taxed. Completely different animals.

As to the corporation not paying dividends, be aware that retaining earnings has its own set of problems, not to mention the reality that investors will be reluctant to invest in a company that does not pay a dividend when there are others that DO pay a dividend. The investor has risked his money for no return in such case and imagine the drop in the market when investors flee a stock. Do we really want that to happen in our economy? In reality dividends are a cost of doing business but they are not deductible.

You will find in tax law there is usually a tit for tat exchange. A deduction to one party equals income to the other party and vice versa. My company pays me a salary. They deduct that salary and I pay taxes on it. Your theory regarding dividends would suggest my company pay me a salary, not be able to deduct it and yet I’d still be taxed. Not taxing dividends would make sense but frankly we need the money. But we have a reduced rate on dividends to somewhat mitigate the double taxation aspects.
Code:
the question is bad, the better version is "Why do millions of people believe many of the rich do not pay their fair share?"  either it is real or a better education is needed.  I would bet the answer is both, some of the wealthy don't pay a reasonable share and others are paying through unknown sources.
FYI - From 2003 to 2008, for example, Los Angeles Dodgers owner and real estate developer Frank H. McCourt Jr. paid no federal or state regular income taxes, as stated in court records dug up by the Los Angeles Times. Developers such as McCourt, according to a declaration in his divorce proceeding, “typically fund their lifestyle through lines of credit and loan proceeds secured by their assets while paying little or no personal income taxes.” A spokesman for McCourt said he availed himself of a tax code provision at the time that permitted purchasers of sports franchises to defer income taxes.
money.msn.com/taxes/latest.aspx?post=26d490bd-7317-4f93-8b43-e1da1151ea5f
These are the stories that make headlines and frankly support what many tax reform oriented politicians are suggesting; lower the rates, remove the bennies for certain industries and taxpayers who have the ability to lobby Congress and simpify the Code. It is meddling politicians and their supporters who pervert the intention of income taxation. How about all the credits for Obama’s pet projects like solar energy or electric cars? I say get rid of the subsidies and special tax breaks for specific industries and types of taxpayer. This is one of the things Reagan did with his tax plan. Rates reduced but the tax shelters either disappeared completely or at least were substantially reduced. But like welfare reform, as time has gone on we’ve moved rates up the dial while still carving out bennies for our buddies.

Lisa
 
I have no idea what you are talking about here. Exception for one group? Please enlighten me here.

No, in the hair splitting you were engaged in saying the dollar one uses to pay property taxes is “taxed twice” could be applied to use of that dollar, not just payment of taxes. We use after tax dollars to either invest or pay expenses. That dollar we received was taxed once when we received it. If we take that dollar and pay a bill that’s the end of the line because we get no taxable return for that dollar. If that dollar was invested and paid a dividend, then the dividend represents income that’s taxed twice. The dollar SPENT provides no return that has the potential to be taxed. Completely different animals.

As to the corporation not paying dividends, be aware that retaining earnings has its own set of problems, not to mention the reality that investors will be reluctant to invest in a company that does not pay a dividend when there are others that DO pay a dividend. The investor has risked his money for no return in such case and imagine the drop in the market when investors flee a stock. Do we really want that to happen in our economy? In reality dividends are a cost of doing business but they are not deductible.

You will find in tax law there is usually a tit for tat exchange. A deduction to one party equals income to the other party and vice versa. My company pays me a salary. They deduct that salary and I pay taxes on it. Your theory regarding dividends would suggest my company pay me a salary, not be able to deduct it and yet I’d still be taxed. Not taxing dividends would make sense but frankly we need the money. But we have a reduced rate on dividends to somewhat mitigate the double taxation aspects.

These are the stories that make headlines and frankly support what many tax reform oriented politicians are suggesting; lower the rates, remove the bennies for certain industries and taxpayers who have the ability to lobby Congress and simpify the Code. It is meddling politicians and their supporters who pervert the intention of income taxation. How about all the credits for Obama’s pet projects like solar energy or electric cars? I say get rid of the subsidies and special tax breaks for specific industries and types of taxpayer. This is one of the things Reagan did with his tax plan. Rates reduced but the tax shelters either disappeared completely or at least were substantially reduced. But like welfare reform, as time has gone on we’ve moved rates up the dial while still carving out bennies for our buddies.

Lisa
It is mind boggling a CPA struggles to understand legal entities or falsely thinks dividends drive stock prices, I’m truly astounded. The company that pays you is not you(!) it is a different legal entity. You and the company can be combined that is a sole proprietorship. Most corporations retain most earnings. Share holders are not taxed on retained earnings until they realize these dollars through the sale of shares. Thus it is a capital gain not an earned income. Corporate profits are the tax liability of the corporation that is 100% separate from any tax liability of a shareholder. "Double taxed” sounds good but simply is not true when two different legal entities are paying the tax. The inflation aspect of capital gains is very real.
 
It is mind boggling a CPA struggles to understand legal entities or falsely thinks dividends drive stock prices, I’m truly astounded. The company that pays you is not you(!) it is a different legal entity. You and the company can be combined that is a sole proprietorship. Most corporations retain most earnings. Share holders are not taxed on retained earnings until they realize these dollars through the sale of shares. Thus it is a capital gain not an earned income. Corporate profits are the tax liability of the corporation that is 100% separate from any tax liability of a shareholder. "Double taxed” sounds good but simply is not true when two different legal entities are paying the tax. The inflation aspect of capital gains is very real.
Nothing you said here makes the slightest bit of sense nor is it true.
**That I and my employer are two different entities has nothing to do with anything being discussed.

Most corporations do NOT retain most earnings.

Shareholders are NOT taxed on the corporation’s retained earnings. As you said the corporation pays any taxes that it incurs. The shareholders pay taxes only on dividends received from the ownership of shares or the capital gains upon sale.

The subject is the money, not the entities. Double taxation refers to the dollars being taxed twice not the entities.**

I would love to know your qualifications for making such statements but better yet let’s get back to the actual thread.

Are you a Paulinista? You sound like one.
Lisa
 
Mark first I didn’t want you to interpret my comments about Leftist agendas as a personal attack but that the word “fair” and “equality” are more characteristic of the French Revolution than our own. We are granted life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. We aren’t guarantied the right to catch it. In contrast the French Revolution was liberty, brotherhood and equality. I think those politicians who focus so much on equality need to move to France 🙂

I’m not particularly happy about huge CEO salaries and bonues, particularly when we the taxpayers are covering the tab, but they are a result of contracts. No one held a gun to someone’s head or to the Board’s collective head and forced them to pay out such outrageous sums. Unfortunately many of these contracts were entered into during more prosperous times and now we are facing the music. I can only say live and learn. In a free market economy (which I wish we had but don’t) people are able to offer their skills, talents and experience and companies are free to accept them or not.

Further how can you compare the pay of one CEO of a huge corporation with the pay of the tens of thousands of lower level employees and say it’s not “fair.” There is only ONE person who qualifies to be CEO of that company but many thousands who can do the lower skilled jobs.

Again if it’s not fair that the CEO of Walmart makes XYZ% more than the greeters, then is it fair that LeBron with or without his union, makes more than the towel boy? Lady Gaga makes more than her roadies. Life isn’t fair. My mom told me that when I was about nine years old and she was right.

I do think that the tax code among other government influenced strategies can help level the playing field. But I do not think extracting by force money that one person earns to give it to whomever Lady and Lord Bountiful aka Social Services, deems worthy. We need to avoid stirring up envy and resentment and instead focus on inspiring people to greater achievements.

Lisa
Lisa,

It seems to me that you are equating fair with equal? The words are not synonymous. Fairness does not mean we need equal results. I am tired of every time someone raises the issue of “fairness” they are accused of wanting equality of results–which is simply not true. When you don’t let someone vote because they don’t own property or because they are a woman–that’s not fair–and we don’t have equality in our pursuit of happiness–the rule makers stacked the deck against them and for themselves–that’s not fair and its got nothing to do with outcomes but with equality of opportunity.

But those CEO contracts are often not negotiated in good faith–there is quid pro quo going on–take a look at the make up of those “independent” compensation boards. I never compared the salary of a CEO with the lower level employee (in the way you imply) and said that it is not fair that a CEO makes more–are you actually reading what I write?–what I pointed out was that in 1960 the ratio of CEO pay to factory worker pay was 42:1 and that in 2007 it was 344:1 (which is down from its 2000 high). Are the CEO’s today really worth that much more than they were in 1960? Or is someone being taken advantage of? Has something changed? What? Is it something we should be concerned about? If nothing else those ratio’s should at least raise a question in peoples minds. It is not a question of is the CEO worth more than a janitor–of course he is–the question is how much more–and is he really worth that much more in 2007 than he was in 1960? Or have we just decided not to pay lower skilled workers like we used to preferring instead to pay it all to CEO’s and owners.

No one has ever said its not fair that the CEO of Walmart makes more than a greeter. Please stop equating fairness with equality of outcomes. No one argues that we should all make the same regardless of our job. What some argue is that it is unfair that line workers who contribute to a companies profits–have not shared, in any meaningful way, in those profits over the last 30 years and that instead they have gone to the CEO’s and owners. That is a change and one that may have nothing to do with the tax code.

And since you brought it up (I resisted using the phrase in an earlier post :)) I agree that your mother was right–lifes not fair–so lets stop all this whining about the tax structure not being fair.

As a final comment I do find it funny–that people spend far more time whining about “social services” and how unfair it is to give a few subsistence dollars to the poor in our society–and yet these same people spend very little time complaining about all the money taken and restributed in the form of tax breaks to large companies. Should taxpayers still be subsidizing oil companies when they have record profits? I don’t mind my tax dollars subsidizing someone getting their first small home (I think that’s good for America in general) but I don’t like subsidizing someone who can afford a million dollar mortgage–but no one seems to screams about that. I think the social safety net is good in general (yes it can be abused but so can everything). I don’t want a country that looks like…I don’t want people living by the dump waiting for the next load of garbage, I don’t want the poor starving in the street, etc. Not everyone can work as a rocket scientist. That someone only has the capacity to work as a garbage man or a store clerk–doesn’t mean they should be disqualified from earning a living wage and if our businesses won’t pay one–I am not opposed to my tax dollars helping that guy out. That’s a far cry from equality of outcome and it’s a far cry from socialism or communism–so please lets not throw out those baseless charges. If you throw them out please support with examples of the call for the abolition of private property or government ownership of the means of production.

Peace,
Mark
 
Lisa,

It seems to me that you are equating fair with equal?

But those CEO contracts are often not negotiated in good faith–there is quid pro quo going on–take a look at the make up of those “independent” compensation boards. I never compared the salary of a CEO with the lower level employee (in the way you imply) and said that it is not fair that a CEO makes more–are you actually reading what I write?–what I pointed out was that in 1960 the ratio of CEO pay to factory worker pay was 42:1 and that in 2007 it was 344:1 (which is down from its 2000 high). Are the CEO’s today really worth that much more than they were in 1960?

No one has ever said its not fair that the CEO of Walmart makes more than a greeter. Please stop equating fairness with equality of outcomes. No one argues that we should all make the same regardless of our job.

And since you brought it up (I resisted using the phrase in an earlier post :)) I agree that your mother was right–lifes not fair–so lets stop all this whining about the tax structure not being fair.

As a final comment I do find it funny–that people spend far more time whining about “social services” and how unfair it is to give a few subsistence dollars to the poor in our society–and yet these same people spend very little time complaining about all the money taken and restributed in the form of tax breaks to large companies.
I don’t want the poor starving in the street, etc. Not everyone can work as a rocket scientist. That someone only has the capacity to work as a garbage man or a store clerk–doesn’t mean they should be disqualified from earning a living wage and if our businesses won’t pay one–I am not opposed to my tax dollars helping that guy out. That’s a far cry from equality of outcome and it’s a far cry from socialism or communism–so please lets not throw out those baseless charges. If you throw them out please support with examples of the call for the abolition of private property or government ownership of the means of production.

Peace,
Mark
Mark just a couple of thoughts: I don’t know if a CEO is worth more today than in 1960 or 1970. But what is the solution? A government “compensation board” as was supposed to function for some of the bailed out companies? Didn’t work then, not sure it would ever work. Just as wage/price controls didn’t work. It’s very easy to point out problems but I have trouble thinking of a viable solution. I’d love to hear yours.

I do agree that there is a bit of cronyism in the boards and the executive teams. OTOH there have been many many high profile CEO firings so with the stock market as a balance, there is some accountability. Futher we’re talking about a mere handful of people in a country of 300 million. How many Jeffrey Imelts are there? I am not sure that the real problems can be solved by somehow limiting executive compensation.

I think a more serious problem is the taxpayer funded boondoggle a la Freddy and Fanny. It’s one thing if a private company decides to pay Mr Gotrocks multi millions. It’s quite another when the money is coming out of my hide. If GM or Apple or Walmart “overpays” its executives, people can choose not to buy the stock or the products. OTOH when the GOVERNMENT extracts tax dollars from hard working Americans to pay millions to a T&(%&(#&&($# like Franklin Raines it’s quite another. Now there is an area where we should exert government control since it’s government money being spent.

As to people objecting to social services while not objecting to “corporate welfare”, the reality is that we see the abuse of social services whereas the majority of Americans are not privy to an oil company’s tax returns. I know when I am in the grocery line behind someone who uses food stamps then pulls out a wad of cash to buy cigarettes and alcohol…well my blood boils. I don’t feel the same thing when I buy gas for my car. I don’t know what bennies Exxon received. As I said, I’m all for removing the susidies targeted to certain industries.

And let’s say turnabout is fair play…I never said I want people to starve in the streets 🙂 and I think the government has a role in what I call rewarding GOOD behavior…such as a responsible purchase of a home or making charitable deductions. What I do object to is the Social Services Industrial Complex playing Lady Bountiful with our tax dollars. A safety net, yes, a hammock no. When we keep rewarding bad behavior we get more of it. I think our social services industry has a vested interest in keeping people dependent. It might not be overt, but clearly our policies are structured to give people just enough to keep 'em wanting more but not enough of the right kind of support, while requiring some accountability, to move them up the ladder. Tax policy could serve to achieve these goals…but not under the current structure.

Lisa
 
Nothing you said here makes the slightest bit of sense nor is it true.
That I and my employer are two different entities has nothing to do with anything being discussed.
like if a $1 goes from you to him it is some how double tax if he says it is dividend but single taxed if he says it is salary
**Most corporations do NOT retain most earnings. **
really I never seen a type C which didn’t, could you name some major companies say in the Dow 30 which do not?
**Shareholders are NOT taxed on the corporation’s retained earnings. As you said **the corporation pays any taxes that it incurs. The shareholders pay taxes only on dividends received from the ownership of shares or the capital gains upon sale.
The subject is the money, not the entities. Double taxation refers to the dollars being taxed twice not the entities.
earlier you said all dollars were double taxed, so again why should only the double taxed dollars funneled through dividends be treated diffeent?

BTW:
  • 2/3 of corporations pay no taxes, including many of the largest companies
  • 2/3 of dividends are not taxable (they are paid into tax deferred plans)
  • Average tax rates paid by corporations on declared profits are close to 18% which is lower rate than millions of American
  • The top 400 American tax filers pay less than 18% US Federal Income tax which is lower rate than millions of American
I would love to know your qualifications for making such statements but better yet let’s get back to the actual thread.
Are you a Paulinista? You sound like one.
Lisa
I do not know, what is a Paulinista? Concerning qualifications, which probably should not be discussed, well lets start with my US income tax runs about 22.5% and when you add actual FICA to that it is greater than 40% up front and 8% consumption or 45% plus overall.
 
Mark just a couple of thoughts: I don’t know if a CEO is worth more today than in 1960 or 1970. But what is the solution? A government “compensation board” as was supposed to function for some of the bailed out companies? Didn’t work then, not sure it would ever work. Just as wage/price controls didn’t work. It’s very easy to point out problems but I have trouble thinking of a viable solution. I’d love to hear yours.
I am with you on the no government compensation boards–that definately wouldn’t work. I wish I had a solution. To even formulate a potential one would take more time than I have to review additional data to try to determine an underlying cause (alas no one will pay me to do that) of the rise in the ratio. Then maybe you could formulate a policy to reverse the trend. My concern is that people don’t even think about this. I want them to be aware. I’m guessing its a myriad of things. I like to think of myself as a proponent of free trade, but I am not for shipping jobs to Honduras if we are going to let children make the clothes or soccer balls in sweatshop like conditions–when we won’t allow it here. To me thats not free trade nor fair trade. It seems wrong to allow companies to escape regulation whether environmental or labor related by shipping jobs to countries without those regulations. I am guessing this may be a factor. The exporting of these good jobs has (1) eliminated many of the jobs and (2) held wages down for the jobs that remain (by threatening to export them) while there is no corresponding check on CEO compensation. That may be part of it.
I am not sure that the real problems can be solved by somehow limiting executive compensation.
You’re probably right but getting CEO compensation back do to a reasonable ratio when compared to the rank and file employee certainly couldn’t hurt–well at least I don’t think it would hurt.
As to people objecting to social services while not objecting to “corporate welfare”, the reality is that we see the abuse of social services whereas the majority of Americans are not privy to an oil company’s tax returns. I know when I am in the grocery line behind someone who uses food stamps then pulls out a wad of cash to buy cigarettes and alcohol…well my blood boils. I don’t feel the same thing when I buy gas for my car. I don’t know what bennies Exxon received. As I said, I’m all for removing the susidies targeted to certain industries.
Yes, I can understand why but I’d like your blood to boil when you fill up with gas also. I’d like people to think about the give aways to corporations too. And while I find myself irritated with the cigarettes or alcohol as you describe it–I also can understand–if your reduced to that and you don’t eat out anymore, you can’t go to the movies, etc. I’m not going to be overly upset with this one small vice or enjoyment–in what I am guessing is an otherwise pretty meager existence. I don’t know anything about their life other than the assumptions I am making because they are on assistence. I guess if anything I can be accussed of giving these people the benefit of the doubt–when quite possibly I shouldn’t. I just find it easier and better for my health and peace of mind. If they’re cheating me–that will be between them and God. I should probably strike the same attitude with those corporate executives who I am convinced are ripping me off or are knowingly selling me dangerous and defective products, or knowingly providing unsafe working conditions, but somehow I just can’t find the same charity in my heart for a guy trying to line his pockets as I can for the person on food stamps hanging on to one small pleasure in an otherwise dismal life. We all have our hot bottons.
And let’s say turnabout is fair play…I never said I want people to starve in the streets 🙂 and I think the government has a role in what I call rewarding GOOD behavior…such as a responsible purchase of a home or making charitable deductions. What I do object to is the Social Services Industrial Complex playing Lady Bountiful with our tax dollars. A safety net, yes, a hammock no. When we keep rewarding bad behavior we get more of it. I think our social services industry has a vested interest in keeping people dependent. It might not be overt, but clearly our policies are structured to give people just enough to keep 'em wanting more but not enough of the right kind of support, while requiring some accountability, to move them up the ladder. Tax policy could serve to achieve these goals…but not under the current structure.
🙂

Great line: safety net, yes, a hammock no. Agree with most of what you said. The only thing I might quible with–is the vested interest to keep them dependent. I think that we as citizens or more specially news agencies need will need to be more understanding–if we truly want to help them move up the ladder we need to accept that they will still be collecting benefits as they move up that ladder. Today the problem is the agency would be all over the news for giving benefits to someone who shouldn’t receive them. I remember a story from years ago–possibly the early Clinton years–about a woman on welfare. She was very frugal and from welfare and can collecting she saved something like $2,000 to try and send her child to college. Well instead of commending her frugality and enlisting her help to teach others how to do this same thing–they cancelled her benefits and wanted her to repay benefits. Here she was trying to move up but fear of public out cry over giving someone who saved up money benefits–stopped what should have been encouraged. We need to accept that this will happen as people move up and transition. I think our discussion which may be a bit off topic has run its course. My best to you.

Peace,
Mark
 
What is lacking in this equation is virtue. A republican government does not work in the absence of virtue.

“There need not be much integrity for a monarchical or despotic government to maintain or sustain itself. The force of the law in the one and the prince’s ever-raised arm in the other can rule or contain the whole”

“in a popular state there must be an additional spring, which is virtue. What I say is confirmed by the entire body of history and is quite in conformity with the nature of things. For it is clear that less virtue is needed in a monarchy, where the one who sees to the execution of the laws judges himself above the laws, than in a popular government, where the one who sees to the execution of the laws feels that he is subject to them himself and that he will bear their weight…But in a popular government when the laws have ceased to be executed, as this can come only from the corruption of the republic, the state is already lost”

Charles de Montesquieu

If this county wishes to survive as a republic, a revitalization of virtue is needed. Without it all attempts will fail.
 
What is lacking in this equation is virtue. A republican government does not work in the absence of virtue.

“There need not be much integrity for a monarchical or despotic government to maintain or sustain itself. The force of the law in the one and the prince’s ever-raised arm in the other can rule or contain the whole”

“in a popular state there must be an additional spring, which is virtue. What I say is confirmed by the entire body of history and is quite in conformity with the nature of things. For it is clear that less virtue is needed in a monarchy, where the one who sees to the execution of the laws judges himself above the laws, than in a popular government, where the one who sees to the execution of the laws feels that he is subject to them himself and that he will bear their weight…But in a popular government when the laws have ceased to be executed, as this can come only from the corruption of the republic, the state is already lost”

Charles de Montesquieu

If this county wishes to survive as a republic, a revitalization of virtue is needed. Without it all attempts will fail.
We aren’t a republic anymore. We became an empire a few generations ago. They just forgot to tell us, officially.
 
Saint Robert Bellarmine “On Dying Well” Part 1
CHAPTER V. THE FIFTH PRECEPT, IN WHICH THE DECEITFUL ERROR OF THE RICH OF THIS WORLD IS EXPOSED.
IN addition to what has been already said, I must add the refutation of a certain error very
prevalent among the rich of this world, and which greatly hinders them from living well and
dying well. The error consists in this: the rich suppose that the wealth they possess is
absolutely their own property, if justly acquired; and that therefore they may lawfully
spend, give away, or squander their money, and that no one can say to them, “Why do you do so? Why dress so richly? Why feast so sumptuously? Why so prodigal in supporting your dogs and hawks? Why do you spend so much money in gaming, or other such-like pleasures?” They will answer: “What is it to you? Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with my own?” Now, this error is doubtless most grievous and pernicious: for, granting that the “rich” are the masters of their own property with relation to other men; yet, with regard to God, they are not masters, but only administrators or stewards. This truth can be proved by many arguments. Hear the royal prophet: “The earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof: the world and all they that dwell therein.” (Psalm xxiii.) And again: " For all the beasts of the wood are mine: the cattle on the hills, and the oxen. If I should be hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fullness thereof." (Psalm xlix.) And in the first book of Paralipomenon, when David had offered for the building of the temple three thousand talents of gold and seven thousand talents of silver, and Parian marble in the greatest abundance; and when, moved by the example of the king, the princes of the tribes had offered five thousand talents of gold, and ten thousand of silver, and eighteen thousand of brass, and a hundred thousand of iron, then David said to God: “Thine, O Lord, is magnificence, and power, and glory, and victory: and to thee is praise; for all that is in heaven or earth is thine: thine is the kingdom, Lord, and thon art above all princes. Thine are riches, and thine is glory, thou hast dominion over all: in thy and is power and might: in thy hand greatness and the empire of all things. Who am I, what is my people, that we should be able to promise thee all these things? All things are thine; and we have given thee what we have received of thy hand.” (chap. xxix. 11, &c.) To these may be added the testimony of God Himself, who by Aggæus the prophet saith: “Mine is silver, and mine is gold.” This the Lord spoke, that the people might understand that for the new building of the temple nothing would be wanting, since He himself would order its erection, to whom belonged all the gold and silver in the world.
peace
 
Part 2

I shall add two more testimonies from the words of Christ, in the New Testament: " There
was a certain rich man who had a steward: and the same was accused unto him, that he had wasted his goods. And he called him, and said to him: How is it I hear this of thee? Give an account of thy stewardship: for now thou canst be steward no longer." (St. Luke xvi.) By the “rich man” is here meant God, who, as we have just said, crieth out by the prophet Aggæus:“Mine is silver, and mine is gold.” By the “steward” is to be understood a rich man, as the holy Fathers teach, St. Chrysostom, St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, Venerable Bede, besides Theophylact, and Euthymius, and others on this passage.
If the Gospel, then, is to be credited, every rich man of this world must acknowledge that
the riches he possesses, whether justly or unjustly acquired, are not his: that if they be
justly acquired, he is only the steward of them; if unjustly, that he is nothing but a thief and a robber. And since the rich man is not the master of the wealth he possesses, it follows that, when accused of injustice before God, God removes him from his stewardship, either by death or by want: such do the words signify, “Give an account of thy stewardship, for now thou canst be steward no longer.” God will never be in want of ways to reduce the rich to poverty, and thus to remove them from their stewardship: such as by shipwrecks, robberies, hail-storms, cankers, too much rain, drought, and many other kinds of afflictions so many voices of God exclaiming to the rich: “Thou canst be steward no longer.” But when, towards the end of the parable, our Lord says: “Make unto you friends of the mammon of iniquity, that when you shall fail, they may receive you into everlasting dwellings,” He does not mean that alms are to he given out of unjust riches, but of riches that are not riches, properly so speaking, but only the shadows of them. This is evidently the meaning from another passage in the same Gospel of St. Luke: " If then you have not been faithful in the unjust mammon, who will trust you with that which is the true?" The meaning of these words is: “If in the unjust mammon” that is, false riches “you have not been faithful” in giving liberally to the poor, “who will trust you” with true riches the riches of virtues, which make men truly rich? This is the explanation given by St. Cyprian, and also by St. Augustine in the second book of his Evangelical Questions, where he says that mammon signifies “riches;” which the foolish and wicked alone consider to be riches, whilst wise and good men despise them, and assert that spiritual gifts are alone to be considered true riches.
There is another passage in the same Gospel of St. Luke, which may be considered as a kind of commentary on the unjust steward: “There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen, and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores. Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table, and no one did give him; moreover, the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.” This Dives was certainly one of those who supposed he was master of his own money, and not a steward under God; and therefore he imagined not that he offended against God, when he was clothed in purple and linen, and feasted sumptuously every day, and had his dogs, and his buffoons, & c. For he perhaps said within himself: " I spend my own money, I do no injury to any one, I violate not the laws of God, I do not blaspheme nor swear, I observe the sabbath, I honour my parents, I do not kill, nor commit adultery, nor steal, nor bear false witness, nor do I covet my neighbour’s wife, or anything else." But if such was the case, why was he buried in hell? why tormented in the fire? We must then acknowledge that all those are deceived who suppose they are the “absolute” masters of their money; for if Dives had any more grievous sins to answer for, the Holy Scripture would certainly have mentioned them. But since nothing more has been added, we are given to understand that the superfluous adornment of his body with costly garments, and his daily magnificent banquets, and the multitude of his servants and dogs, whilst he had no compassion for the poor, was a sufficient cause of his condemnation to eternal torments. Let it, therefore, be a fixed rule for living well and dying well, often to consider and seriously to ponder on the account that must be given to God of our luxury in palaces, in gardens, in chariots, in the multitude of servants, in the splendour of dress, in banquets, in hoarding up riches, in unnecessary expenses, which injure a great multitude of the poor and sick, who stand in need of our superfluities; and who now cry to God, and in the day of judgment will not cease crying out until we, together with the rich man, shall be condemned to eternal flames.

peace
 
We aren’t a republic anymore. We became an empire a few generations ago. They just forgot to tell us, officially.
In a lot of ways you are right. We vote and feel good because we did so, and then go home and stop caring till the next time we vote and feel good about our participation in government. Our vote means less and less each time. We are definitely not at the top of slope about to slide down anymore. We are sliding. The question is what will we do about it. If we continue to allow virtue to go up in flames tyranny is inevitable because that will be the only way to ensure “fairness”. People will grab onto the idea of a virtuous tyrant equals a virtuous people. Venezuela is the perfect example. A lot of them love Chavez because they see him as this great virtuous leader who is setting things straight. Of course they have lost all their liberty…

The average percentage of income that is given to charity by American’s is somewhere between 1%-2%. That tells you everything you need to know about the state of things.
 
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