Is it acceptable to be a provider husband?

[Allegra]

So you know four carpenters in the Saint Louis area who have homes over 500,000!? And they did so in modern times on the sole wages the union gave them on one salary!?

I just don’t buy it. Sorry but I think in your zeal you overstated your case. I’ve posted the bottom and top ends and average of the job in question.
Now, out of curriosity I searched homes for sale 490,000 to 530,000 in Saint Louis. Any number of beds and any type of home. There were 7. 4 if you leave off condos. Certainly there are more homes of that value that are not on the market but as you can see, not many.
Now I understand part of the benifit of being a carpenter means you can build a house cheaply. But owning a 500000 home outright would be a rarity for even those who made 200000 a year. But let’s say it was paid off. It’s still averaging about 5000 tax money a year.
I have looked up carpenter jobs and I just don’t see it. Several for journeymen at roughly 45 a year.
You should read more of that thread it wasn’t just one ladies husband. Can’t find too many threads extolling the payday though. There was one 22 year old in St. Louis who said he had two kids and a boat but didn’t say much more than that. Looks like times are rough though. Plenty of people looking for work. It’s sad.

That is correct. I know for a fact that my step-father and my grandfather have never worked anything other than union contruction jobs, although they aren’t paid directly through the union, they’re paid through the construction companies they worked for. During the years my step-father was a foreman, he made six figures. Even now, his pension is more than my husband’s and my combined monthly income, and he is allowed to continue to work while still receiving the pension. So, obviously, it would be possible for him to support a family in a modest home with his income. He does not have a modest home, however. He built the home they currently live in himself and he sold the smaller home he previously built to get the funds to build the one they live in now. He did most of the work with friends or by himself. Sweat equity is worth a lot. They just had the house appraised because they are planning to sell it and it was valued at over 500K. My grandfather’s house is also about to go onto the market and it was appraised for higher, though it was built in a really fancy neighborhood.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Here is a 2007 article speaking to undocumented workers and unions. I’ll bet on the last 8 years it has gotten worse.
m.southcoasttoday.com/article/20070408/News/704080330

A few unions doing something like that does not equal most unions doing thing like that though. Also I hear that the construction unions on the east coast are a bit different from us on the west coast. We are more… laid back lol. I heard stories from our guys who have gone to the east coast and ran into mafia guys and so forth. It is not like that here.

Let me try to explain something. Do you know how sometimes non Catholics always like to bring up the sex abuse scandals in The Church? Some bad priests did some terrible things. But now to them ALL priests are terrible people because some did some bad things. And The Catholic Church is just a terrible thing because of what happened with some of its priests, Or someone that has had a bad experience with The Church now they absolutely are anti Catholic and look for anything unflattering to speak about against The Church while ignoring the good things The Church has done? Think about that for a minuet. I know you have had a bad experience with a union. I know unions have done bad things. But that does not mean all union or even most unions are bad. No earthly entity is perfect. Not even The Catholic Church has been spot free perfect in its past. Unions will never be perfect either. But sometimes they do a lot of good for people. Labor unions are responsible for the 40 hour work week and overtime. In that way unions have touched the lives of almost all american’s whether they know it or not. But some unions have done bad things, so now most unions are bad in your mind, with maybe a exception here or there? A couple articles about union carpenters being out of work and blaming the union, so now the union does not help people? Sorry for that person but over in Cali union Carpenters have so much work that I once got hired on a job as a carpenter even though I am a construction laborer because the carpenters never showed up to the job probably because work is booming for them so much here that they get to pick and choose which jobs they want to go to. Also out of the 3000 active members in my local only about 90 were on the out of work list last month. That is busy. I know those 90 folks want to get back to work and are probably grumbling that they have no work right now but what about the other 2910 people who are working? Disneyland is building “Star wars land” and using union guys to do it. A new football stadium in los angeles is being build and union guys are going to build it. There is work here. That is rough if there is less work for Carpenters in the mid west but here there is plenty of work. So consider the positive with the negative, not just the negative.

 

[bitterhope]

A few unions doing something like that does not equal most unions doing thing like that though. Also I hear that the construction unions on the east coast are a bit different from us on the west coast. We are more… laid back lol. I head stories from our guys who have gone to the east coast and ran into mafia guys and so forth. It is not like that here.

Let me try to explain something. Do you know how sometimes non Catholics always like to bring up the sex abuse scandals in The Church? Some bad priests did some terrible things. But now to them ALL priests are terrible people because some did some bad things. And The Catholic Church is just a terrible thing because of what happened with some of its priests, Or someone that has had a bad experience with The Church now they absolutely are anti Catholic and look for anything unflattering to speak about against The Church while ignoring the good things The Church has done? Think about that for a minuet. I know you have had a bad experience with a union. I know unions have done bad things. But that does not mean all union or even most unions are bad. No earthly entity is perfect. Not even The Catholic Church has been spot free perfect in its past. Unions will never be perfect either. But sometimes they do a lot of good for people. Labor unions are responsible for the 40 hour work week and overtime. In that way unions have touched the lives of almost all american’s whether they know it or not. But some unions have done bad things, so now MOST unions are bad? I do not think so…

Very good points.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Very good points.

I actually edited that post and added more points

 

[jmjZelie]

A few unions doing something like that does not equal most unions doing thing like that though. Also I hear that the construction unions on the east coast are a bit different from us on the west coast. We are more… laid back lol. I heard stories from our guys who have gone to the east coast and ran into mafia guys and so forth. It is not like that here.

Let me try to explain something. Do you know how sometimes non Catholics always like to bring up the sex abuse scandals in The Church? Some bad priests did some terrible things. But now to them ALL priests are terrible people because some did some bad things. And The Catholic Church is just a terrible thing because of what happened with some of its priests, Or someone that has had a bad experience with The Church now they absolutely are anti Catholic and look for anything unflattering to speak about against The Church while ignoring the good things The Church has done? Think about that for a minuet. I know you have had a bad experience with a union. I know unions have done bad things. But that does not mean all union or even most unions are bad. No earthly entity is perfect. Not even The Catholic Church has been spot free perfect in its past. Unions will never be perfect either. But sometimes they do a lot of good for people. Labor unions are responsible for the 40 hour work week and overtime. In that way unions have touched the lives of almost all american’s whether they know it or not. But some unions have done bad things, so now most unions are bad in your mind, with maybe a exception here or there? A couple articles about union carpenters being out of work and blaming the union, so now the union does not help people? Sorry for that person but over in Cali union Carpenters have so much work that I once got hired on a job as a carpenter even though I am a construction laborer because the carpenters never showed up to the job probably because work is booming for them so much here that they get to pick and choose which jobs they want to go to. Also out of the 3000 active members in my local only about 90 were on the out of work list last month. That is busy. I know those 90 folks want to get back to work and are probably grumbling that they have no work right now but what about the other 2910 people who are working? Disneyland is building “Star wars land” and using union guys to do it. A new football stadium in los angeles is being build and union guys are going to build it. There is work here. That is rough if there is less work for Carpenters in the mid west but here there is plenty of work. So consider the positive with the negative, not just the negative.

Hey, I didn’t realize you lived close to me until this post. I am in SoCal, too. LA and Orange County are really booming with construction jobs, it is true. Since I moved out here last year, I have been astonished at the beautiful and swift work the construction crews have been able to pull off. I have never seen anything like it before anywhere else I have lived.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

A few unions doing something like that does not equal most unions doing thing like that though. Also I hear that the construction unions on the east coast are a bit different from us on the west coast. We are more… laid back lol. I heard stories from our guys who have gone to the east coast and ran into mafia guys and so forth. It is not like that here.

Let me try to explain something. Do you know how sometimes non Catholics always like to bring up the sex abuse scandals in The Church? Some bad priests did some terrible things. But now to them ALL priests are terrible people because some did some bad things. And The Catholic Church is just a terrible thing because of what happened with some of its priests, Or someone that has had a bad experience with The Church now they absolutely are anti Catholic and look for anything unflattering to speak about against The Church while ignoring the good things The Church has done? Think about that for a minuet. I know you have had a bad experience with a union. I know unions have done bad things. But that does not mean all union or even most unions are bad. No earthly entity is perfect. Not even The Catholic Church has been spot free perfect in its past. Unions will never be perfect either. But sometimes they do a lot of good for people. Labor unions are responsible for the 40 hour work week and overtime. In that way unions have touched the lives of almost all american’s whether they know it or not. But some unions have done bad things, so now most unions are bad in your mind, with maybe a exception here or there? A couple articles about union carpenters being out of work and blaming the union, so now the union does not help people? Sorry for that person but over in Cali union Carpenters have so much work that I once got hired on a job as a carpenter even though I am a construction laborer because the carpenters never showed up to the job probably because work is booming for them so much here that they get to pick and choose which jobs they want to go to. Also out of the 3000 active members in my local only about 90 were on the out of work list last month. That is busy. I know those 90 folks want to get back to work and are probably grumbling that they have no work right now but what about the other 2910 people who are working? Disneyland is building “Star wars land” and using union guys to do it. A new football stadium in los angeles is being build and union guys are going to build it. There is work here. That is rough if there is less work for Carpenters in the mid west but here there is plenty of work. So consider the positive with the negative, not just the negative.

I’ve posted a lot of numbers and sites. Others just anecdotes. The fact you are in so cal only makes the problem harder. A sole provider for a family in so cal!?
Geesh! Even my provider spouse doesn’t make that kind of dough…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

That is correct. I know for a fact that my step-father and my grandfather have never worked anything other than union contruction jobs, although they aren’t paid directly through the union, they’re paid through the construction companies they worked for. During the years my step-father was a foreman, he made six figures. Even now, his pension is more than my husband’s and my combined monthly income, and he is allowed to continue to work while still receiving the pension. So, obviously, it would be possible for him to support a family in a modest home with his income. He does not have a modest home, however. He built the home they currently live in himself and he sold the smaller home he previously built to get the funds to build the one they live in now. He did most of the work with friends or by himself. Sweat equity is worth a lot. They just had the house appraised because they are planning to sell it and it was valued at over 500K. My grandfather’s house is also about to go onto the market and it was appraised for higher, though it was built in a really fancy neighborhood.

The statistical anomaly is shocking!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I can tell you that no, I really don’t care about anyone’s legal status in the US so no it doesn’t matter to me one little bit. It’s not something I really care about or wonder about. And every carpenter I have ever met has supported his family quite well as a sole provider. They’ve all been home owners. You seem quite obsessed about all this. Why is it that you are so obsessed with the income of carpenters and legal status of union workers?

I don’t know why I’m so obsessed about it. Maybe it’s just annoying that people ignore facts. Maybe it’s the frustration of knowing people are (gasp) wrong…
It really is no big deal when you think about it. Unless you are a carpenter looking for a family and wish to support them while losing work to cheaper laborers who flood the market…

 

[jmjZelie]

I’ve posted a lot of numbers and sites. Others just anecdotes. The fact you are in so cal only makes the problem harder. A sole provider for a family in so cal!?
Geesh! Even my provider spouse doesn’t make that kind of dough…

It is actually doable. We are a single-income family in Orange County. There are many such families here. In fact, our entire Catholic homeschool group are single-wage families. You just have to find the less expensive areas if you want to buy a home, or choose to rent a home in a more expensive area. It is very family friendly here, too.

 

[bitterhope]

One thing about statistics when it comes to construction, trucking and other similar industries–some people are self starters and are able to make a great deal of money where a large chunk either aren’t self starters or make poor decisions about their job. All workers are grouped together and unfortunately there are quite a few “bad workers” or however you want to put it. Good workers tend to congregate together so Allegra knowing so many high earners in carpentry isn’t surprising to me.

Many things go into the ability to be a sole financial provider for a family. You mentioned earlier in the thread having a tight budget with a family of 7 and a six figure income. Lots of us live comfortably on far less.

Before you jump me for income bashing, I assure you I’m not. There’s lots of people at all income brackets struggling and in debt. It’s not always things we can control. It’s not always due to extravagant lifestyle or bad choices. I have, however, met a good deal of one income families in so cal, DC, and other high cost of living areas. It can and does work for many families. Construction is a good industry with employment opportunities across the nation if one finds they need/want a change.

As to the undocumented workers, you could start another thread to debate that. I don’t agree with you but I’m sure many others do. I just don’t see how it relates to a husband being a provider or why you feel it has any impact on this discussion. I can tell you that there are many misconceptions about immigration in general and the laws in the US are outdated and discriminatory.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

One thing about statistics when it comes to construction, trucking and other similar industries–some people are self starters and are able to make a great deal of money where a large chunk either aren’t self starters or make poor decisions about their job. All workers are grouped together and unfortunately there are quite a few “bad workers” or however you want to put it. Good workers tend to congregate together so Allegra knowing so many high earners in carpentry isn’t surprising to me.

Many things go into the ability to be a sole financial provider for a family. You mentioned earlier in the thread having a tight budget with a family of 7 and a six figure income. Lots of us live comfortably on far less.

Before you jump me for income bashing, I assure you I’m not. There’s lots of people at all income brackets struggling and in debt. It’s not always things we can control. It’s not always due to extravagant lifestyle or bad choices. I have, however, met a good deal of one income families in so cal, DC, and other high cost of living areas. It can and does work for many families. Construction is a good industry with employment opportunities across the nation if one finds they need/want a change.

As to the undocumented workers, you could start another thread to debate that. I don’t agree with you but I’m sure many others do. I just don’t see how it relates to a husband being a provider or why you feel it has any impact on this discussion. I can tell you that there are many misconceptions about immigration in general and the laws in the US are outdated and discriminatory.

That is all true. Sure.
Good points.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Ok one more point,
And lest I be accused of wasting time on this I am incorporating these sites and points into our school day. Seton doesn’t have economics for grade school. So…
keep in mind the idea of “provider” is being discussed.
Here are some carpenter jobs in LA
indeed.com/salary/q-Carpenter-l-Los-Angeles,-CA.html

Here are the WIC welfare requirements
cdph.ca.gov/programs/wicworks/Pages/WICEligibilityAssessment03.aspx

Now perhaps the provider in question is really good at nfp or is just too tired to provide physically after a long day n the job site…
But it is worth noting that the state becomes the provider in most of these situations. In fact not one of those jobs would support my family. And we desire a higher bar than “just above WIC”.

My point is that a single provider home is darn hard! And it is made even harder if your job and locale make it less economically feasible.
I thank God every day for our blessed situation, but I am careful not to assume others can or should do it this way. Each family must decide what is best. What is thier vocation and what must be done. Many men feel they should provide and I have seen what that does to them when they need help.
My wife doesn’t have to worry about finding a job when this one ends, though she works with several foreign workers, they are scientists or doctors, she does not have to worry about “wages”. Is it perfect? No. Is it a struggle? yup! But I’m not going to tell others they have to do it a certain way. Nor do I want my son or daughters to think less of a person who cannot be the sole provider. Even when choosing a mate.

 

[bitterhope]

I homeschool too so yeah, we do things like that as a family too.

It is hard having a sole provider and that’s part of why we chose to go back in the military and stay with this. Our income is stable. Job security is unbeatable, and health care coverage is beyond belief. The biggest draw back for us was the income. He makes much less as an active duty soldier than he made working horse farms, tobacco fields and construction. Income isn’t the only thing to consider. We have no problem living the way we do and I think many other families wouldn’t either if it weren’t for society loudly voicing the fact that we are wrong for “choosing” poverty. Yes, we are qualified for WIC as most military families are but we have not used the program. We also qualify for food stamps (SNAP) and for medical cards. Until my husband became a citizen, even though he had already deployed 3 times for this country, we could not receive benefits due to immigration status. Permanent residents must have a sponsor who meet federal income limits and those sponsors are required to cover them so they don’t receive benefits. Honestly in the past we were in much greater need for help but couldn’t get it. Now we don’t see the reason to apply. Our kids are well cared for, happy, well adjusted, not malnourished or hungry, and we are not drowning in debt or behind on obligations. If it got hard I might apply but I doubt it. My husband would never go for someone else paying his way through life or supporting his family for him.

Many people I know find they are happy with less in life but become embarrassed when strangers or friends or family members point out to them how different they are living and make it out to be wrong or crazy or inferior. They come to believe having a parent/spouse at home is an impossible to achieve dream. It really isn’t.

The opposite can happen where they want to go to work out of desperation but think it is impossible to get a job that pays enough that it is worth working. There are channels can go through to secure childcare but somehow these things are beneath them or only for people without their level of education or whatever. There are jobs to add income and to give a person a break from the home but they remain open because people decide it’s not the job they want and they only want this particular job with these set hours at this income. Usually life doesn’t work that way. Any income is better than none. Some time away from home is better than none. But people get into all or nothing thinking and only want instant success. If it is just a break from home, volunteering is ideal. Usually you can set your own days and hours and many organizations provide free childcare while you are volunteering. Day care co-ops are available many places as well. You get one free hour of child care for each 30 mins-1 hour of service. Many older ladies missing their kids and grand kids are thrilled to become adoptive grandmas and often watch kids on little to no notice. Most of the time they ask for nothing in return.

There are so many options if people are willing to let go of pride. I’m not saying pride is the only reason a family would need a higher income but it contributes to society as a whole. People get trapped into all or nothing thinking and that’s beneath me and mine thinking and it holds people back. I would rather take a job for $2.50 an hour after expenses than have $0 an hour when my family needs a little extra. If I needed a break for a few hours I would rather put a little work into making that happen rather than just complain it is difficult.

Hoosier Daddy, I think you realize better than most on this site that the way even those of us below the poverty line in modern day America live is still better than middle class in many countries. We do t really have to achieve high income levels to provide a life worth living. I know you know this. Everything beyond basic necessities is better than the majority of the world live. That’s not saying it isn’t alright to have more, just that it’s not truly needed and it’s no ones place to try to convince others that they are wrong for not seeing more as better. That is very personal and just as the couple should decide their family size if they are able, they also can choose how their family is run, and how much money and goods their family needs to do that.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I homeschool too so yeah, we do things like that as a family too.

It is hard having a sole provider and that’s part of why we chose to go back in the military and stay with this. Our income is stable. Job security is unbeatable, and health care coverage is beyond belief. The biggest draw back for us was the income. He makes much less as an active duty soldier than he made working horse farms, tobacco fields and construction. Income isn’t the only thing to consider. We have no problem living the way we do and I think many other families wouldn’t either if it weren’t for society loudly voicing the fact that we are wrong for “choosing” poverty. Yes, we are qualified for WIC as most military families are but we have not used the program. We also qualify for food stamps (SNAP) and for medical cards. Until my husband became a citizen, even though he had already deployed 3 times for this country, we could not receive benefits due to immigration status. Permanent residents must have a sponsor who meet federal income limits and those sponsors are required to cover them so they don’t receive benefits. Honestly in the past we were in much greater need for help but couldn’t get it. Now we don’t see the reason to apply. Our kids are well cared for, happy, well adjusted, not malnourished or hungry, and we are not drowning in debt or behind on obligations. If it got hard I might apply but I doubt it. My husband would never go for someone else paying his way through life or supporting his family for him.

Many people I know find they are happy with less in life but become embarrassed when strangers or friends or family members point out to them how different they are living and make it out to be wrong or crazy or inferior. They come to believe having a parent/spouse at home is an impossible to achieve dream. It really isn’t.

The opposite can happen where they want to go to work out of desperation but think it is impossible to get a job that pays enough that it is worth working. There are channels can go through to secure childcare but somehow these things are beneath them or only for people without their level of education or whatever. There are jobs to add income and to give a person a break from the home but they remain open because people decide it’s not the job they want and they only want this particular job with these set hours at this income. Usually life doesn’t work that way. Any income is better than none. Some time away from home is better than none. But people get into all or nothing thinking and only want instant success. If it is just a break from home, volunteering is ideal. Usually you can set your own days and hours and many organizations provide free childcare while you are volunteering. Day care co-ops are available many places as well. You get one free hour of child care for each 30 mins-1 hour of service. Many older ladies missing their kids and grand kids are thrilled to become adoptive grandmas and often watch kids on little to no notice. Most of the time they ask for nothing in return.

There are so many options if people are willing to let go of pride. I’m not saying pride is the only reason a family would need a higher income but it contributes to society as a whole. People get trapped into all or nothing thinking and that’s beneath me and mine thinking and it holds people back. I would rather take a job for $2.50 an hour after expenses than have $0 an hour when my family needs a little extra. If I needed a break for a few hours I would rather put a little work into making that happen rather than just complain it is difficult.

Hoosier Daddy, I think you realize better than most on this site that the way even those of us below the poverty line in modern day America live is still better than middle class in many countries. We do t really have to achieve high income levels to provide a life worth living. I know you know this. Everything beyond basic necessities is better than the majority of the world live. That’s not saying it isn’t alright to have more, just that it’s not truly needed and it’s no ones place to try to convince others that they are wrong for not seeing more as better. That is very personal and just as the couple should decide their family size if they are able, they also can choose how their family is run, and how much money and goods their family needs to do that.

We are in 100 percent agreement

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

I’ve posted a lot of numbers and sites. Others just anecdotes. The fact you are in so cal only makes the problem harder. A sole provider for a family in so cal!?
Geesh! Even my provider spouse doesn’t make that kind of dough…

People do it though, you seem to have a hard time believing that. Not only folks with 6 figure incomes have children and are able to make it work even with only the father working. Just because you can’t imagine supporting a family here making 50k to 90k a year here, you think it is not done?

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

It is actually doable. We are a single-income family in Orange County. There are many such families here. In fact, our entire Catholic homeschool group are single-wage families. You just have to find the less expensive areas if you want to buy a home, or choose to rent a home in a more expensive area. It is very family friendly here, too.

People always find ways to make it work here even though the cost of living is high. But yeah, everyone moves to either riverside or san bernardino county when they actually want to but a house.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

People do it though, you seem to have a hard time believing that. Not only folks with 6 figure incomes have children and are able to make it work even with only the father working. Just because you can’t imagine supporting a family here making 50k to 90k a year here, you think it is not done?

Most of the other guys in my office relocated to Texas from SoCal. The biggest budget buster is housing, which is about 70% higher for a family of 5 in California compared to Texas. So for the cost of what they used to pay for rent on a small house in a less desirable neighborhood in SoCal they can now afford to buy a McMansion in a master planned community in Texas. I have no doubt that it could be done but I don’t see it as being worthwhile unless all your family is already in the area.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Most of the other guys in my office relocated to Texas from SoCal. The biggest budget buster is housing, which is about 70% higher for a family of 5 in California compared to Texas. So for the cost of what they used to pay for rent on a small house in a less desirable neighborhood in SoCal they can now afford to buy a McMansion in a master planned community in Texas. I have no doubt that it could be done but I don’t see it as being worthwhile unless all your family is already in the area.

Buying a house here is not a good idea. Everyone I know is moving to neighboring counties even just to rent. I will probably do the same if I ever start a family. Don’t get me wrong, it is definitely expensive here and tough for a lot of familys. But I know people with 3 or more kids in one or two bedroom apartments. If someone thinks only a big house and a SUV is acceptable if you have more than one child then yeah they probably will not be able to live here.

 

[Xantippe]

Most of the other guys in my office relocated to Texas from SoCal. The biggest budget buster is housing, which is about 70% higher for a family of 5 in California compared to Texas. So for the cost of what they used to pay for rent on a small house in a less desirable neighborhood in SoCal they can now afford to buy a McMansion in a master planned community in Texas. I have no doubt that it could be done but I don’t see it as being worthwhile unless all your family is already in the area.

Beware Texas property taxes though–I’ve heard they often catch transplants by surprise.

(We pay around 2% of property value a year.)

 

[Xantippe]

Buying a house here is not a good idea. Everyone I know is moving to neighboring counties even just to rent. I will probably do the same if I ever start a family. Don’t get me wrong, it is definitely expensive here and tough for a lot of familys. But I know people with 3 or more kids in one or two bedroom apartments. If someone thinks only a big house and a SUV is acceptable if you have more than one child then yeah they probably will not be able to live here.

What kind of public school does that provide?

The tough thing about high cost-of-living areas for families is usually the schools–the good ones are often very, very good and the bad ones are very, very bad.